Subliminal Compliance (a.k.a. Psychological Manipulation)

[Senex]

I am under your control. NLP is woo.

Seriously though, I've been thoroughly skeptical of NLP. I'm learning about it, similar to if I was going to learn about how to give a psychic reading.

If this was true, all you need to know about NLP would be some jargon to spout out like Brown did. Do you know Derren () Brown has now disavowed NLP because people like myself has called him for BS and he decided not to promote woo any longer. Look it up.

I'm learning because of interest, and nothing else.

Directed to anchoring: this method has worked, or at least appears to have worked previously, but, of course, I'm still undecided, as it's something that I haven't researched fully.

"Directed to anchoring: this method has worked.." Yes, please tell and provide the details of the successful woo of which you speak.

This is the truth. I can look over my shoulder right now and look at my somewhat expensive library of books that include many books about hypnosis. I once thought about being a mentalist myself. I'm a better reader than I am a doer and rarely perform but I have the literature of a performer. Don't tell me about Eriksonian handshakes -- it's woo. I can't tell you what to do but if you if you want to be a mentalist stop learning psychological subtlties and practice your center tear.

True story. My dad just came home from the hospital after having had a heart attack and I am in the presence of a visiting nurse every day. Every new nurse that comes in and takes my dad's blood preassure and heart rate and things I say to them "I can stop my heart by force of will. I belong to a western philosophy called woo." The nurses look at me like I have two heads but they dutifully check my pulse on my wrist (I craftfully offer them either wrist to measure). I shut off my pulse to my wrist just like every five and dime mentalist in the country and they all have the same reaction. They raise their eyebrow and say "stopping your heart isn't a good idea." The bottom line is these educated women all believe I can stop my heart because I can stop my wrist from pulsating (two very different things). They ask me how I learned to stop my heart and I say I learned it on the Internet. They all smile and think to themself that the Internet is full of information that people don't need to have. Now you can study philosophies that show you how to slow your heart rate -- or you can just know the trick to cutting off your wrist pulse. Your choice. I go for the quick and easy way every time. It works much better than the idiot taking yoga and practicing his breathing. He will never be able to shut his pulse off no matter how long he practices.

Still much to learn about this NLP though...

Alex.

Aaauuuugh! You haven't listened to a word I have said have you?

 

[kitakaze]

(snip) ...Jim Callahan is little more than a professional psychological manipulator. The term he uses is subliminal compliance. Everything he says and does is designed to illicit a certain response from a certain demographic.

And you are being reeled in by his act, hook line and sinker.

His antics are remarkably transparent to me -- He's performing right here, using psychological manipulation techniques on the posters in this forum, sucking both attention and publicity out of all of you.

Responding to his posts is not the answer. Ignoring them is

Maybe I have a history with him you are unaware of. Maybe I have my own agenda. Maybe you don't know crap. Maybe I'll let it go this time.

I'm sorry that my post was harsh. I did feel it was thought out well enough that a thoughtful person would not just post "just ignore him" and feel they did me justice. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we can talk about this over a beer somwhere

DaSkeptic is right as is Skeptichick. Senex, I understand where you are coming from and I took the time to engage Callahan also.

To every JREF forum member, please don't feed the beast. Please don't make a pony of the JREF. Please read the following post in the other JC thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4328535#post4328535

The following posts are the ball and string, designed to make you jump with minimal effort on his part:

Yes but not one of the better ones.

No long term value in it really.

Best Wishes,

jim

You sure know about me for ignoring me completely.

That says two definite things about you.

You are compelled to know about me but you feel guilty about it.

Thanks,

Jim

Don't make a pony of the JREF and don't jump at string.

If any string dangling posts like the two I just quoted come up and someone takes the bait, please just write "Don't feed the beast, don't make a pony of the JREF" or something to that effect and link to this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4328535#post4328535

Don't even take the time to explain why or if you do, keep it super short. Something like, "Hey ___, Callahan is playing you. Read this:"

Sorry for the interruption. DaSkeptic, my apologies to you. Without playing into the game and feeding the beast this topic of discussion is totally valid and very interesting. I just wanted to address the obvious string dangling opportunities that have and will again come up here.

 

[kitakaze]

To every JREF forum member, please don't feed the beast. Please don't make a pony of the JREF. Please read the following post in the other JC thread:

Chillzero has rightly pointed out in the JC MDC thread that I don't have the right to dictate what other members should do or to try and deprive others based on my opinion of a certain member. I made the previous post based on a strong feeling and conviction of my own. I should have given more thought before acting rashly. There are other factors to consider which did not occur to me.

I agree with daSkeptic and SkeptiChick's opinions and will in the future express that shared opinion in the same fashion.

 

[Uncayimmy]

It starts as a joke, and then some moron takes it seriously and actually uses it to try and pick up chicks. Sad I tell you, so so sad.

Unbelievable. Men are dogs. I call it my Doritos Theory. If you drop a Dorito on the floor and your dog eats it, he will forever check that same spot for Doritos every day until he dies. If a guy hears a story about something a man did thousands of years ago to get laid, he will forever consider it a viable technique and try it when the circumstances warrant. That's why we whistle at girls - it worked for Spartacus. Once.

ROFL
Cute =P

How can anybody do that without sounding like a complete idiot? Any subliminal message is totally swamped by the Dork Factor.

 

[JFrankA]

IMHO, NLP, like hypnosis, could work under the right conditions. However, those conditions includes that the subject a) wants it to happen and b) expects it to. And even then, not nearly the level that "NLP experts" make the claim that it does.

For example, my girlfriend will blank out, get aroused and very compliant with me whenever I touch her hair a certain way. But remember: This works mainly because she is my girlfriend. She wants this to happen, she expects it to happen.

So I do the "anchor" only when she's in a good mood, or when the conditions are the most favorable for a desirable response. But if she is upset, even if it isn't me she's upset with, or if she's tired, or simply just not in the mood, I know that I can touch her that certain way all I want and her reaction would be "Cut that out!"

Also, whenever I do a hypnosis show, I basically tell people what they will experience is exactly the same thing as going to the movies. I tell them "you sit in your seat, watch a big screen, listen to the music and sound effects, and you cry when the actor cries, you get angry when the villain does something bad, you laugh when the protaginist laughs, your heart beats fast when you see the action and with all that, you never notice the guy one row ahead of you eating his popcorn loudly.

"It's all concentration, desire and belief. No powers, no supernatural stuff. Just your own imagination with me just telling you what to imagine, just like a movie does."

And the hypnosis still works. People choose to want this to happen. That's the only way that anything like NLP, hypnosis or subliminal messages can work.

 

[Kuko 4000]

Alex, this is what Derren writes about NLP in the excellent Tricks of the Mind book, page 173:

I now have a lot of NLPers analysing my TV work in their own terms, as well as people who say that I myself unfairly claim to be using NLP whenever I perform (the truth is I have never mentioned it).

+ about 20 more pages, going through his own experiences studying it for many years. You should buy the book. I have great respect and admiration towards Derren Brown (it hurts my head to mention his name in this thread).

Alex, it seems to me that you are interested in the mysteries / capabilities of the human mind, may I suggest a good and (compared to NLP) pretty much infinitely more useful (and imo interesting) area to focus on: the memory techniques. If only I had know about these in the days of high school, and I'm glad I know a bit about them now! I'm no expert by any standards, but I've really enjoyed and learned a lot from the books of Dominic O'Brien (Derren writes that he learned much from him as well):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominic_O'Brien

http://tinyurl.com/6ubk49 (Amazon link)

Oh, and don't let your BS detector stop you from proceeding past the surface, some of his book titles sound like woo - but his methods are true!

All the best,

Kuko

 

[not daSkeptic]

Sorry for the interruption. DaSkeptic, my apologies to you. Without playing into the game and feeding the beast this topic of discussion is totally valid and very interesting. I just wanted to address the obvious string dangling opportunities that have and will again come up here.

Honestly, I don't mind if Jim is involved in the discussion so long as it's on the general topic and not him specifically. He is, after all, someone who has demonstrated skill and experience in this area.

 

[Legend]

If this was true, all you need to know about NLP would be some jargon to spout out like Brown did. Do you know Derren () Brown has now disavowed NLP because people like myself has called him for BS and he decided not to promote woo any longer. Look it up.

Okay, let me clear up. NLP fascinates me, but guess what else fascinates me? Psychics. I love the way a psychic can extract information from someone through seemingly contacting the dead. I think it's great stuff. Obviously, it's bad woo is out there, but it still intrigues me very much. So I've been learning about cold reading, as I have NLP. I do not believe in cold reading, and can safely say the same about NLP.

"Directed to anchoring: this method has worked.." Yes, please tell and provide the details of the successful woo of which you speak.

You evil man! You quote mined!

Here's the full quote:

Directed to anchoring: this method has worked, or at least appears to have worked previously, but, of course, I'm still undecided, as it's something that I haven't researched fully.

Appears to have worked because I've used it. Obviously this is fallacious (cum hoc ergo propter hoc) I know, which is why I'm undecided. My skeptical instincts are still telling me it's woo. Not to worry, I'm thorough, if it's woo, that will be the conclusion I come to.

Aaauuuugh! You haven't listened to a word I have said have you?

I hope you can now understand that this comment is wrong.

Alex.

 

[Dunstan]

I remember years ago reading a book that was supposed to help you use NLP techniques to improve sports performance.

My tennis game continued to suck.

 

[Luciana]

I can't recommend the book "Influence" by Robert B. Cialdini enough. He breaks down how people are manipulated through five basic methods. Read this book and you will never (maybe not never but the shame is now on you) leave a car lot/store/sales call and wonder how you just bought something you didn't want. Honestly, that book will be a revelation if you wish to articulate how someone is trying to manipulate you.

Seconded, Senex. I bought the book many years ago, and back then the term "skeptic" was a let less meaningful to me - I wouldn't identify myself as one, for example, because I wasn't sure what it meant in full - but I'm sure it lay the ground to my future skepticism. Not only I became a more self-aware customer, which is very important because some financial decisions can have an impact in your future, but I also became a fiercer negotiator. I've read other books on negotiation since then, but this one has been so far the most influential. And, of course, it's a highly interesting read, because anyone can identify themselves in those situations.

Many years later I saw the book in a stand at TAM. And I thought - wow, it makes sense, it has a lot to do with skepticism. So yeah, another strong recommendation for this book here.

 

[Senex]

DaSkeptic is right as is Skeptichick. Senex, I understand where you are coming from and I took the time to engage Callahan also.

I read your later post that said you saw the light and you will now allow people to make their own mistakes when talking to trolls despite your wisdom that is wrong. My only reason to bring this up is that I called Callahan an idiot for assuming he can agree with a book I recommended and make me forget he called Randi someone who encourages children to counterfit money among other incorrect and hostile things in the past. I rarely call people names but someone who thinks I have no sense of loyalty to the person who is the reason I post here is an idiot and I get to call them a name and that is better for me to do than ignore them. I don't understand how trying to take away my opportunity to call an ass an ass helps anything. I wasn't encouraging further discourse. I doubt he will ever talk to me again. I disagree with your agreeing with people who thought I shouldn't have said how I feel.

JFrankA:
IMHO, NLP, like hypnosis, could work under the right conditions. However, those conditions includes that the subject a) wants it to happen and b) expects it to. And even then, not nearly the level that "NLP experts" make the claim that it does.

OK, we're fighting for the mind of young Legend. I won't let you fill his mind with woo. Let's have at it.

IMHO, NLP, like hypnosis, could work under the right conditions. However, those conditions includes that the subject a) wants it to happen and b) expects it to. And even then, not nearly the level that "NLP experts" make the claim that it does.

Unlike hypnosis, NLP experts don't find a need to warn their victims they are about to undergo NLP. Stage hypnotists which are philosophically different from theraputic hypnotists, do let their patients (customers) know they are to by hypnotized. It's my understanding people who invest in NLP courses do not explain to people whom they converse with they are about to use their NLP mojo on them. NLP is a secret method of manipulation unlike hypnosis. It's my understanding that no one wishes an NLP be used to manipulate unlike hypnosis where someone might hope to quit smoking.

Let's take Derren Brown. If anyone believes he can use the power of NLP to make people believe that a blank piece of currency is really money or that you forgot you wrote "BMX bike" on a slip of paper or that the the person who pays off horse racing tickets can pay off a losing bet because you said it was a winning bet with just the right voice inflection, or that he can make you get off at the wrong train station by moving his hand across your eyes or hand over your wallet because he asked has been fooled into think NLP is the method behind what is really much more mundane methods.

NLP does not work. I ask that anyone reading this to please post an instance where they manpuilulated someone using NLP or felt they were manipulated by NLP.

For example, my girlfriend will blank out, get aroused and very compliant with me whenever I touch her hair a certain way. But remember: This works mainly because she is my girlfriend. She wants this to happen, she expects it to happen.

So I do the "anchor" only when she's in a good mood, or when the conditions are the most favorable for a desirable response. But if she is upset, even if it isn't me she's upset with, or if she's tired, or simply just not in the mood, I know that I can touch her that certain way all I want and her reaction would be "Cut that out!"

Yeah, but you stop too soon after you do the twist above her left ear. If you continued with the slow earlobe to base of the neck move she really, really purrs.

hehehe.. only kidding just because I'm your neighbor (geographically speaking) and you renaged on inviting me to your next performance is no reason to think I'm moving in on your girl

Legend
Appears to have worked because I've used it. Obviously this is fallacious (cum hoc ergo propter hoc) I know, which is why I'm undecided. My skeptical instincts are still telling me it's woo. Not to worry, I'm thorough, if it's woo, that will be the conclusion I come to.

Unfortunately, young people especially take all too long to come to the conclusion something is woo is woo. Hypnosis is complicated and can't be put into woo or not category. NLP is woo. Vitamin supplements are woo. The love of a good dog is what is real.

Luciana
Many years later I saw the book in a stand at TAM. And I thought - wow, it makes sense, it has a lot to do with skepticism. So yeah, another strong recommendation for this book here.

I just stumbled on that book as well in a library long before I identified myself as a skeptic. I stumbled on Randi's book "The Magic of Uri Geller" and that affected my thinking. You might call it luck but liking to read increases the chances of being lucky by a lot

 

[not daSkeptic]

I disagree with your agreeing with people who thought I shouldn't have said how I feel.

Are you upset at Callahan or yourself? I ask because initially I thought I was the former but really I was the latter. I fell for it. That's nobody's fault but my own. Although I can never trust him, I cannot say anything about him personally as I do not know what is the real him and what is just part of the act.

 

[Senex]

Are you upset at Callahan or yourself? I ask because initially I thought I was the former but really I was the latter. I fell for it. That's nobody's fault but my own. Although I can never trust him, I cannot say anything about him personally as I do not know what is the real him and what is just part of the act.

Tuth be told, no one blames himself more for his shortcomings than I do -- having said that none of my shortcomings have anything to do with Callahan. It's not important that you know who the real Jim Callahan is, it is more important that you know how the real Jim Callahan affects others. He affects people in a negative way. He attempts to mislead people about our relationship with the afterlife. He is a flat out bold faced liar. He is a scoundrel.

Did I miss something?

 

[not daSkeptic]

It's not important that you know who the real Jim Callahan is, it is more important that you know how the real Jim Callahan affects others. He affects people in a negative way. He attempts to mislead people about our relationship with the afterlife. He is a flat out bold faced liar. He is a scoundrel.

I guess what I'm saying is that if one's only interaction with a psychological manipulator is via their "performance," then one has little data by which to judge them as a person.

 

[Senex]

I guess what I'm saying is that if one's only interaction with a psychological manipulator is via their "performance," then one has little data by which to judge them as a person.

Holy Smokes! Spoken as someone smitten by the looks of the woo. If you aren't unwilling to give up on a person who says and writes things that aren't nice and says evil things and you say to yourself this rascal has little data in which to judge him on -- well then I guess there is a governor in Alaska I'm keeping my eye on

 

[tesscaline]

Holy Smokes! Spoken as someone smitten by the looks of the woo. If you aren't unwilling to give up on a person who says and writes things that aren't nice and says evil things and you say to yourself this rascal has little data in which to judge him on -- well then I guess there is a governor in Alaska I'm keeping my eye on

How is differentiating between an act that someone puts on to achieve a certain goal and the true personality of that person being "smitten by the woo"?

 

[Senex]

How is differentiating between an act that someone puts on to achieve a certain goal and the true personality of that person being "smitten by the woo"?

By the time you need to ask me that question it is too late. Sorry

 

[JFrankA]

JFrankA:
IMHO, NLP, like hypnosis, could work under the right conditions. However, those conditions includes that the subject a) wants it to happen and b) expects it to. And even then, not nearly the level that "NLP experts" make the claim that it does.

OK, we're fighting for the mind of young Legend. I won't let you fill his mind with woo. Let's have at it.
Unlike hypnosis, NLP experts don't find a need to warn their victims they are about to undergo NLP. Stage hypnotists which are philosophically different from theraputic hypnotists, do let their patients (customers) know they are to by hypnotized. It's my understanding people who invest in NLP courses do not explain to people whom they converse with they are about to use their NLP mojo on them. NLP is a secret method of manipulation unlike hypnosis. It's my understanding that no one wishes an NLP be used to manipulate unlike hypnosis where someone might hope to quit smoking.

[/quote]

I agree with you here on the philosophical differences here. Regardless, they work about the same way. I think we are argueing on the same side, here.

Let's take Derren Brown. If anyone believes he can use the power of NLP to make people believe that a blank piece of currency is really money or that you forgot you wrote "BMX bike" on a slip of paper or that the the person who pays off horse racing tickets can pay off a losing bet because you said it was a winning bet with just the right voice inflection, or that he can make you get off at the wrong train station by moving his hand across your eyes or hand over your wallet because he asked has been fooled into think NLP is the method behind what is really much more mundane methods.

Of course. It's not NLP, it's not hypnosis, it's a psychological confusion trick along with some slight of hand, that's real. The problem is that this trick is used in NLP and hypnosis but is made out to be more powerful than it really is.

NLP does not work. I ask that anyone reading this to please post an instance where they manpuilulated someone using NLP or felt they were manipulated by NLP.

I think "arguement" between us is my fault. I wasn't clear before. The point I was trying to make about the conditions being right is this: with NLP and hyponsis, reason why it works is because the subject believes and desires it to work. There are some psychological tricks involved that aid it, for instance, suggestion and confusion, but it will never ever work at the level that the NLP & hypnosis "teachers" say it could.

This was the point of the story with my girlfriend. It works on her because she desires and believes it to happen. Which brings me to this:

Yeah, but you stop too soon after you do the twist above her left ear. If you continued with the slow earlobe to base of the neck move she really, really purrs.

Oh. She does more than just purr!

hehehe.. only kidding just because I'm your neighbor (geographically speaking) and you renaged on inviting me to your next performance is no reason to think I'm moving in on your girl

That's cool. I'm not the jealous type, anyway.

As to my performances, to be honest, all my shows are R and X rated shows. I do mostly private parties and swing parties. Get a bunch of intoxicated, open-minded people who want something adult to happen and are open to suggestion then my job becomes very easy.

Unfortunately, young people especially take all too long to come to the conclusion something is woo is woo. Hypnosis is complicated and can't be put into woo or not category. NLP is woo. Vitamin supplements are woo. The love of a good dog is what is real.

This is true. It took me a long, long time to figure out what hypnosis is. After twenty-some-odd years of experimenting and learning, I still say it's nothing more than going to the movies with suggestion thrown in.

This is why I say we are "argueing" on the same side. I am a big skeptic too. I do not advocate anyone to go to an NLP seminar nor a hypnosis class. If you really want a good enough run down of both subjects, go read "Tricks of the Mind" by Derren Brown. If you want to be a stage hypnotist, Ormond McGill's book "The Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnosis" is a pretty good resource for that. For psychological tricks, honestly, go read a psychology 101 and a sociology 101 text book. Another good resource for this is magic books, like books on how to do card tricks and mentalism tricks and the like.

 

[tesscaline]

By the time you need to ask me that question it is too late. Sorry

Oh?

So then I shouldn't differentiate between Robert Englund's performance as the evil Freddie Kruger, and his actual personality of being a really nice guy?

Okay. We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

 

[Senex]

I agree with you here on the philosophical differences here. Regardless, they work about the same way. I think we are argueing on the same side, here.

Ok, but if I wasn't sitting next to, and your girlfriend was at home, and you were at a bar in the company of a couple of pretty girls, would you start using highfallutin NLP words?... I thought so.

This is why I say we are "argueing" on the same side. I am a big skeptic too. I do not advocate anyone to go to an NLP seminar nor a hypnosis class. If you really want a good enough run down of both subjects, go read "Tricks of the Mind" by Derren Brown. If you want to be a stage hypnotist, Ormond McGill's book "The Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnosis" is a pretty good resource for that.

I own that book.

For psychological tricks, honestly, go read a psychology 101 and a sociology 101 text book. Another good resource for this is magic books, like books on how to do card tricks and mentalism tricks and the like.

I have one standing mentalist gig a year (for true woos-Beltran) and I have not attempted a hypnosis performance. Maybe we could help each other?