Jimmy Carter is a terrorist

[Skeptic]

Gaza and Hamas media outlets are a far cry from access the giant media corporations of CNN, MSNBC, FOX, etc.

True, true.

What a pity the wonderful shows I've posted above -- a small sample, of course, virtually all Hamas TV is more of the same -- gets wasted on such a small area, instead of being broadcast worldwide on CNN to the edification of the world.

Most of the world, due to Hamas' lack of access to the global media, remains sadly ignorant of the true satanic nature of the Jewish scum, or of the joy of amputating thieves' hands. (Well, unless they live in Iran, Lebanon, or most other countries which follow the religion of peace, in which case similar TV shows are usually available.)

So, I repeat, what "legitimate issues" we're talking about here, which Hamas should be presenting to the media? Which hand to amputate? Just how the Jews faked the holocaust?

 

[Soapy Sam]

Dammit, I like President Carter.

I don't say he's the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he knows good from bad.

And he tries to do something about it.

Maybe right, maybe wrong. But he tries.

 

[shuttlt]

He met with him, despite the man being a wanted terrorist by his own country.

Is this so bad? I expect and hope that that is going on all the time. The UK government was talking to the IRA all through the 90's when they were wanted terrorists. Otherwise, what are we left with? Toughing it out to see whether we or they are willing to absord/inflict the most innocent death? You need to be tough, and you need to talk.

He secretly advised him about how many terrorists to demand in return for an Israeli soldier.

So he 'secretly' did this and then posted about it on his website. He must be a fool.

Also, where does he say, "he advised them on how many soldiers to ask for"? You assume that his goal was them getting the best deal. Does 'formulas' have to mean x Israeli prisoners=y Hamas prisoners? This is diplomatic language, not maths. Couldn't he just mean, I discussed with them the possibility of them returning this guy and what issues they felt needed to be addressed. He may even have told them that he doubted that some of what they asked for was realistic. The Israelis have had prisoners returned, presumably be negotiating with wanted terrorists...

So he certainly seems quite willing to defy his own country to aid and support wanted terrorists in words and deed. Why won't he accept smuggling as well? Certainly, morally speaking, there isn't much difference.

As for the "deluded idiot" claim, I'd say any US president who knowingly meets with a wanted terrorist and advises him on how to act is a deluded idiot.

That's at least the most chariatable explanation. The other one -- that he is a Hamas supporter and therefore, indeed, a terrorist -- is much worse.

I think your are confused here. You imply that in you first interpretation he is not a Hamas supporter, and then in that interpretation say he might smuggle weapons for them. Why would he smuggle weapons for Hamas if he didn't support them? He might be naive, but PLEASE! Conscientious objectors in the First World War defied their government (I know you think he advises terrorists), but they were also hardly likely to run weapons for the enemy either. You need to back this up with a little more meat if you're going to claim what you said wasn't unsupported. Show that he supports Hamas, or show that he would smuggle weapons for people he does not support.

 

[gdnp]

He has crossed the line. He is now a terrorist.

He attempts to broker the release of an Israeli prisoner, and he is a terrorist.

 

[shuttlt]

Of course, there's also its award-winning educational children's television:

[qimg]http://www.solomonia.com/blog/images/2008/07/memrihandchoprabbit.jpg[/qimg]

Er... what were those "legitimate issues" Carter needs to discuss with those folks, again?

It proves nothing, but the translation of the childrens show you mentioned seems to be pretty contentious. CNN amongst others seem to feel that memri are not kosha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow's_Pioneers#Translation_controversy

Memri translate one comment as "We will annihilate the Jews", CNN translate it as "The Jews are killing us".

 

[shuttlt]

Skeptic,

I've been reading up on Memri. From what I can see you are quoting some dodgy, dodgy people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memri#Criticism

 

[UserGoogol]

Oh, I dunno about that. Hamas seems to have access to the media. Hamas TV from Gaza, for example, is well known for its deep insight into current sociological issues:

[qimg]http://www.solomonia.com/blog/images/2008/03/memrihumanscum.jpg[/qimg]

Its fascinating historical shows:

[qimg]http://www.pmw.org.il/images/HamasHolocaust20080430.jpg[/qimg]

Of course, there's also its award-winning educational children's television:

[qimg]http://www.solomonia.com/blog/images/2008/07/memrihandchoprabbit.jpg[/qimg]

Er... what were those "legitimate issues" Carter needs to discuss with those folks, again?

They're humans, and humans believe stupid and hateful things. If you refuse to negotiate with people who believe stupid and hateful things, you will end up not negotiating with anyone. Yes, some Palestinians want to kill Jews for the sake of killing Jews, but they want other things too, and if you can persuade them that they aren't realistically going to be able to push Israel into the ocean any time soon they might be able to set their sights a bit lower and aspire to other goals instead.

 

[gdnp]

Carter has always seemed to be devoted to a naïve belief that even the most evil terrorists in the world would turn and be nice to us if only we'd meet with them and understand them and try to negotiate with them. It never worked when he was President, and it hasn't worked in any of his attempts since then, but he seems to remain convinced that if he keeps on trying, eventually it will work.

Your right. Terrorists like Menachem Begin and Nelson Mandella will never give up there terrorist ways and negotiate peace deals with there enemies.

 

[gdnp]

give him a break. He's just trying to live up to that Nobel prize he shared a couple of decades ago.

What was that for again?

If I remember correctly, it had something to do with a peace deal between Israel and Egypt. Too bad that didn't work out. Obviously, Carter is a naive fool who knows nothing about the middle east. He should just butt out.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I live in Harris county. While some comparisons between Gaza and Harris county might be valid, I think there is a slight (enormous) difference in the magnitude of chaos, poverty, and inept government between the two (mind you, I live in the third ward). Not a good comparison.

Daredelvis

I have also compared Gaza to Bexar county, so don't feel too special. My point is that Gaza fits into Harris six or seven times, and into Bexar three or four, with room left over. Pop density thus higher, but in terms of how big it is

sorry, it's a suburb of nowhere in particular.

Perspective is lacking here. It's a bizarre political absurdity, made even moreso by the fact that initially, when Israel was formed, Egypt had the Gaza strip under its control but did not grant the folk there Egyptian citizen ship. (And more fun after that, but it's a mess.)

By the way, if anyone starts lobbing mortars into Galveston or Harris county, there'd be some smack down and action right quick.

DR

 

[gdnp]

I have also compared Gaza to Bexar county, so don't feel too special. My point is that Gaza fits into Harris six or seven times, and into Bexar three or four, with room left over. Pop density thus higher, but in terms of how big it is

The local paper said Gaza was twice the size of Washington DC.

 

[a_unique_person]

I have also compared Gaza to Bexar county, so don't feel too special. My point is that Gaza fits into Harris six or seven times, and into Bexar three or four, with room left over. Pop density thus higher, but in terms of how big it is

The whole of Israel/West Bank/Gaza fits inside an Australian cattle station (ranch to you).

http://www.wrightsair.com.au/anna.htm

 

[ddt]

The local paper said Gaza was twice the size of Washington DC.

and 2.5 times its population (according to wiki: Washington DC and Gaza Strip).

 

[Darth Rotor]

The local paper said Gaza was twice the size of Washington DC.

And twice the bile with none of the charm. Too bad.

 

[Skeptic]

They're humans, and humans believe stupid and hateful things. If you refuse to negotiate with people who believe stupid and hateful things, you will end up not negotiating with anyone

We need to negotiate with people who believe stupid and hateful things.

We do not, however, need to negotiate with people who think (a) the holocaust is a Jewish hoax, (b) Jews are "nothing but human scum" and must be destroyed, (c) the protocols of the Elders of Zion are "history", (d) children need to be taught to become suicide bombers, and (e) the current financial crisis is due to a Jewish plot to control the world's banking system.

All if this -- and much more -- is claimed by Hamas with all seriousness, and repeatedly. This is not being merely being "stupid and hateful", but being genocidal maniacs.

've been reading up on Memri. From what I can see you are quoting some dodgy, dodgy people.

Sure, sure. Excellent excuse to ignore the 50,000,000 metric tons of purified hatered they've found in the Arab and/or Muslim press (and Hamas' media in particular) about the Jews.

Anyway, are you claiming any of the videos I posted are fake, or mistranslated? Which one, specifically? Or do you want other, non-memri substantiation that the videos I've posted here have, in fact, been broadcast on Hamas TV? That could easily be done.

If you want to blame the messanger, first make sure his message isn't actually true.

 

[daredelvis]

I have also compared Gaza to Bexar county, so don't feel too special. My point is that Gaza fits into Harris six or seven times, and into Bexar three or four, with room left over. Pop density thus higher, but in terms of how big it is

sorry, it's a suburb of nowhere in particular.

Perspective is lacking here. It's a bizarre political absurdity, made even moreso by the fact that initially, when Israel was formed, Egypt had the Gaza strip under its control but did not grant the folk there Egyptian citizen ship. (And more fun after that, but it's a mess.)

By the way, if anyone starts lobbing mortars into Galveston or Harris county, there'd be some smack down and action right quick.

DR

I see what you were getting at now.

There is a long history of negotiating with terrorist. Can anyone point to an example of a similar modern conflict that has ended in the absence of negotiation?

I almost logged on to apologize to you yesterday. To me, Wednesday night is Harris county seemed to have just a little flavor of Gaza. Many of my neighbors took the opportunity to lob several dozen 180 grain mortars into the air (Unlike the traditional Saturday night 10-20). Get the wife in, get the dog in, get the cars in the garage, its raining lead.

Daredelvis

 

[shuttlt]

We need to negotiate with people who believe stupid and hateful things.

So far we agree.

We do not, however, need to negotiate with people who think (a) the holocaust is a Jewish hoax, (b) Jews are "nothing but human scum" and must be destroyed, (c) the protocols of the Elders of Zion are "history", (d) children need to be taught to become suicide bombers, and (e) the current financial crisis is due to a Jewish plot to control the world's banking system.

Look, you clearly know more about this than I do, so forgive my ignorance. Presumably you aren't saying that this is special because it relates to the Jews, are you saying it's special because their lies and wickedness are greater than has been the case in conflicts where dialog has played some part? I certainly wouldn't say that force is not part of the solution, but force doesn't seem to have been to successful in achieving any final resolution so far.

Sure, sure. Excellent excuse to ignore the 50,000,000 metric tons of purified hatered they've found in the Arab and/or Muslim press (and Hamas' media in particular) about the Jews.

Calm down Skeptic! I did preface what I said with "It proves nothing". I don't doubt that they do indeed say things that you and I can both agree are wicked and false. I do think it's unfortunate that the sources you quote are criticized as biased and misleading by sources I normally find fairly reliable (The Guardian newspaper in the UK to name but one). Perhaps they and Wikipedia are wrong.

Anyway, are you claiming any of the videos I posted are fake, or mistranslated?

It doesn't really matter, I'm sure Hamas do indeed say hateful and wicked things.

If you want to blame the messanger, first make sure his message isn't actually true.

This is a skeptic forum. I am pointing out that the source of some of the evidence you cite is dubious. What you should now do is thank me, or explain to me that the sources sited on Wikipedia are wrong.

 

[shuttlt]

Skeptic,

What you say seems without hope to me. You say dialog is pointless. It's pretty clear (or do you disagree) that Israel lacks either the will and/or the means to resolve the situation by force. How will it ever end?

 

[Skeptic]

Look, you clearly know more about this than I do, so forgive my ignorance. Presumably you aren't saying that this is special because it relates to the Jews

Certainly not. I don't think, say, Indonesians have anything to negotiate with someone who thinks God ordered them to butcher every last Indonesian baby and wipe Indonesia off the face of the earth.

 

[Skeptic]

Who knows how it will end? But pointing out that dialogue with Hamas is pointless and that currently there's no solution, is still more hopeful than living under the delusion and false hope that Hamas will somehow moderate. False hope, in the middle east, is usualy fatal.

Israel was very hopeful it will get peace if it ends the occupation and gives the Palestinians a state. Turned out to be a false hope -- such a state would only be a terror base whose goal would be to serve as part of the "staged plan" for Israel's final destruction (as both Arafat's PLO and Hamas openly say). That is very bad news, but it is even worse to ignore it, though I fear people will.

I'm sorry to give the usual cliched example, but pointing out that Hitler was hell-bent on war and genocide no matter what he were offered would have been a lot more realistic that attempts to placate him with the hope he'll moderate. If only people were hopeless then about negotiating with him, they might well have saved millions of lives.