Hamas Wants Civilian Casualties

[boloboffin]

I thought we were discussing that video? Does the video go on after 15 seconds and the the other child is picked up as well?

This is exactly why I say a plague on both these houses. Most people defending one side or the other has to play such games.

You don't know the video does any such thing, and neither do I. Have fun justifying Hamas of the gaps.

 

[Norseman]

Here is the latest development in the investigation being done by IDF:

Investigation shows errant mortar hit UN building

 

[a_unique_person]

This is exactly why I say a plague on both these houses. Most people defending one side or the other has to play such games.

You don't know the video does any such thing, and neither do I. Have fun justifying Hamas of the gaps.

Excuse me, when did I justify Hamas? I have said before, all armed forces lie, it's a part of warfare. More reporters would help, but Israel will not let them in.

 

[a_unique_person]

Here is the latest development in the investigation being done by IDF:

Investigation shows errant mortar hit UN building

Haaretz is one source I find to be one of the more reliable and balanced ones. The IDF is admitting they should not have used a mortar in those circumstances, Hamas inflated the casualty figures.

 

[WildCat]

Do you understand the distinction between civilians voluntarily placing themselves in the line of fire, as the speaker in your video appears to be claiming they have done, and combatants using civilians or other combatants as shields without their consent?

For example, placing a POW camp in a munitions factory to deter enemy bombing would be a war crime.

For women to voluntarily stand next to a political leader while he gives a speech to deter assassination attempts would not be a war crime.

Sorry gdnp, but children cannot consent to be used as a human shield.

And as oppressed as women are in Islamist societies I doubt they can give consent either.

 

[gdnp]

And here:



Hamas and the Palestinians supporting them would not create human shields if they knew Israel was specifically targeting civilians. It is Israel's reluctance to kill civilians that make strategies like this work.

As I said before, this appears to be civilians voluntarily placing themselves in the line of fire to deter an Israeli attack. They do so at their own peril. This is not a war crime if they do so by their own free will. Allowing children to be used in this way, however, is reprehensible as they cannot consent.

Sorry gdnp, but children cannot consent to be used as a human shield.

Thus my statement about "women", not "women and children".

And as oppressed as women are in Islamist societies I doubt they can give consent either.

Well, fortunately or unfortunately, it is not up to you.

 

[WildCat]

I'm gonna have my arabic speaking friend translate that. I expect some errors.

How's that translation coming along parky?

 

[gtc]

This is not a war crime if they do so by their own free will.

I believe that I read that asking for volunteers to act as a human sheild is a war crime.

 

[gdnp]

I believe that I read that asking for volunteers to act as a human sheild is a war crime.

That I have never heard, but it may be so. This seems to be a gray area, especially since a strong case has been made that Israel's policy of targeted killings is a form of extrajudicial execution and thus a war crime in itself. I can see that asking for civilians to stand next to a rocket launcher to deter Israeli response would be a war crime, but is asking civilians to occupy the house of a suicide bomber's family to prevent Israel from destroying that house a war crime? I don't think so. Since the destruction of the family's house is a form of collective punishment and thus illegal, I would consider this a form of legal protest attempting to deter an illegal act.

 

[Thunder]

How's that translation coming along parky?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-...wthread.php?p=4338489&feature=player_embedded

"Hi Alan. this is a video and translation of a Hamas speech on an Israeli web site. they claim to translate "hate" speech from Palestinians.

If you are comfortable doing it, could you watch the video and let me know if the translation is correct? I totally understand if you dont want to do it..but thanks if you do."


Email has been sent. I cant make him do it. He is a former Marine, of Saudi descent, and from the line of Muhammed. He is a true American.

 

[Thunder]

Here is the latest development in the investigation being done by IDF:

Investigation shows errant mortar hit UN building

I have a friend who used to work for the CIA and the DOD. When the USA bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade I asked him about this.

He basically told me "The United States military does not make mistakes like this".

I think the same can go for Israel.

 

[Tailgater]

I have a friend who used to work for the CIA and the DOD. When the USA bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade I asked him about this.

He basically told me "The United States military does not make mistakes like this".

I think the same can go for Israel.

So, you agree with the CT that the UN intentionally bombed the embassy?

 

[gtc]

According to ynet:

IDF forces operating in Gaza on Sunday uncovered an explosive device rigged with a timer that hidden in a Palestinian school. A fuse attached to the explosives extended to a zoo located dozens of yards away.

The soldiers managed to neutralize the bomb before it went off. Numerous weapons, including RPG launchers, grenades and AK-47 assault rifles were found inside the school.

And UNIFIL has arrested a man who shot over the Syrian border into Israel.

That I have never heard, but it may be so. This seems to be a gray area, especially since a strong case has been made that Israel's policy of targeted killings is a form of extrajudicial execution and thus a war crime in itself. I can see that asking for civilians to stand next to a rocket launcher to deter Israeli response would be a war crime, but is asking civilians to occupy the house of a suicide bomber's family to prevent Israel from destroying that house a war crime? I don't think so. Since the destruction of the family's house is a form of collective punishment and thus illegal, I would consider this a form of legal protest attempting to deter an illegal act.

I don't know the legal situation but standing in a house that does not contain militants sounds different to standing near a militant or a rocket launcher.

 

[Thunder]

So, you agree with the CT that the UN intentionally bombed the embassy?

It wasnt the UN. It was the USA.

 

[Tailgater]

It wasnt the UN. It was the USA.

Fine. The US then. You still didn't answer the question.

 

[Thunder]

I believe what my friend, a former CIA and DOD employee, told me.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I believe what my friend, a former CIA and DOD employee, told me.

Yeah, and I once talked to a guy whose "friend" gave him a video that was uncovered by hackers which proved that the United States is renting it's total land from Britain and that Barack Obama, whom he described as a typical n****r, is planning on returning the US to Britain during his presidency. Oh but he can't show us the video and he shouldn't have told us about it either.

So tell me is your friend giving a statement of opinion or does he claim to have a secret video proving that the US purposely bombed a Chinese embassy?

 

[dirtywick]

So tell me is your friend giving a statement of opinion or does he claim to have a secret video proving that the US purposely bombed a Chinese embassy?

It doesn't matter. Claiming any military to be infallible on any level is ridiculous on it's face. At least to me it is anyway.

 

[Thunder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-...wthread.php?p=4338489&feature=player_embedded

"Hi Alan. this is a video and translation of a Hamas speech on an Israeli web site. they claim to translate "hate" speech from Palestinians.

If you are comfortable doing it, could you watch the video and let me know if the translation is correct? I totally understand if you dont want to do it..but thanks if you do."


Email has been sent. I cant make him do it. He is a former Marine, of Saudi descent, and from the line of Muhammed. He is a true American.

ok. he just told me he does not speak arabic. maybe i heard him speaking farsi or berber. sorry about that.

Yup. he speaks Moroccan. my guess was close. =)

 

[Darth Rotor]

No he doesn't. His arguments are nonsense. And I've shown that repeatedly.

Not that I've noticed, but don't let that stop you.

The reasoning power that the safety, and in reality the deaths, of 30 innocent civilians are worthy sacrifices for the greater good when it was a couple of hamas fighters shooting at the IDF is not reasonable reasoning power. That some people here are not recognizing is that those Palestinian people are real human beings with feelings.

Who does not realize that in Gaza there are over a million human beings, some of whom support and some of whom do not? Names, please?

Your argument is so transparently biased. The IDF are also combat elements. Are you suggesting that they also should all be be taken out to ensure the shooting stops?

Question, Tim: Shooting stops when someone wins, or when both sides pick up guitars and sing Kumbaya?

Stop looking at this as an issue of Good v. evil where the IDF are good and Hamas are Evil.

Stop lying, Tim. I am not so doing. You may be, but I am not. Why are you doing this "good versus evil" crap regarding Gaza?

It doesn't work like that. Both sides are fighters.

No question of that.

Neither side is any less evil than the other.

You are the one appealing to good and evil. I am not. There is a reason I don't. Why, Tim, did you raise that when I didn't? Trying to construct a strawman to burn, Tim?

This violence isn't dependent upon Hamas stopping shooting. it's dependent on BOTH SIDES Stopping shooting.

There is some truth in this: the war continues as long as the shooting continues. Question is, when do you think this war started? In December of 2008, or sometime before that?

The IDF could have stopped shooting and those 30 innocent Palestinians would still be alive now.

And Hamas (and as I understand it, others parties as well) could have not shot rockets at Israel. They did. *shrugs* I think they were under any illusions as to what Israel's eventual response would be.

Don't tell me to use a little reasoning power that is biased towards the IDF.

So far, your reasoning is overwhelmed by a lot of hot air, but at least it isn't absent. This is a good thing.

I'd ask you to consider the conditions the two sides have stated (whether or not they are lying is another matter) about their terms for a cease fire are equally reasonable. If yes, why?
If no, why?

DR