• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Idealists: What does 'physical' mean to you?

You are just assuming that it is not knowable. Based on what?
I have been arguing that millennia old traditions insistently tell us that it is knowable, via asensual direct experience. And these traditions prescribe practical systems of life and behaviour which move one towards that experience. People here tend to value practicality, so they should like that.
It is true that this kind of knowing is different from our usual modes of knowing. The latter are made up of parts and their interrelationships, and thus are amenable to language. The former is experience of The Whole and is therefore, in principle, indescribable.
This is exactly what one would expect from a philosophical point of view. It also happens to match with personal testimony of the experience.

IMO there are also straight materialistic explanations for it. We accept monism. What largely separates egoic self-centred existence from non-dualism is thinking. Thinking creates the sense of a limited experiencer. Most traditional meditative disciplines, as I'm sure you'll agree, attempt to reduce the amount of thinking or the degree of identification with thought. As soon as these factors are diminished there will be a oneness experience, because thinking is no longer partitioning phenomenology into "I" and "not I."

I think it's also important to appreciate that mystical philosophies, good ones that is, are not so much "telling you how it is" but rather giving the mind something to try and lead it to a better place. Universal Consciousness or Dead Matter - does it really matter? To be honest, I find materialism the strongest meditation going.

Nick
 
Do you think that they are the same essentially?


No. Essentially, as in the essence of objective phenomena, the atheist believes that reality is somehow self-causing and/or self-perpetuating and self-generating. (This is true even if they believe it's all parent and baby universes all the way down.)

Even if you say it's causeless you are still believing it is self-perpetuating.

That is obviously very different from theism.

~
HypnoPsi
 
Pixy, by "matter" do you mean something that you believe to be self-sustaining and self-perpetuating (i.e. uncreated and unsustained by any type of consciousness whatsoever - even as pure information)?

~
HypnoPsi

Yes, I mean, for me there are a whole ton of issues with what "matter," or whatever, actually is, how it got to be here, and more importantly...if it's all the same thing then what principle creates differentiation?

There are heaps of places where God can come in, but when you let this demi-urge character dominate your brain, you stop looking deeper.

Nick
 
Like what, who, where, when and how.

data, protocols and papers please?


Go ahead and search on the Ganzfeld and Staring experiments to your hearts content. Then work your way through the journals of the society for psychical research among others.

If, upon doing so, you find you can clearly define where you see errors of design or confounding variables in any given experiment that you can demonstrate would give false positive results you will have my attention.

If you come back with "just not believing it" or expecting me to do your work for you and spoon feed it to you you can forget it. I have neither the inclination nor time to indulge that type of thing.

~
HypnoPsi
 
I don't know of any materialist or physicalist who is able to explain all these things, do you?

Why would you assume any theist can?
I take it that neither you nor Malerin has bothered to listen to the free MIT lectures on neurobiology. Shame on you. No box of brain-shaped chocolates for either of you next Valentine's Day.

You should try reading this out to yourself while looking in the mirror.
You're making the claim, positing a God to explain away everything you don't understand, therefore the burden of proof is on you. Besides, I've clearly stated several times already that I'd accept something if it had its own evidence to stand on. Awareness of our individual consciousness doesn't give us a logical basis to assume that there's a supreme uber-consciousness upon which the entirety of reality is contingent. The most it allows us to do is assume the existence of an equal or lesser consciousness. For those, at least, we do have some evidence.

Whatever you say about any model's scope and use to explain and answer all our questions is meaningless since both theism and materialism have the same problems. I don't think too many would deny this. That matters nothing in regards to the question about which theory requires more faith.
Wrong again. It's not faith if it's demonstrable that breaking the conglomeration of thought goop (to avoid using the term "matter") that we call a "brain" can cause a person's consciousness to change or shut off. Meanwhile, you have failed to demonstrate that the causality works the same the other way, that thoughts can alter or recreate reality.

And the theory that requires more faith is, indisputably, materialism.
For reasons you've stated, which are all false. Then again, if you've used the term "indisputably" then you're probably not going to be open-minded towards any arguments that contradict your established beliefs.

This is a cop-out materialists make to reduce consciouness to a triviality, and leads to bizzare claims that things like thermostats and calculators (or anything that carries out an informational "process") are consciouss. Concsciousness is much more than a "process". It is a subjective phenemenon that non of us can deny experiencing. It encompasses self-awareness and experience.
I hate to break it to you, but you're not that special. Consciousness is not special and it does not make humans the pinnacle of creation we like to imagine ourselves to be. There's no reason to elevate consciousness to the lofty state of a supernatural, transcendant, or godlike substance. As tempting as it is to set oneself above the rest of the universe, as many creationists do in claiming that humans were created in God's image, are the only beings with souls, that the world was created for our sake, etc. it's also exceedingly arrogant.

Furthermore, I don't see how identifying consciousness as a set of physical processes trivializes it. Creationists love to argue that evolution trivializes humans by saying that they're animals that fall under natural laws. Yeah, so what? The only way it diminishes human nature is if one's faith is so weak that it needs to be propped up on toothpicks like creationism or an immaterial consciousness.

It is easy to say that love, hate, joy, and all the other emotions we experience are "processes", but that completely ignores the experiential quality that is attached to everything we feel. To know of pheremones, cat scans, and biochemistry pales in comparison to actually experiencing "falling in love". The subjective quality of experience is so anathema to physicality, it prompts otherwise rational people to twist themselves in knots to deny the obvious.
You say that as if the technical explanation of emotions as physical processes and the personal experience of them as feelings are mutually exclusive or contradictory. What, do you believe that finding a scientific explanation for something "takes the magic out of it" or diminishes the experience? Geez...

Where's my facepalm mosaic again?

 
Well, I did download it earlier today and I will make a start on it in the car.
Cool! I really think you'll enjoy it.

I noticed that #10 seems to be missing for some reason.
Yes, that's unfortunate. I don't know what happened to #10, but it's nowhere to be found.

The only thing that concerned me was that it was essentially psychology. That to me means that it's going to be looking more at function than actual physical routes of causation.
The coverage of visual perception is particularly thorough. From the retina all the way through the visual cortex, with some very interesting stuff on various types of optical illusions.

Can you give a machine actual, experiential vision? Can you give it actual sensational feeling?
A much better question is, how can you not do this? Once you attach a camera to a computer and program (or otherwise teach) the computer to respond to visual stimuli, what is the human doing that the computer is not?

Or can you truly describe how it happens in the human brain, how it translates physical attributes into sensory phenomena? Not how it might be happening, not why it's happening, but how it actually happens?
Yes. That's in the lectures.

One other thing you might be interested in there is some recent Japanese research: The can scan your brain with an fMRI and actually produce a readable image of the word you happen to be looking at. (The title of the article is rather overblown, in typical New Scientist fashion, but the facts are accurate.)

That's from the first level of visual processing, which we already knew was a direct map of the output of the retina, but it gives you an idea of just how advanced our understanding is.

We're still a long way from completely understanding how the brain works, but we know a hell of a lot.
 
This is where I completely disagree with you. I have never felt that being a theist filled some need as atheists are wont to imagine just must be the case with theists.
This doesn't address my objection. I said that your reasoning is analogous to that used in creationist arguments and therefore flawed for the same reasons.

My theism has always, for as long as I can remember, been based on my absence of belief in the idea that objective reality is just some self-sustaining thingy or other and my absence of belief that my mind/conciousness is solely down to a couple of pounds of protein in my skull.
In other words, the argument from personal incredulity.

Quite frankly, the type of thinking you seem to be following here is the logic that we should all by now have moved away from theism and beliefs about consciousness being a distinct phenomenon and all that stuff.
You could not be more off base. My objection is with very specific beliefs, ideas, and arguments that happen to fall under theism, and sometimes I see nonbelievers practicing the same bad judgment. I wasn't making a generalization about theism, I was attacking something far more specific. If you want to appeal to persecution and claim to speak for all theists, go right ahead, but you probably don't need more things to be wrong about.

The problem here is that atheists/materialists are very, very wrong to blame some latent belief in these things in society (as if it is all just sentimental needs people have) on the reason why we're not all living in some glorious atheist utopia like in John Lennon's "Imagine".
Now you're attacking something I never even argued. Typical. When you're done setting fire to those bales of straw, maybe you'd like to consider some of the actual claims on the table.

We're not the one's doing anything to prevent this. Atheists have failed so much and so completely at showing the Universe to be self-perpetuating and self-sustaining and that consciousness is just information processing or whatever that they've basically given up trying and just prefer to nowadays point the finger at others.
What, if anything, does this have to do with anything I said? You're arguing with imaginary voices here. If you're using this as an excuse to turn the strawman on its head and thus blame atheism for hindering progress, an argument I never made in reverse, then you're only digging a deeper hole.

I never said that materialism was devoid of assumptions. I explained several times how these assumptions were reasonable to make, and yes, how the conclusions we draw from them are pragmatic. Whether real, illusory, simulated, or otherwise, it's a very bad idea to, for example, ignore the laws of physics and try to leap from tall buildings. The minor implications may change slightly depending on how one wants to model reality, but the major applications of our knowledge and evidence remain the same. Regardless of what the universe is made of, regardless of God or the nature of reality, the scientific method is the most reliable means of approximating said reality as closely as possible.

The bottom line is until you do succed at showing the above (and I very, very, much doubt you ever will) then belief in God and Psi and/or the distinction of consciousness isn't going anywhere fast.
Your inability to look up things you don't understand is not a verdict against the people who disagree with you.

This, coupled with good solid research into low levels of Psi ability showing positive results, doesn't put you in a good stead.
Oh crap--

Well, now that you know my secret, I guess there's no point in hiding it anymore. I'm implanting an irresistible suggestion that makes my opponents ridiculous--

Whoops, houseplants spontaneously caught fire again. This might take a minute.
 
No. Essentially, as in the essence of objective phenomena, the atheist believes that reality is somehow self-causing and/or self-perpetuating and self-generating.
No.

We merely observe that reality is. It can hardly not be, after all.

"Self-perpetuating"? What does that even mean? It implies a purpose, which is something we observe in - or at least ascribe to - living things (and complicated machinery). We observe no, and can reasonably infer no purpose from our observations of the Universe.

"Self-generating"? No. We merely observe that reality is. Since reality is all that is, by definition, it cannot have a cause that can be described in terms of reality.

(This is true even if they believe it's all parent and baby universes all the way down.)
You're a bit hazy on the whole concept of infinity, aren't you?

Even if you say it's causeless you are still believing it is self-perpetuating.
Again, I don't believe this has any meaning in terms of reality itself.

That is obviously very different from theism.
No. What you are describing is precisely theism. That's why atheists don't do that.

Take a look at what you are claiming: What caused the Universe? God. Well, what caused God? God doesn't need a cause.

If God doesn't need a cause, why does the Universe?
 
HypnoPsi said:
If God can think up a Universe I'm pretty sure he can create a memory store for himself.
But god can't think up the universe! This god is postulated by analogy to individual human consciousness. Humans cannot think up universes. You've endowed your god with one more capability for which you have no evidence.

Don't you see the problem? You're using the absolute certainty of human phenomenal awareness as the assured foundation of your philosophical model. That's great. But anything you add to the model that is over and above the capabilities of human consciousness no longer rests on that assured foundation. The analogy doesn't hold. The stuff is just made up.

~~ Paul
 
Last edited:
Yes, that's unfortunate. I don't know what happened to #10, but it's nowhere to be found.

I have it on very good authority (a friend of mine who is doing his postdoc in Brain and Cognitive Sciences at MIT) that lecture no. 10 is the one that explains the mind control techniques that the Evil Atheist Conspiracy uses to control Western civilization. If you stand one smoot away from the northwestern corner of the MIT Press bookstore on campus and incant "the magic words are squeamish ossifrage" 5 times with $73 dollars in 2 and 5 dollar bills in your right hip pocket, the money will be replaced with an MMC card containing an MP3 of the lecture.

Don't tell anyone I told you.
 
I have it on very good authority (a friend of mine who is doing his postdoc in Brain and Cognitive Sciences at MIT) that lecture no. 10 is the one that explains the mind control techniques that the Evil Atheist Conspiracy uses to control Western civilization. If you stand one smoot away from the northwestern corner of the MIT Press bookstore on campus and incant "the magic words are squeamish ossifrage" 5 times with $73 dollars in 2 and 5 dollar bills in your right hip pocket, the money will be replaced with an MMC card containing an MP3 of the lecture.
Should I be concerned that I actually understood all that?

Don't tell anyone I told you.
Who would I tell? ;)
 
I'd just like to paraphrase Malerin for my own amusement.

"To know of the chemical make up of LSD pales in comparison to experiencing "the taste of a rainbow". The subjective quality of the LSD experience is so anathema to physicality, it prompts otherwise rational people to twist themselves in knots to deny the obvious. "
 
I'd just like to paraphrase Malerin for my own amusement.

"To know of the chemical make up of LSD pales in comparison to experiencing "the taste of a rainbow". The subjective quality of the LSD experience is so anathema to physicality, it prompts otherwise rational people to twist themselves in knots to deny the obvious. "
The synaesthetics who can smell alphabets or taste sounds are confused by why are they being studied by all those the materialistic scientists who "deny the obvious".
 
The issue with your 'Overmind' postulate is that it assumes a fundamental entity which, itself, would need explaining..

Just to interject.. this misunderstands the nature of explanation.
We only explain things by invoking other things and their interrelationships. At the fundamental level of reality there will be no further things, plus their interrelationships, which we can invoke in order to provide explanation.
In short, if we can explain something then that something is not fundamental.
What is fundamental will be, in principle, inexplicable.
It just is. All we can do is accept that.

Hmm.. can anyone think of something that is inexplicable in terms of parts, just seems to be, and is undeniable and therefore just has to be accepted?
Here´s a clue, it begins with a C.
And doesn´t rhyme with ´hunt´.
 
Last edited:
Just to interject.. this misunderstands the nature of explanation.
We only explain things by invoking other things and their interrelationships. At the fundamental level of reality there will be no further things, plus their interrelationships, which we can invoke in order to provide explanation.
In short, if we can explain something then that something is not fundamental.
What is fundamental will be, in principle, inexplicable.
It just is. All we can do is accept that.

Well one can just stop and be content with accepting that existence just is and leave it at that. But if everyone were to do that there would be progress in scientific knowledge since we would be content to live without any understanding or explanation for anything. It would be the end of all intellectual pursuit.

My point was that there is no true 'fundamental', no final answer. Theres no point at which one can logically say "all reality is explained and there is nothing more to investigate or learn". If one posits an 'Overmind' one would still logically be able to inquire for an explanation for that, and so on. There is no logical end to inquiry for every answer spawns more questions in its wake.
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry that you find it a bizarre position. It is the natural consequence of monism.
So now the ´natural consequence of monism´ is that you are left with no interest whatsoever in which particular monism is the case? This is getting a bit Orwellian.
It´s like doing a sum and claiming not to be interested in what the result is, due to the fact that you know it´s going to be a number. Another analogy would involve an ostrich and some sand.

All of this is straight from the history of philosophy and the way that monism has been considered, from Anaximader through Spinoza.
How so? These guys, like you, claimed to have no interest in whether fundamental reality is dead matter or Universal Consciousness?

I am not assuming it is not knowable. I provided an argument as to why it is not knowable more than once in various threads and once in this thread.
Like I said before, in the face of experience, reliance on argument is rather a damp squib. It is bowing to the lessons of experience which gives science its main strength. If people see a Magnificent Frigatebird in the Australian outback then no kind of argument that they didn´t actually see it is going to hold much sway with them.

There is a much more extensive discussion/proof at the beginning of Spinoza's Ethics that you can research on your own.
Spinoza was a philosopher (argumentation), not a mystic (experience), so see my previous reply.

Whatever it is you think you might be experiencing through any mystical state is not the fundamental existent. It cannot be. You can only experience some aspect of the fundamental existent/substance.
More assumptions based only on argumentation rather than experience. Why would anyone who had experienced fundamental reality be swayed by your arguments?


An experience is an experience. That experience must be of something and that something to make any sense must be comparable to something else -- the only means by which we understand and can discuss anything (by comparison). We do not experience "things in themselves". So whatever those experiences are, they are not of the fundamental existent.
Yet more assumptions. The fact that up to now you have personally only experienced ´things´ i.e. parts of reality, in no way prejudices the prospect that it may be possible to experience all of reality.

And, right, an argument is not going to move something from existence to non-existence, nor is it going to make something the fundamental existent.
Likewise your arguments about supposed limits to experience do not bring those limits into existence.


As to God, he exists by definition if you so define it. There is no other proof. If he exists by experience, only if you so define your experience in some way so that it is the case.
Which would apply to all experience, including drinking a cup of coffee and the like.
 
Well one can just stop and be content with accepting that existence just is and leave it at that. But if everyone were to do that there would be progress in scientific knowledge since we would be content to live without any understanding or explanation for anything. It would be the end of all intellectual pursuit.
That´s a non sequitur. Accepting fundamental reality as in principle inexplicable in no way stops people from investigating the variegated bits and pieces of reality which are founded upon that fundamentality. It´s simply, and logically, true that any candidate for fundamental reality will not be made up of parts (otherwise it would not be fundamental).

My point was that there is no true 'fundamental', no final answer.
You base this on what?(Aside from just assuming it to be so)

Theres no point at which one can logically say "all reality is explained and there is nothing more to investigate or learn". If one posits an 'Overmind' one would still logically be able to inquire for an explanation for that, and so on. There is no logical end to inquiry for every answer spawns more questions in its wake
You seem to have missed my point about the nature of, and the consequent limits to, explanation. Explanation consists of invoking further parts and their interrelationships. When you get to true fundamentality there will be no further parts, plus their interrelationships, which you can invoke in order to continue in the explanatory mode.. and you will be forced to switch into a mode of acceptance.
If further parts do become available then you know that you have not yet reached fundamentality.
 
You base this on what?(Aside from just assuming it to be so)
On the blindingly obvious.

We know the Universe acts like it's made of matter.

What does that mean? We don't know.

It's reasonable to say that it means that the Universe is made of matter, but we don't know.

It's possible that the Universe is the dream of a butterfly, but we don't know. All we can do is decribe how it behaves.

It's possible that the Universe is the dream of a butterfly which in turn being simulated in some unimaginably vast supercomputer which in turn is... but we don't know.

There is no way to put a stop to the recursion. But we can say that we cannot know.
 
Hmm.. can anyone think of something that is inexplicable in terms of parts, just seems to be, and is undeniable and therefore just has to be accepted?
Here´s a clue, it begins with a C.
And doesn´t rhyme with ´hunt´.
Nope. Can't think of anything.
 
On the blindingly obvious.

We know the Universe acts like it's made of matter.

What does that mean? We don't know.

It's reasonable to say that it means that the Universe is made of matter, but we don't know.

It's possible that the Universe is the dream of a butterfly, but we don't know. All we can do is decribe how it behaves.

It's possible that the Universe is the dream of a butterfly which in turn being simulated in some unimaginably vast supercomputer which in turn is... but we don't know.

There is no way to put a stop to the recursion. But we can say that we cannot know.
To argue that it is in principle impossible to know what is the fundamental nature of reality, is to assume your own omniscience.. which is a condition you repeatedly state to be impossible. So you´re arguing against yourself.
When and how did you become omniscient?
 

Back
Top Bottom