Israeli blockade 'forces Palestinians to search rubbish dumps for food'

[The Fool]

Says the truther...

Tell me genius, since we all agree that Hamas are scumbags, what should be done with them?

dismantled, removed from all offices of power. Replaced by the government of the New state of palestine who is allowed to become powerfull enough to keep Hamas a memory.

But this will not happen. Israel will be allowed to do what they want, which appears to be a rerun of what they have done in the past and on and on we go.....

Can you think of a plan better than "let Israel do what it wants"?

 

[fuelair]

I bet you are fun at parties.

Only ones with intelligent conversation available! You should try it!!

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Still waiting to a reply for my question

"What would you do in Isreal's place."

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Says the truther...

Tell me genius, since we all agree that Hamas are scumbags, what should be done with them?

"truther" - another one with 1 bit thinking. You people must have awful trouble delegating processing time between your autonomic nervous systems and conscious thought. Or do you have an extra bit to control the swtiching?


Hamas should go for sure.

But you answer The Fools question....which is ....

Can you think of a plan better than "let Israel do what it wants"?

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Hm. You know, I offered an question to ask what you would do in Isreal's place and I note that only one person has answered it. And yet people are asking questions similar to that but ignoring mine..


.. Nah, coincidence. Surely, no one would ignore a question asked in good faith.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Still waiting to a reply for my question

"What would you do in Israel's place."

If I was Israel I would do exactly what they are doing now. Israel still has to tread within the boundaries of international scrutiny even though it would ideally like to throw the Palestinians out of Palestine in one foul swoop. Israel is taking it's time. Eating away at the resolve of the Palestinians bit by bit.

Thankfully I'm not Israel. I have too much care for humanity equally of all ethnicities. I couldn't treat people the way Israel treats people.

 

[Pardalis]

dismantled, removed from all offices of power. Replaced by the government of the New state of palestine who is allowed to become powerfull enough to keep Hamas a memory.

Hamas should go for sure.

OK, now how do you do that?

 

[DC]

OK, now how do you do that?

by Helping the Palestinian people more than Hamas did and so win their hearts. Creat conditions for Palestinians so they can have creat a better live.

 

[Pardalis]

Could any adult who are not truthers answer my question?

 

[DC]

Could any adult who are not truthers answer my question?

oh kiddy you and your truther obsession.... grow up

ETA: Hey genius, when you want non truthers to answer the question, why did you ask a truther then in the first place?

 

[Skeptic]

Can you be more specific?

Free elections were tried. They chose Hamas. Overwhelmingly.

 

[Skeptic]

dismantled, removed from all offices of power. Replaced by the government of the New state of palestine who is allowed to become powerfull enough to keep Hamas a memory.

Exactly this was tried by the Oslo accords. To nobody's particular surprise, the sole result of the arming of PLO terorrists to keep out Hamas terrorists was an enormous increase in terrorist attacks on Jews, and very little else.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Your analogy would be valid if Israel and Gaza were two countries in a state of war.

What do you call what they have been doing for the last few days, which is a continuation of the usual? You don't have to declare war for a state of belligerency to exist, ya know.

I think a more valid analogy would be occupied France during World War II. Could the Germans legitimately cut off food to the civilian population because the partisans continued to fight?

No, Sharon pulled Israel out of Gaza. No longer occupying.

Israel and Gaza are not fighting a war.

Yes they are. You problem is that it doesn't fit your cookie cutter. Hello, the year is 2008. The two sides are using armed force and other suasive means for a political end.

The war ended.

Nope. Play is continuous.

Israel won and became the occupying power in Gaza.

That was in 1967. The year is 2008. Israel left in 2005. Please join us in the present.

Although they have withdrawn their troops from the territory, they still control the borders and the airspace, which in my mind makes them the occupying power and responsible for the civilian population.

Not, that would be the elected government. I note your extreme attempts to shoehorn this situation into something other than reality. Granted, the airspace issue I agree with, an issue that ought to be handled IAW ICAO the way San Marino and Monaco work with their larger neighbors. That takes two parties trying to agree.

Stop trying to shoehorn this situation into something it isn't. The JREF forums are a place for critical thinking. I am critical of shoehorn thinking.

Happy New Year.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

Call it what you want. Israel is still responsible

Nope. That would the the government of Paletsinians. Governments have to work out deals on behalf of their people. All governments do this.

So Gaza is still Israel's responsibility.

Nope, however, I agree that the disengagement is incomplete, so Israel has good reason to work to make it so. There have been interruptions, you see ...

Nobody is out to kill every last Israeli. The destruction of Israel is not genocide -- no more than the destruction of Apartheid South Africa was genocide.

Then why was it called genocide when the Bosnian Serbs killed a few thousand Bosnian Muslims? Why is the term genocide being used in Darfur? In Rwanda? Are you sure you want to stick with that? Seems a slight double standard here, though to a certain extent, I actually agree that the destruction of Israel will not mean the destruction of Jews, however, it will mean the destruction of Israeli Jews, see above genocide, etcetera, ethnic cleansing, what have you.

Hamas has offered a 2-state solution along the 1967 borders. So has the rest of the Arab world.

And rockets. Don't forget the bonus package.

Go on... Bring up the charter. Everyone knows what is in the Hamas charter, including the members (leaders) of Hamas who have stated their support for the offer. But Israel refuses to talk about it.

The opinion of Israel isn't the only one that matters:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5122404.stm

Well, some opinions have more weight than others, depends on locale. The opinions of the Chinese on the Colorado River watershed agreements between US and Mexico means about Jack S

The occupation of Gaza is not over.

Indeed. Hamas is the occupying power. Oh, wait, they are the government.

Decide upon the borders of Israel, let the Palestinians have control of their borders. Then the occupation is over.

Nope.

And, no, I don't say the withdrawl is meaningless. It is full of meaning.

More than that, it was full of action.

"Here, it's yours."

DR

 

[FireGarden]

I shall be forced though to disagree that bigotry is involved in the situation you mentioned - IIRC what it was.

You don't need to rely on memory. Skeptic said: "But hey, killing civilians randomly is what Palestinians do. "
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4298005&postcount=360

 

[DC]

Can you be more specific?

Free elections were tried. They chose Hamas. Overwhelmingly.

how many % of the total voters voted for Hamas?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Neither is "black" did you get that e-mail?...."hispanic" isn't either. Racism just vaporises in the face of your logic.

Palestinian is a nationality, not a race. If you want to go toward something more like a race, try Arab, though that's a subset of Semite, which brings us back full circle to the stupidity in FireGarden's original observation.

Are we clear now?

Fuelair a racist? Not this century.

DR

 

[FireGarden]

Thankfully I'm not Israel. I have too much care for humanity equally of all ethnicities. I couldn't treat people the way Israel treats people.

This is bigotry, too.
There are many in Israel who criticise their nation.

Olmert's hands were pretty much tied by Israel's weird form of government, involving shifting coalitions. I think if he had had a free hand, he would have pulled out of the West Bank and Palestinians would be able to say: "Negotiations have won more than fighting. Fatah has won more than Hamas." And the situation would change.

That is how to get rid of Hamas: Build up an opposition that delivers more to the Palestinian people. Fatah is not that opposition. Not yet, anyway.

Fatah collaborated in the bolockade of Gaza, helping to punish Palestinians for voting Hamas. That doesn't sit too well with Palestinians -- even with some of the Fatah supporters, I would bet.

Israel seems to think violence will improve things. But it won't. It never has. It always ends up producing more determined Palestinians and an escalation in violence.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050706.html

 

[Darth Rotor]

Can you be more specific?

Free elections were tried. They chose Hamas. Overwhelmingly.

No, Skeptic, not overwhelmingly. 47% to 44% over Fatah, IIRC. A reasonably close election among the two largest factions/parties in Gaza. The other dogs and cats got the kibbles and bits votes smaller parties usually get.

"I am the king of all I survey," said Yurtle the Turtle.

If we look at a map, Gaza is a nice, dry, swamp on the shores of the Eastern Med. Hamas stand on the shoulders of the other Palestinian turtles who love their swamp as well. I am trying to decide why I should care about their swamp. Is the fishing good there? Used to be there was some tourism and beaches there. Some greenhouse based agriculture.

What's up with your economic plan, Yurtle Hamas?

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

Fatah collaborated in the bolockade of Gaza, helping to punish Palestinians for voting Hamas. That doesn't sit too well with Palestinians -- even with some of the Fatah supporters, I would bet.

At last, someone (thank you FireGarden) points out the poignancy of the multi faction element of this political struggle. (For a rough model of this fun and games, play Starcraft, 5 versus 5 Free For all. Or the old board game Diplomacy. )

DR