Merged 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[NagP]

Hi, I am a skeptic from Japan and I have some questions.
(It is quite difficult for me to discuss in English but I'll try.)

I have read 9/11 Comission Report and "Debunking the 9/11 Myths" by Popular Mechanics.
I am also reading Debunking 9/11 Debunking by DRG. (almost finished)

In D9/11M, a man named A. E. Kilsheimer said something like
" I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box."
"I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

However, Griffin claims that his testimony is unreliable. (D9/11D p.263)
Griffin claims that the black box was not found by Mr. Kilsheimer but by some firefighters few days later, according to the official story.

Is there any rebuttal against this Griffin's claim?
What did Mr. Kilsheimer mean to say?

If there is any reference, I will be grateful.

 

[Bell]

Hi, I am a skeptic from Japan and I have some questions.
(It is quite difficult for me to discuss in English but I'll try.)

Hello and welcome! Your English seems quite good to me.

I have read 9/11 Comission Report and "Debunking the 9/11 Myths" by Popular Mechanics.
I am also reading Debunking 9/11 Debunking by DRG. (almost finished)

In D9/11M, a man named A. E. Kilsheimer said something like
" I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box."
"I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

However, Griffin claims that his testimony is unreliable. (D9/11D p.263)
Griffin claims that the black box was not found by Mr. Kilsheimer but by some firefighters few days later, according to the official story.

Is there any rebuttal against this Griffin's claim?
What did Mr. Kilsheimer mean to say?

If there is any reference, I will be grateful.

I have no answer to this.
But more important, what does Griffin want to imply with this? Does he say in his book?
It doesn't matter if mr. Kilsheimer found the black box or the firefighters did. The black box was still found, meaning that AA77 crashed there.

 

[funk de fino]

There was a recent thread or post here that discussed the contradictions in who found the black box. None of the alleged finders had any aircraft experience as to what black box it was and there are many many black boxes in an aircraft. Anyone of a dozen searchers may have found a black box. This does not mean they found the FDR or CVR.

Kilsheimer may have been mistaken about what he found or some of the other claimants may also have been mistaken. As Bell has pointed out, the fact the boxes were found in the pentagon proves the flight involved hit the pentagon.

welcome to the forum NagP

 

[T.A.M.]

ask yourself the question,

"What difference does it make whether Person one, or Person two found the black box?"

If your answer is

"It doesn't matter", then you have found your answer...move on.

If your answer is,

"Because the inconsistency in the two stories may lead to a cover up", then check your paranoia at the door, and start again.

TAM

 

[Baylor]

There was a recent thread or post here that discussed the contradictions in who found the black box.

This thread covered it. Burkhammer (the firefighter) did not find the black boxes.

NagP, it's Griffin who's unreliable. He says so himself.

I said lots of things in NPH that I would not say today and that I did not repeat in NPHR, where I specifically corrected at least some of the errors I had made in that earlier book, written 5 years ago.

 

[NagP]

This thread covered it. Burkhammer (the firefighter) did not find the black boxes.

Thank you for guiding me to the proper thread.
I will read through it.

Basically I do not believe those "inside job" stories.
I am looking for debunking information to confront Japanese 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

Not much debunking information is available in Japan, because of the language barrier.
This is the reason why I joined the JREF forum.

 

[Hokulele]

R.Mackey did a good job on debunking most of David Ray Griffin's nonsense regarding the NIST report (which is different from what you are asking, but it may be helpful). You can find links to his white paper in this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3358094#post3358094

 

[NagP]

R.Mackey did a good job on debunking most of David Ray Griffin's nonsense regarding the NIST report (which is different from what you are asking, but it may be helpful). You can find links to his white paper in this thread.

Thank you.
I knew about this article but I haven't looked through it yet.
Because its over 200 pages...

After finishing DRG's book, I am planning to read "Among the Heroes" by J. Longman and "102 Minutes" by Dwyer & Flynn.
Because, Japanese translated versions are available.

 

[T.A.M.]

A user here that goes by "Gumboot" has been working on debunking all of DRGs famous "115" things that the 9/11 commission got wrong.

I am not sure the status on it. Most of DRGs major points are quite easily debunked at Gravy's links.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home

IF you can get through all of it, there is not much left that you cannot debunk

TAM

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Thank you.
I knew about this article but I haven't looked through it yet.
Because its over 200 pages...

After finishing DRG's book, I am planning to read "Among the Heroes" by J. Longman and "102 Minutes" by Dwyer & Flynn.
Because, Japanese translated versions are available.

If I could recommend a couple, check out "The Looming Tower" by Lawrence Wright and "See No Evil" by Robert Baer. Not sure if there are JP translations of these works, but I'd like to think if DRG can get his bunk translated that two legitimate experts on the subject can as well.

 

[RedIbis]

A user here that goes by "Gumboot" has been working on debunking all of DRGs famous "115" things that the 9/11 commission got wrong.

I am not sure the status on it. Most of DRGs major points are quite easily debunked at Gravy's links.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home

IF you can get through all of it, there is not much left that you cannot debunk

TAM

Did you guys ever finish the best threads project?

 

[NagP]

Most of DRGs major points are quite easily debunked at Gravy's links.

Ah, this is Mark Roberts' website!!
I have visited this site a couple of times.

Unfortunately this site was not mentioned in the "Recommended 9/11 Web Sites" of the book D911M by Popular Mechanics.
I only got aware of this site very recently.

 

[NagP]

If I could recommend a couple, check out "The Looming Tower" by Lawrence Wright and "See No Evil" by Robert Baer.

As far as I know, I think these books are not translated into Japanese.
I heard about "Looming Tower" but never heard of "See No Evil".
I will check it out at Amazon.

 

[T.A.M.]

For what it is worth, and for however long it lasts, a truther has reproduced in flash video format, all of the archived TV broadcasts from 9/11 - 9/13 2001.

http://www.911conspiracy.tv/9-11_TV_archive.html

TAM

 

[Bobert]

I believe that the LCF/CIT boys are handing out large doses of psychotropic medications because now the Pentagon witnesses may be fake people!!!

Or were some of these alleged crash eyewitnesses fake people invented to present a lie to the American people?

Or were they misrepresented by the lying media as crash witnesses when they were not?

Comedy GOLD!

 

[T.A.M.]

Did you guys ever finish the best threads project?

I finished my thread. I believe it is in gravy's hands now.

TAM

 

[Dave Rogers]

I finished my thread. I believe it is in gravy's hands now.

I did a couple of pages. As far as I'm aware all the initial filtering by forum members has been done and Mark is working on the filtered set now.

Dave

 

[Thunder]

So..what has Parky76 been doing now that he is rarely posting about 9-11? Well clearly I have been paying attention and posting about more important subjects, like Gaza and the economy.

I also went to a cool event in NYC called "Nerd Nite". My God are there lots of sexy nerds. =)

Having a girl over for dinner tonight. Meeting another one before that. Hee hee!!!

Flying to Cali in February. Gonna check out Santa Cruz and Monterey.

Life without debating 9-11 conspiracy theories...is pretty sweet. I suggest you all try it.

 

[T.A.M.]

So..what has Parky76 been doing now that he is rarely posting about 9-11? Well clearly I have been paying attention and posting about more important subjects, like Gaza and the economy.

I also went to a cool event in NYC called "Nerd Nite". My God are there lots of sexy nerds. =)

Having a girl over for dinner tonight. Meeting another one before that. Hee hee!!!

Flying to Cali in February. Gonna check out Santa Cruz and Monterey.

Life without debating 9-11 conspiracy theories...is pretty sweet. I suggest you all try it.

Well done Parky. I wholeheartedly agree. I spent most of today so far in the Ice Rink watching my Son (8) and Daughter (5) play Ice Hockey.

TAM

 

[Childlike Empress]

Nafeez Ahmed about 7/7, 9/11 and the term "conspiracy theory" (9min)