Moderated Steel structures cannot globally collapse due to gravity alone

[Heiwa]

The ability to cover up mistakes - or worse - also represents a form of power. Maybe not the happy kind of legitimacy/power described in civics text books, but power nevertheless.

It is much we foreigners do not understand about US. You elect a new president ... and then it takes 11 weeks to change president. Here it takes 1 day. Or the US banks. They lend money at 1% interest! But where does it come from? China? OK, before stupid Americans saved money in the bank and recieved 3% interest and could borrow the same money back at 6%, then they saved money at the bank at 0% and it was stolen ... and nobody reacts!
Like the WTC collapses. Steel structures cannot globally collapse due to gravity alone ... and when they explode in mid-air, US experts confirm this happens every time. No need to analyse in depth! You do not need carrots or sticks or deception to run such a country. Luckily it will not last much longer. Bye, bye, USA!

Split from: A question for debunkers, inspired by Chomsky:

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode

 

[Bell]

It is much we foreigners do not understand about US. You elect a new president ... and then it takes 11 weeks to change president. Here it takes 1 day. Or the US banks. They lend money at 1% interest! But where does it come from? China? OK, before stupid Americans saved money in the bank and recieved 3% interest and could borrow the same money back at 6%, then they saved money at the bank at 0% and it was stolen ... and nobody reacts!

Where do you live Heiwa? In some banana republic?

Like the WTC collapses. Steel structures cannot globally collapse due to gravity alone ... and when they explode in mid-air, US experts confirm this happens every time. No need to analyse in depth! You do not need carrots or sticks or deception to run such a country. Luckily it will not last much longer. Bye, bye, USA!

Every building can collapse due to gravity. Even without mid-air explosions. Can also happen in Asia, Africa, South America, Antarctica, Europe and Australia.

 

[Corsair 115]

Every building can collapse due to gravity. Even without mid-air explosions. Can also happen in Asia, Africa, South America, Antarctica, Europe and Australia.

Indeed. Collapses happen frequently after earthquakes, for example.

 

[Heiwa]

Where do you live Heiwa? In some banana republic?



Every building can collapse due to gravity. Even without mid-air explosions. Can also happen in Asia, Africa, South America, Antarctica, Europe and Australia.

Sorry, steel structures do not collapse due to gravity and local failures - too much redundancy built into them.

 

[Heiwa]

Indeed. Collapses happen frequently after earthquakes, for example.

Sorry, steel structures do not collapse due to gravity and local failures - too much redundancy built into them. That's why I lived in such a building in Japan several years and was frequently shaken by earth quakes.

PS - I was then teaching Japanese the use of computer beam and FE analysis of steel structures. They did it long hand - works too. Same result. But computers are faster.

 

[240-185]

That's why I lived in such a building in Japan several years and was frequently shaken by earth quakes.

I never lived in Japan, but I can tell that buildings have sophisticated foundations, so they receive limited damage when an earthquake occurs. It's not due to the structures, Einstein.

And what makes steel structures collapsing? Flying Spaghetti Monster?

 

[dtugg]

PS - I was then teaching Japanese the use of computer beam and FE analysis of steel structures. They did it long hand - works too. Same result. But computers are faster.

Did you tell them to just model the structures using pizza boxes?

 

[Heiwa]

I never lived in Japan, but I can tell that buildings have sophisticated foundations, so they receive limited damage when an earthquake occurs. It's not due to the structures, Einstein.

And what makes steel structures collapsing? Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Good, you think that buildings with sophisticated foundations do not collapse due to earthquakes. It may not be true though.

Re steel structures - can you give an example of one that globally collapsed due to some local failures and that gravity alone then destroyed everything else - globally? Do not suggest WTC1, 2 and 7. Look further than the ears of your horse, cowboy!

 

[Alt+F4]

Sorry, steel structures do not collapse due to gravity and local failures - too much redundancy built into them.

So steel is the only substance on earth that is impervious to gravity?

 

[Klimax]

Re steel structures - can you give an example of one that globally collapsed due to some local failures and that gravity alone then destroyed everything else - globally? Do not suggest WTC1, 2 and 7. Look further than the ears of your horse, cowboy!

Who said,that structure would collapse due to gravity and small local failures??? In recent threads resident experts had established that with only impact of plane,structure would not fail.You need fire to weaken steel.

And have not you created a strawman? (Aircraft impact is not localized,but non-fatal mostly)

And then there were examples of fire-only colapses,since gravity-only colapses need bad design or material.(Based upon my understanding... )

 

[Stupid]

Re steel structures - can you give an example of one that globally collapsed due to some local failures and that gravity alone then destroyed everything else - globally? Do not suggest WTC1, 2 and 7. Look further than the ears of your horse, cowboy!

Here's one:
"The Skyline Plaza Apartments in Fairfax County, Va., after a 1973 progressive collapse that occurred during construction of the 24th floor. The collapse involved the full height of the tower, and falling debris also caused the horizontal progressive collapse of an entire parking garage under construction adjacent to the tower. Fourteen workers were killed, 34 workers were injured."

http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/861/861pubs/collapse/

=S=

 

[twinstead]

Wow. NIST has to even set up fake workshops on progressive collapse. When those folks learn that they're impossible, especially with steel structures, they're going to want their money back BIG TIME!

 

[Heiwa]

Here's one:
"The Skyline Plaza Apartments in Fairfax County, Va., after a 1973 progressive collapse that occurred during construction of the 24th floor. The collapse involved the full height of the tower, and falling debris also caused the horizontal progressive collapse of an entire parking garage under construction adjacent to the tower. Fourteen workers were killed, 34 workers were injured."

http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/861/861pubs/collapse/

=S=

Thanks for links. No global collapses of steel structures there. Some cast reinforced concrete structures, with local damages yes, steel structures, no.

 

[Brainache]

Is Heiwa seriously saying that if something is made of steel it can't fall down?

That bolts and welds can never fail?

That fire doesn't weaken steel?

I wonder what Chomsky would say...

 

[Stupid]

Is Heiwa seriously saying that if something is made of steel it can't fall down?

I believe that is what Heiwa is hinting at.
If this is so, then maybe we can dispense with all these structural codes, material's tolerances, and load calculations....as long as it's built of steel.

I'm sarcastic.
But I think steel buildings are engineered to support their upper loads, not designed to "catch" their upper load, if one or two mid-floors fail.

=S=

 

[funk de fino]

Thanks for links. No global collapses of steel structures there. Some cast reinforced concrete structures, with local damages yes, steel structures, no.

I have showed you this before.




Steel frame, fought fire, collapsed in a couple of hours. Cause of collapse = fire. Building is now gone.

 

[Architect]

Thanks for links. No global collapses of steel structures there. Some cast reinforced concrete structures, with local damages yes, steel structures, no.

Sir, I have two - yes two - books in the case behind me that explore building/structure collapses, including those fabricated in steel. And none due to fire, IIRC.

 

[Heiwa]

Is Heiwa seriously saying that if something is made of steel it can't fall down?

That bolts and welds can never fail?

That fire doesn't weaken steel?

I wonder what Chomsky would say...

No, I just say that local failures (eg due local heating, weakining of a part, bolt or weld failures) in a steel structure do not produce global collapse of the complete structure (at free fall acceleration). Local failures only produce load transfers and higher stressed and maybe deformed, adjacent parts and further destruction is arrested. It is called redundancy. I have explained it at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist7.htm ; remove a complete, internal column and assume that the load carried by this column is transferred to adjacent columns, the complete load transfer increases stresses in adjacent columns only from 30 to 37.5 % yield stress. No way that adjacent, intact structure will fail and start a global collapse due to a serious, local failure in one part! And it applies to all similar steel structures.
I wonder (in other threads) how NIST could produce its report of WTC7. The software used by NIST can only do static analysis and it seems the analysis is wrong at step 1; the first local failure and associated load transfers. So the NIST report is just propaganda. ASCE should protest, but they lack moral fibre, it seems.

 

[Heiwa]

I have showed you this before.


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1824447b1cfcfa7614.jpg[/qimg]

Steel frame, fought fire, collapsed in a couple of hours. Cause of collapse = fire. Building is now gone.

Yes, a steel framed hall, light weight roof structure has sagged due to heat, walls have deformed and no global collapse anywhere. I can show similar examples of sport halls where the steel framed roof structure has collapsed due overload, e.g. too much heavy snow. But the walls remained, etc.

 

[Architect]

Well, firstly I note with some humour and no great surprise that you've drawn back from your initial "no steel structure anywhere, ever, in the whole wide world" position. Really, a career in politics clearly awaits.

Secondly, the sports halls you refer to had independent wall structures - assuming that they're the ones in the same books I have - and hence the comparison you make to them remaining standing is meaningless.

Let me repeat that: meaningless.