Israeli blockade 'forces Palestinians to search rubbish dumps for food'

[BirdStrike]

Fatah collaborated in the bolockade of Gaza, helping to punish Palestinians for voting Hamas. That doesn't sit too well with Palestinians -- even with some of the Fatah supporters, I would bet.

BBC - EU foreign ministers have endorsed a temporary halt to direct aid to the Palestinian government led by Hamas.

aljazeera - Gazans have been suffering a fourth day of power outages after the European Union suspended an aid scheme under which it finances fuel supplies.

usatoday - The EU suspended its humanitarian aid projects in the Gaza Strip on Thursday as Hamas effectively took control of the territory in battles with the rival Fatah movement, prompting Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to dissolve the Hamas-Fatah unity government.

...seems all of Europe "collaborated with Fatah" too. Poor Hamas.

 

[DC]

There are many in Israel who criticise their nation.

Indeed, this is a leasson alot Palestinians have to learn.

 

[DC]

...seems all of Europe "collaborated with Fatah" too. Poor Hamas.

you are aware that the EU resumed to pay direct aid to Palestina?
they mostly send the money directly to the ones that will get it, like Israel for Electricity payments etc, to avoid Hamas geting the money.

 

[Darth Rotor]

you are aware that the EU resumed to pay direct aid to Palestina?
they mostly send the money directly to the ones that will get it, like Israel for Electricity payments etc, to avoid Hamas geting the money.

I would hope the EU is not paying for electricity not provided. That would be like paying farmers to not grow wheat, no, it would be paying me not to drill for oil.

Or something like that.

 

[DC]

I would hope the EU is not paying for electricity not provided. That would be like paying farmers to not grow wheat, no, it would be paying me not to drill for oil.

Or something like that.

its the EU, i guess they dont mind if the electricity was delivered or not

but honestly, i dont know.

 

[FireGarden]

Nope. That would the the government of Paletsinians. Governments have to work out deals on behalf of their people. All governments do this.

Nope, however, I agree that the disengagement is incomplete, so Israel has good reason to work to make it so. There have been interruptions, you see ...

Israel is still responsible for Gaza. They tried to give up that responsibility and hand it over to Egypt in Jan 2008, when the Palestinians made their prison break:
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/947858.html

A top Egyptian official said Thursday that Egypt's border with Gaza would go back to normal, and strongly rejected the idea - floated by Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai - that Israel might relinquish all responsibility for the troubled Gaza Strip.

So what do you infer from the above paragraph of Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai's opinion of the matter? Are you going to twist the words into meaning he is Egypt's defence minister?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matan_Vilnai

Israel tried to pass on responsibility, but the idea didn't fly. From that, I infer that Israel retains responsibility.

Well, some opinions have more weight than others,

So who have you quoted as a source? Or are you claiming to have the qualifications to speak on this matter?

When Israel declares that the occupation is over and Gaza is independent (not that I have heard the second declaration), I compare that to South Africa declaring the Bantustans it created to be independent states. ie: utter horse-radishes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan

Then why was it called genocide when the Bosnian Serbs killed a few thousand Bosnian Muslims? Why is the term genocide being used in Darfur? In Rwanda? Are you sure you want to stick with that?

How did you jump to this topic? I was comparing Zionist Israel with aparthied South Africa. The removal of the latter was not genocide.

 

[Pardalis]

Hey genius, when you want non truthers to answer the question, why did you ask a truther then in the first place?

My question was originally asked to Dr Adequate a page ago, I know the principle of individuality is not something you might understand, being a communist and all, but if you guys could stop answering for each other we might get somewhere.

 

[DC]

My question was originally asked to Dr Adequate a page ago, I know the principle of individuality is not something you might understand, being a communist and all, but if you guys could stop answering for each other we might get somewhere.

oh cool you just lied again.
now you claim that i am a communist. LOL
you are insane, you need help.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Israel is still responsible for Gaza. They tried to give up that responsibility and hand it over to Egypt in Jan 2008, when the Palestinians made their prison break:
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/947858.html

I see. The elections of 2006 was just a show, a farce that had no meaning other than to create a spectacle. Got it. Palestinians aren't real people, according to both FireGarden and haaretz.

I read you loud and clear.

As of 2005:

Israel continues to assert control over activities that rely on transit through Israel, as well as air space over and sea access to ports in Gaza. Israel approves all immigration to and emigration from Gaza via Israel, as well as entry by foreigners via Israel, imports and exports via Israel, and collection and reimbursement of value-added tax in Israel.

It is that last part that I'd offer you have a smattering of competence for your position. Ingress and egress via the ports, which is not via Israel, isn't controlled by Israel. What has happened is that the free access via those facilities has been restricted due to

you recall this, right

attacks on Israel.

Palestinians and others maintain that the Israeli occupation is not over because of this Israeli control

Translation:

We, the Pals of Gaza, are unable to do X, Y, and Z. Rather than work to get there, we will throw a tantrum.​

There are other options. You are, IMO, clever enough to grasp that a way forward is difficult when a state of armed hostility between two parties in in play. It is. I wish it weren't, but it is.

It isn't 1994 anymore, and for that matter, it isn't 2005 anymore.

I fully appreciate that the Israeli divestment and transition to Pal autonomy wasn't as easy as flipping a switch. Of course not. You will note that the Pals had a vote in screwing up the transition. I don't think the Israeli government's initial intention was to welch on any deal of the transition.

Time changes things, politically. I find distressing your position as calcified as positions of two decades ago. The game board has changed.

You are welcomed to point the finger elsewhere. The elected officials in Gaza had the opportunity to work, and to make the transition work, but it seems they foched it up.

HOw the Pals manage to get control of their own energy policy is a good question. See where power plants are built. (You don't build a power plant overnight either.) Their's is to the problem the US has with it's sources of energy: someone else is involved, one must make deals and deal with the vagaries of someone else having influence on one's energy policy.

By the way, the article you linked was a report of obvious political posturing over the issue of the Egyptian border with Gaza, and a short term official looking the other way. The Israelis called the Egyptian bluff. Egypt folded the hand.

As to the genocide charge, you brought it up. If you don't want to talk about it, why bring it up?

The destruction of Israel is not genocide -- no more than the destruction of Apartheid South Africa was genocide.

Anyway, if you read my entire comment on that remark of yours, we are not that far apart on what isn't genocice.


DR

 

[WildCat]

47% to 44% over Fatah, IIRC.

In the PA as a whole. Hamas got more than 50% in Gaza.

 

[WildCat]

I was comparing Zionist Israel with aparthied South Africa. The removal of the latter was not genocide.

I know, you do that a lot. This proves one of 2 things - that you don't have a clue as to what apartheid entailed in S. Africa, or you don't have a clue as to what goes on in Israel. But not to exclude the middle, I'll concede that maybe you don't have a clue about either.

 

[FireGarden]

I see. The elections of 2006 was just a show, a farce that had no meaning other than to create a spectacle. Got it. Palestinians aren't real people, according to both FireGarden and haaretz.

I don't claim to be an authority. I am anonymous-bod on the internet -- just like you. Haaretz is a respectable newspaper and they have reported that an Israeli minister tried to pass responsibility for Gaza onto Egypt.

I am not interested in your opinions and "politcs 101" lessons as if you are wise old man, wise beyond his years, back bending under the weight of wise wisdom.

You are anonymous-bod on the internet. And Haaretz trumps you.

By the way, the article you linked was a report of obvious political posturing over the issue of the Egyptian border with Gaza, and a short term official looking the other way. The Israelis called the Egyptian bluff. Egypt folded the hand.

What bluff?
Egypt never once said that they would keep the border open. The suggestion that Egypt take responsibilty for Gaza came from Israel. Egypt turned that down. Egypt said "No thanks". Egypt said, "Things will go back to what they were before".

As to the genocide charge, you brought it up. If you don't want to talk about it, why bring it up?

I brought it up because people always say that the destruction of Israel will be genocide. I don't agree with that.

People also told horror stories about how black South Africans would take revenge if they ever got in power. But the destruction of apartheid South Africa proved them wrong.

 

[FireGarden]

I know, you do that a lot. This proves one of 2 things - that you don't have a clue as to what apartheid entailed in S. Africa, or you don't have a clue as to what goes on in Israel. But not to exclude the middle, I'll concede that maybe you don't have a clue about either.

I'm still anon-bod.
Why don't we listen to the opinions of some people who have lived under apartheid?

I've started a new thread:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4302439#post4302439
Hafrada is worse than Apartheid

 

[Darth Rotor]

And Haaretz trumps you.

Nope.

What you cited isn't evidence. It's a news story. We read the same story, and you made up an interpretation to fit your narrative. I read a story and looked at two countries playing bluff poker with one another over a situation neither is happy about.

So, you still don't learn Politics 101. That's OK.

What bluff? Egypt never once said that they would keep the border open. The suggestion that Egypt take responsibilty for Gaza came from Israel. Egypt turned that down. Egypt said "No thanks". Egypt said, "Things will go back to what they were before".

You fit the story to you narrative. I hear that is called confirmation bias.

I brought it up because people always say that the destruction of Israel will be genocide. I don't agree with that.

I agree with that general idea, if the genocide referred to is "jews" in general. If one is taking the case of "Israelis" then you could offer up genocide as a prospect, but I find that term over used, misused, and abused. Sort of a Godwin thing.

People also told horror stories about how black South Africans would take revenge if they ever got in power. But the destruction of apartheid South Africa proved them wrong.

Is there a Palestinian Mandella? That would be handy. Trouble is, the situations aren't the same. I don't find your cookie cutter to be very useful in this case.

DR

 

[FireGarden]

Nope.

What you cited isn't evidence. It's a news story. We read the same story, and you made up an interpretation to fit your narrative. I read a story and looked at two countries playing bluff poker with one another over a situation neither is happy about.

Bluff poker with what at stake? The responsiblity for the Gaza Strip which, I agree, neither Egypt nor Israel wanted. The question is, though: Who had and still has responsibility? The answer is Israel. They tried to pass it on.

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Darth knows how the political machine is oiled.

But Haaretz reports that Israel's Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai suggested that "Israel might relinquish all responsibility for the troubled Gaza Strip". This is an admission that Israel had some responsibilty for the Gaza strip. There is no other rational inference. That is not confirmation bias -- it is simple confirmation.

Egypt dodged the hot potato. So Israel still has responsibility for the Gaza strip.

QED

Is there a Palestinian Mandella? That would be handy. Trouble is, the situations aren't the same. I don't find your cookie cutter to be very useful in this case.

DR

Yes, it would be handy.
Do you know when Mandela came off the USA's terror list?

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela_taken_off_US_terrorist_list

Nelson Mandela has officially been taken off the US list of terrorists by the United States government. This comes after a statement by Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, who said that it was a "rather embarrassing matter that I still have to waive in ... the great leader Nelson Mandela," back in April.

The ruling, which also applied to all members of the African National Congress means that Mandela can travel to the United States without being approved by the Secretary of State.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Could any adult who are not truthers answer my question?

Grow up Pardalis. You're continuing to make yourself look foolish.

 

[Pardalis]

"Hamas should go for sure." How does that work Tin Foil? How is that going to happen exactly, in the real world? Or are you gonna let somebody else answer for you again?

 

[ddt]

Is there a Palestinian Mandella? That would be handy. Trouble is, the situations aren't the same. I don't find your cookie cutter to be very useful in this case.

Yes, it would be handy.
Do you know when Mandela came off the USA's terror list?

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela_taken_off_US_terrorist_list

What about Marwan Barghouti^WP, the main drafter of the Prisoners Document? Some call him the Palestinian Mandela. From a column of Uri Avneri:

Some see Marwan as the Palestinian Nelson Mandela. In appearance, the two are very different, both physically and in temperament. But they have much in common.

Both became national heroes behind prison bars. Both were convicted of terrorism. Both supported violent struggle. Mandela supported the 1961 decision of the African National Congress to start an armed struggle against the racist government (but not against white civilians). He remained in prison for 28 years and refused to buy his freedom by signing a statement denouncing ‘terrorism’. Marwan supported the armed struggle of Fatah's Tanzim organization and has been sentenced to several life terms.

But both were in favour of peace and reconciliation, even before going to prison.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

"Hamas should go for sure." How does that work Tin Foil? How is that going to happen exactly, in the real world? Or are you gonna let somebody else answer for you?

I don't know Pardalis.

The persecution of the Palestinians should stop. How is that going to happen exactly, in the real world? Or don't you want it to stop?

 

[Pardalis]

I don't know Pardalis.

Fair enough.

The persecution of the Palestinians should stop. How is that going to happen exactly, in the real world? Or don't you want it to stop?

The Islamic jihadist need to go, they're the problem, they are the ones who have hijacked the Palestinians' cause. Hamas is not their protector, they are their worst enemy, they are bandits troublemakers. The Palestinians need to realize that, and soon.