JihadJane
not a camel
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Thanks for the fashion suggestion but yellow doesn't really do it for me. And I never wear black.
Why did the 9-11 Truth Movement fail?
- Thread starter Thunder
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Thanks for the fashion suggestion but yellow doesn't really do it for me. And I never wear black.
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
REALLY??? Who are you, Bakunin or what?
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/9907451897c0442ad.gif[/qimg]
I guess if I was a proponent of anarchism I would not have had to look uo who the he11 Bakunin was.
I believe I gave a breif outline of my political stance above. Perhaps if you read it you might have an actual question for me.
JihadJane
not a camel
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You are operating under some rather warped standards of evidence and evaluation of evidence. All of the available evidence points to the terrorists as the most likely perpetrators. No evidence has been put forth to suggest any other perpetrators. However, because all of the available evidence is not "conclusive" to the point of being "100% decisive", the truthers have convinced themselves that theories having zero evidence somehow remain on equal footing with the prevailing theory that is supported by all of the available evidence.
a: "What was the score of the game?"
b: "99 to nothing"
a: "Wow your team is terrible, and that other team must be really good!"
b: "Actually, no, since neither team made it to 100, we can't determine which team is better."
I don’t follow sport so your analogy is a bit lost on me.
Your thinking is black and white. The involvment of real terrorists is not incompatible with US criminal complicity.
I assume you pride yourelf on being one of the “rational people”.
What makes you believe that covert operations leave trails of unintended evidence?
Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
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Perhaps, but the Truth Movement would rather focus on faked phone calls, thermite, pods, fly-overs, no planes, etc.
Correct. Now all you have to do is prove it. I'll be waiting.
GStan
Graduate Poster
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The involvment of real terrorists is compatible with the evidence. The involvement of US complicity is incompatible with the evidence.
Oddly enough you seem to pride yourself on being irrational.
Because they are conducted by PEOPLE. People who are fallible. Who make mistakes. Who don't think of everything. Do you want to rephrase your question? Because if you want to try to convince me that an operation the size of 9/11 (MIHOP, not LIHOP) could be pulled off WITHOUT leaving any unintended evidence, you'll have to go on my ignore list.
And besides, if no unintended evidence was left behind, (that is, all evidence that that was left behind was intended to point to 19 hijackers), how do you explain the existence of the TM at all? Is this an admission on your part that the existing evidence, be it legitimate or faked, does in fact point to the 19 terrorist hijacker explanation of what happened that day?
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This is the closest admission by any truther since 9/11/2001 that there is no evidence of an inside job. Ok, tell us why you waste your life believing in a fantasy?
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
With the above exchange you display an obvious and complete non-understanding of what would be involved.
Yes, I know you were refering to 'tweaking' the computer sim initial conditions. the very same computer program was used for all sims.
In a real world test designed to test for the same things that the sims it would be a requirement to do several tests with the initial conditions different each time to account for the variables that one can reasonably expect. For instance the speed of the aircraft and the anfgle at which it hits the building will affect the type, severity and distribution of the impact damage, the amount of flammables available and the distribution and rubblization of those materials will affect fire spread and ambient temperatures. The speed of the aircraft can be determined within a range and thus testing would entail damage inflicted at those speeds. Material loading would be estimated within a range and that would be tested, AND EVERY time one tests with a different initial condition one must start with a new model.
YOU said one would require only parts of the building to be built then chafed at my suggesting that only a ten storey section would be reqyuired because the entire building collapsed.
Make up your mind, perhaps I should have stated ten stories plus two more below the fire/impact floors. Ooooh but the dersion that would ensue "the lower floors should have halted the collapse", "the debris of the collapsing upper section should have slid off to the side"....."you have to model the entire building".
You were implying that 'brown' people could not have accomplished the feat of hijacking several aircraft and using them as suicide weapons. Is there a non-bigotry reason why 'brown' people would be incapable of such actions?
I point out that all races are represented in the historical set of aircraft hijackers and that the PLO hijacked several aircraft all on the same day from several countries, flew them all to the same place and blew them up. I also remind you that in Isreal or Iraq the idea that a person who's skin color is brown can get a weapon through tight security and kill many people is not considered unlikely.
please tell me how many hijackings have taken place over the history of hijackings in which the hijackers had much difficulty taking over. A subset would be the number of hijackings in which the multiple hijackers went into the cockpit and killed the crew outright.
Small??? The two tallest structures in a city skyline which would also have nothing beyond them other than ocean? The second aircraft also having the benefit of the tens of miles long smoke trail to point the way to the location of the WTC? The Pentagon, the largest office structure for hundreds of miles, of a particularily distinct shape and lying alongside a major river? Those are the small difficult to locate targets? My mother could locate those from the air and she is 75 years old.
Do some homework, it was a three minute descending turn involving no "acrobatics" whatsoever.
.
The air defense system designed to identify and intercept possible aggression from aircraft flying TOWARDS the North American continent. It took over an hour to get an unarmed aircraft to investigate the Payne Stewart errant jet and it was flying high and with its radar transponder on at all times.
Also never seen before was a large, fast , fuel laden passenger jet flown into the tallest office structures in the entire world.
The Columbia disaster is a good analog. Although ice/foam impacts had occured many times in the past at liftoff, sometimes resulting in heat sheild damage, all shuttle craft had always made it back in one piece. However, although complete vehicle loss had never before occured, Columbia burned and broke up on reentry because of heat sheild damage due to foam.ice impact at launch. By the "never before seen" logic the Columbia disaster is just as unlikely. Do you agree?
you saying that fewer than 20 fanatics cannot keep a secret? The Red Brigades operated for years and it took a lot of time to bring them down.
Not much of a problem for Saudis pre-2001
When I was in university in Ottawa the engineering, physics and Chemistry departments were populated with scores of Chinese, Iraqis,Saudis and Egyptians. Maybe it was more difficult later on and in the USA. Got anything to back that up with?
While I was working at an international airport in Canada war games took place every month that directly affected the airspace around that airport. That is one small part of North America. There were also military tests conducted during that period, specifically cruise missile testing and I saw the B52's flying high and in formation above me.
that you consider it odd that exercises were taking place belies the fact that you are ill informed.
See above, you want a test of all that occured (the whole building fell down) or just collapse initiation? make up your mind and get back to me.
I paraphrase your reaction in a post above "but, but, but the whole building fell down!!"
You take quite a liberty there. I never supported the war in Iraq. What I stated above that Rummy ignored the Generals on how the war would be fought. The Pres. and vice-pres. ordered the war, I deplore that. Compounding the idiocy was Rummy feeling that he knew more than the Generals. Thus because of GWB Americans were sent to Iraq and because of Rummy more of them died than would have been the case if the Generals had been in charge of the resulting war.
I don't think left/right issues are that relevant to 911. Anyone may be victim to the delusion that our rulers must be common criminals of the worst kind.
No, does the historic fact that Islamic groups have hijacked aircraft, killed civilians and conducted suicide missions to kill civilians enter into your considerations?
What does Iraq have to do with 9/11? I never bought GWB's arguement.
I can decsively state that there were no nukes, themite, faked aircraft, planted DNA evidence, faked FDR's, space based DE weapons and that it is entirely within the realm of high probability that the events of 9/11 are that Islamic men belonging to a group that considers itself at war with the west and with the USA specifically hijacked 4 aircraft and managed to fly 3 of them to high profile targets in within the same country that the flights originated.
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JihadJane
not a camel
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I think you could be mistaking the 911 Truth Movement for the 911's True Movement. It is the latter whose loves you have described.
No, I wasn't.
ETA: BTW, you appear to attribute several quotes to me that aren't mine.
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jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
So would only parts of the building need to be physically modeled or would an explanation of the total collapse require the whole building?
Your words, right?
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JihadJane
not a camel
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How does saying the whole buidling fell down translate into saying that the whole building should be reconstructed?
My apologies. I thought you were saying that the problem with the war was that it was mismanaged rather than that there was a problem with the war in the first place
Who's said they must be?
The Saddam statue toppling was an example of faked reality.
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JihadJane
not a camel
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Only parts...
...and I wasn't talking about physical modelling. I was talking about reconstruction: finding real bits of the building from selected parts of the building and putting them back together again.
My words, indeed, which, despite my later clarification, you still apparently misunderstand, perhaps due to your own lenses or desires. I wasn't implying that skin color is related to ability. I was highlighting a political reality.
Are you denying that the alleged hijackers were brown while US military/intelligence machine is predominantly controlled by whites?
Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
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Please explain. What is the 9/11 "True Movement"?
No wonder your truth movement, both of them, failed; you jump on political tripe that has nothing to do with 9/11. Your ideas on 9/11 fail due to lack of evidence mixed with political bias.
Truthers get hung up on failed political ideas and make up lies about 9/11 to make your political view viable. Failed ideas are the trade mark of 9/11 truth and indicative of 9/11 truth failure to take action.
Oops, you agree the terrorists did 9/11.
JihadJane
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The 911's True Movement is the movement that campaigns to support the Bush regime's 911 narrative.
You're doing it again. You can't help yourself can you. Your thinking just can't cope with ideas that don't go along Bush bad, 9/11 bad, conspiracy, we know the truth, you can't see what we know etc ********. You're so blinkered it's incredible. We, here, are observing a classic case of the blind man claiming greater vision than people with 20/20 vision. And as usual it's embarrassing.
Bananaman.
JihadJane
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Thanks for your somewhat incoherent rant. I'm coping fine! What do you call people who devote their hours to supporting the Bush regime 911 narrative? Have you got a name for your movement?
And you do it once again.
Look, can you not get it through your thick skull that people who don't believe the 9/11 conspiracy nonsense can do it without supporting Bush.
It's slightly fantastic that you can't understand this.
And as for incoherence I'd have to go quite a way before I could compete with your scribblings.
Bananaman.
JihadJane
not a camel
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I didn't say anything about supporting Bush. I said:
"The 911's True Movement is the movement that campaigns to support the Bush regime's 911 narrative" (emphasis added).