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Idealists: What does 'physical' mean to you?

Wrong.

It takes exactly has much faith as you need to disbelieve in Scientology, fairies and whatever other woo you don't subscribe too.

It's very easy to disbelieve in things for which there is no evidence.

It's easy to disbelieve in invisible immeasurable forms of consciousness because there is no evidence that such things can exist.

It's as easy for me to disbelieve in the invisible entity you call god as it is for you to disbelieve in the invisible things we call sprites.
 
plumjam said:
Arti, you could always try to make the Eureka leap of realising that memory is not the same thing as consciousness. Memory is a content of consciousness.
No, it isn't. I can recall some memories and poke them around in my consciousness for awhile, but my complete memory is certainly not in my consciousness. In fact, it isn't even reliable over time in whatever storage medium it is stored in.

I'm fine with you folks ragging on physicalism, but at least spend some time analyzing your own model. All you have in evidence before you is phenomenal consciousness. The mechanism of your memory is hidden.

~~ Paul
 
Specifically, consciousness is self-referential information processing. As I said in... Okay, looks like I didn't say that in this thread. Oops.

Makes your entire post moot, but that's not your fault. I've gone over this in considerable detail in past threads, but I'm happy to cover it again.

Look at it this way. A thinking entity needs the following:

Input - sensory data of some sort
Memory - the ability to memorise past input and output, and hence to learn
Logic - the ability to make decisions based on a mixture of input and memory
Output - some way of interacting with the world

I call this simple creature (which can be simulated with about 50 transistors) aware, but not self-aware. Dennett describes a thermostat as conscious, but I describe it as merely aware.

To be conscious, one must also be aware of oneself. That is, you need feedback from the logic circuits to themselves. Now we're looking at maybe 100 transistors.

This creature (or circuit) can think and feel and act and learn, and it can reflect on the process by which it does this. Not very much, mind you; it only has about 8 bits of memory, total. But it can do it.

We have a whole bunch more RAM and logic circuits, but self-reference is what makes us different from, say, a clock.

So basically, what you're arguing is that conscious awareness is a relatively simple technical feat. The requisite would have to be the four basic requirements you've listed plus the ability for this computational system to feed back on itself. One could easily construct a present day machine built to the specifications you mentioned above and it would meet your criteria for consciousness, yes?

At first glance these are very reasonable criteria. I think its genuinely sufficient for any reasonable definition of intelligence. I would even go far enough to tentatively accept this as a reasonable criteria for consciousness as well. The only problem is that while it works as a model for cognition and general intelligence it does not work as a definition of lucid experience. There are atleast a couple glaring problems with the definition you gave.

One is that sleeping or otherwise unconscious humans meet the criteria you have set. In fact, every living organism does. Memory, the processing of external and internal feed back, and biological/behavioral response (i.e. output) are all central to living processes and they perform these functions better than any artificial construct made to date. Whether one is conscious or not, their brain and body are performing the actions that you say should define consciousness.

Another major flaw with this definition is that it does not explain the qualitative experience of perception. Its one thing for a system to intelligently respond to, say, different wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum or kinetic vibrations. Its quite another to say that it experiences them as what we perceive as colors or sounds. What is a taste, an emotion, or sensation really? Its already clear that humans and other organisms must continually process information concerning their environments and internal states but, atleast for humans like us, this does not always equate with qualitatively experiencing this information input. Its fairly simple to describe how an organism approaches positive sensory stimuli or retreats from the negative (such at the automatic response to pull back from a hot object) but it does not explain why or how one should qualitatively feel that stimuli as 'pleasure' or 'pain'.

Also, it seems that without realizing it, you have made a stronger argument for idealism than any of the idealists have in these threads so far. If even an inanimate object or system could be considered, in some sense, conscious what possible objection could one bring to seriously dispute the idealist position. If every physical process is computational in nature and even an inanimate object like a thermostat or clock can be described as aware how in the world can you in the next breath seriously argue with the idealists. You positions are essentially identical in everything but names.
 
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Human history tells us that consciousness is capable of becoming deindividuated i.e. transcending egoic consciousness, and merging with Universal Consciousness. There´s thousands of years worth of evidence for my position, in principle there will always be zero for yours.


The crucial points that materialists like to ignore about mystical experiences is that they are confirmed and apperceived (not filtered through the senses).

The are not the same as the ravings of some poor soul who believes they can see spiders everywhere or whatever while nobody else can.

Mystics across continents and generations have described the same things without ever encountering each other.

The fact that they are apperceived is where things get really interesting though. How can we ever be justified in thinking that information that is filtered through the senses before reaching our awareness is somehow more real than what is intuitively known in Enlightenment?

~
HypnoPsi
 
if we interfere with cellular activity then consciousness is qualitatively affected.


And if we interfere with a TV ariel the reception is effected.

So what? Correlation is not causation.

~
HypnoPsi
 
HypnoPsi said:
Look Paul, the most scientific thing to do when constructiong a theory is to base it upon as many "knowns" as possible with as few (preferably zero) "unknowns" as possible.
You don't know crap-all about god. You just think he seems like he might possibly be something a bit like consciousness. That's it.

I as a theist am only theorising the existence of another consciousness that is big enough to "think" the entire universe. I don't know it exists but it's a sound theory because, first, I already know that consciousness exists and, second, in principle, it can be tested should someone come along and prove that matter exists and is self-perpetuation and self-sustaining (i.e. uncreated).
You can make consciousness as large as you like, but since the concept is based on human consciousness, it can only focus its attention on a fraction of the total content of its memory. You need an explanation for how the rest of the memory of the universe is maintained. It's gods all the way down.

But those are very big "ifs", Paul. You as a materialist have a very long way to go with your theory. Which is why it requires a heck of a lot more faith than theism. You've still got to find your substance and even then you have no way of knowing it's genuinely uncreated.
First of all, I'm not a materialist. I think that ontology is more or less useless. However, at least scientists are working on theories of consciousness. Who is working on a theory of the Overmind?

Why would little bits of matter hitting off each other cause consciousness? You and Pixy and all other materialists are kidding yourselves if you think you have anything even approaching a materalist theory of consciousness.
Your answer to this is simply to declare the entire universe as one giant just-so story. Yet you don't think you're kidding yourself.

It all requires a heck of a lot more faith than theism regarless of how much you don't want to admit it.
You should try capitalizing this, too. Then maybe we'd believe it.

~~ Paul
 
The crucial points that materialists like to ignore about mystical experiences is that they are confirmed and apperceived (not filtered through the senses).

The are not the same as the ravings of some poor soul who believes they can see spiders everywhere or whatever while nobody else can.

Mystics across continents and generations have described the same things without ever encountering each other.

The fact that they are apperceived is where things get really interesting though. How can we ever be justified in thinking that information that is filtered through the senses before reaching our awareness is somehow more real than what is intuitively known in Enlightenment?

~
HypnoPsi

The problem is that all that really does is suggest a common biological cause for the phenomenon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAywxhVvLU4

I think the only thing that could really confirm 'mystical' experiences like NDEs or out of body experiences as anything more than vivid dreams is if persons actually came back with vertical information that they would not otherwise be able to obtain.
 
HypnoPsi said:
Mystics across continents and generations have described the same things without ever encountering each other.
Which is exactly what we'd expect when they have the same sort of brains.

The fact that they are apperceived is where things get really interesting though. How can we ever be justified in thinking that information that is filtered through the senses before reaching our awareness is somehow more real than what is intuitively known in Enlightenment?
Hang on a mo. Why would you say that the thoughts I have while meditating are not filtered through the senses? Those thoughts are not my consciousness; consciousness is not thought. Those thoughts are played on my senses by god, just like a smell or a visual scene, or the memory of the trees in my yard when I return from vacation. There is no reason to place any special trust in them.

Again, you need to spend some time delineating what is the fundamental existent you can trust by direct experience, and what all the other stuff is.

~~ Paul
 
Argument from incredulity, strawman, and strawman:
Why would little bits of matter hitting off each other cause consciousness? You and Pixy and all other materialists are kidding yourselves if you think you have anything even approaching a materalist theory of consciousness.

From what I can see, all of the solutions offered seem to involve just ignoring the problem in some way or other and/or simply assuming that material interactions cause consciousness - and nothing more.

It all requires a heck of a lot more faith than theism regarless of how much you don't want to admit it.

Cheers,
HypnoPsi

Then you should have no trouble explaining everything about God, including its nature, properties, origins (yes, origins) and the mechanism by which it interacts with reality. Failure to do so would be begging the question, and therefore indistinct from the dishonest tactic of taking what you already believe in and plugging it into gaps in knowledge. The problem with your model is that you're forcing open gaps that aren't even there in order to justify it. For the record, even if we had a complete model of consciousness as an emergent property of the chemical and bioelectric processes of the brain, it would not render God meaningless. Unless one's faith is so weak that one requires intelligent design to be true, but I'm sure this is not the case.


As I've said before, I have no problem with skeptical idealism when used as a thought experiment, a basis for inductive reasoning, or a speculative analysis, all of which are important in science. Descartes was not aiming to doubt away reality solely for the sake of cramming God into the little spaces left behind. His God wasn't even an object of worship to him, which drew criticism of his sincerity from theists like Pascal. Rather, he was aiming to lay a foundation on which knowledge of the world is possible and reality can be closely approximated, in other words, science as we know it today.
 
It depends entirely on your definition of substance. The important point is that you have to explain how these substantive objects continue to exist, which requires something over and above personal consciousness, the only thing for which you have direct evidence.

~~ Paul


I agree with this completely, Paul. And these are all extremely good points.

God is not proven by theorising the existence of God. I fully accept this.

(And, indeed, other consciousnesses are not proven just by theorising their existence - though evidence for psi is, to me at least, strong evidence that other consciousnesses apart from my own do indeed exist. Indeed, I've always felt that some degree of low-level psi activity is the exact reason why we're all so sure that everyone else is indeed conscious.)

The point is that it requires a lot less faith to be a theist than all the hoop jumping and theorising left, right and centre about this, that and the next thing that materialism requires.

That's just the way it is.

None of it means that someone is "wrong" to be an atheist or a materialist. God knows (sic) I have lots of questions about "God".

And we've not even touched on all the Buddhists out there who are both amaterialist and atheist. (That one really puzzles me!)

~
HypnoPsi
 
HypnoPsi said:
And if we interfere with a TV ariel the reception is effected.

So what? Correlation is not causation.
Uh, well, it is in the case of the TV.

If poking my brain is not the direct cause of the memory I experience immediately thereafter, then there are some other possibilities:

God noticed that you were about to poke my brain and and played the memory in my consciousness. You were still the indirect cause.

God decided to make you poke my brain at the same instant as playing the memory in my consciousness, just to give the illusion of cause and effect.

My recall of the memory was the cause of your poke, in a stunning reversal of normal temporal cause and effect.

My brain is a receiver for my memories. It normally filters out all memories except for the few I'm curently experiencing. Poking my brain temporarily breaks the filter and receives a random memory.

Just wanted to list those possibilities.

~~ Paul
 
HypnoPsi said:
The point is that it requires a lot less faith to be a theist than all the hoop jumping and theorising left, right and centre about this, that and the next thing that materialism requires.

That's just the way it is.
The reason you think that you don't have to do a lot of hoop-jumping is because you just accept your own story uncritically. As Stimpson J. Cat once said:

"In other words, it only seems simple if you actually understand it so little that you have no comprehension of how complicated it actually is. This appears to be exactly the case."

I don't understand why everyone in your club isn't jumping all over the science of the Overmind, getting down with the details. Why are you so satisfied?

~~ Paul
 
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But how do you know you're modelling consciousness?
How do you know I am conscious? What about your friends? Or your parents?

I'm very glad you raised this. Solipsism is a very important thought experiment in philosophy that people overlook far too quickly.

Since I can't even objectively prove that anyone I know is conscious how can someone ever know a computer is?

Again, I believe in the evidence for a low level of psi ability in humans from such experiments as the Ganzfeld and staring experiments.

For me, proof of computer consciousness would have to include computer psi ability.

If that was ever demonstrated then that would really give me a lot to think about!

Would your program be conscious if you printed it out on a piece of paper? Why so? Why not so?
It would be processing information in a very different way, so I would say no. But it would still experience, because all things experience. Granted, the experience of being a sheet of paper with ink on it is probably very mundane.


I imagine it's probably non-existent.

Why do you say that "all things experience"? And how do you get experierience without consciousness?

Do you think that having it on a hard disk and having an electric current pass though the computer matters somehow? If so, why?
Yes. Because the information processing being done is now harnessed rather than random, and is thus computation.

There were mechanical and hydraulic computers long before there were electric powered computers. They were certainly computing data and not just running randomly.

Do you agree with Daniel Dennett about thermostats having beliefs about too hot, too cold and just right?
Given a certain definition of belief, of course.


What definition of belief? Would you say there is "experience" in the sense of some very rudimentary form of consciousness as the thermostat processes information about the ambient temperature in order to make a "decision".

~
HypnoPsi
 
I would agree, basically, though I think it's important to be aware that visual perception alone, for example, does not really allow the organism to self-distinguish. It needs to feel the body also. It's not clear for me why this is relevant when we're considering how a mass of neurons comes to create consciousness, but no doubt you will explain this.

It is relevant because 1) you have disagreed with such statements in other threads and 2) it is the foundation for a coherent notion of "self" -- which you deny exists.
 
HypnoPsi said:
I'm very glad you raised this. Solipsism is a very important thought experiment in philosophy that people overlook far too quickly.
That's because it loses its punch with even a cursory look. And we both know why: It has no explanation for the consistency of the external world. :D

~~ Paul
 
Indeed. If an organ in the brain called a hippocampus is destroyed, that person cannot form new memories. You can Google "Clive Wearing" on youtube to see the horrific result this has. If a person cannot form a memory without a hippocampus-- then what kind of consciousness would there be without a brain? If consciousness is so severely disabled without a hippocampus, what would it be with no brain at all? Non existent--obviously. The convoluted reasoning to deny this boggles my mind-- but not as much as not having a hippocampus would.
Yep.

This is what turned our understanding that mind is brain function from overwhelming correlative evidence to overwhelming causative evidence: Not what the mind does when the brain is working, but what the mind does when the brain is broken.

From ten thousand years of substance abuse, to Phineas Gage, to the blind gentleman navigating the obstacle course unaided, we have been able to map out, piece by piece, what parts of the brain are responsible for what.

Until there is nothing left.

HypnoPsi, Plumjam, Malerin: You do not grasp how much is known today about how the brain generates the mind. There is simply no room left for any rational question here.

Listen to the MIT Introduction to Psychology lecture series. Listen to all of it. Stop making things up about shared mystical experiences and learn what really goes on in the brain - it is far more exciting and infinitely more important.
 
And if we interfere with a TV ariel the reception is effected.

So what? Correlation is not causation.

~
HypnoPsi

For sure, it could be that the brain is just channelling a pure, undifferentiated consciousness, and creating a world of limited form from it. But personally, I still see problems here. I don't buy the 'brain in a vat' argument. It's too complex to set up, as Dennett points out, and actually there's quite a liklihood that there is no Stream of Consciousness, as Blackmore says. I mean, for sure we will never know with any degree of certainty what's really going on. Evolution only answers questions to a certain degree. All other theories do the same. But I think a lot of the propositions that idealist and theist ideologies have been based upon in the past have now been pretty much overthrown.

I buy materialism over deism because deism doesn't matter to me. So what if there's a God and it just doing it's thing? What does it matter? So what if it's there and it can never be proven it's there? If there's a God and it's so feeble it needs this creation of it to believe in it then I say "**** that God," and I can do so wholeheartedly. I refuse to believe in an entity that needs me to believe in it. The Gnostics had this whole scene down pat 2000 years ago. They let go of the demi-urge because they understood that mankind could only lose by accepting its sovereignty.

Nick
 
The issue is that we choose to exercise a great deal of free will in certain instances, and think we have, when in fact we did not.


No. That is simply not what any of these studies have suggested. All of these studies rely on subjective judging on the part of the subject in some way or another - usually about timing at the milisecond level.

The experimental design simply cannot control all of the variables necessary to reach the conclusion you have reached.


People like him can't simply say "soooo many people feel this... so it must be there," anymore. Numbers don't matter now, because we have these studies that show every single human was wrong about a perception of their own consciousness.


But that is only to accuse PlumJam of doing exactly what you have ended up doing yourself. The data Libet, for example, gained was all based on the subjects judgement of timing.

It's very interesting but there is no way to know it's truly reliable.

~
HypnoPsi
 
The thing is, if you define dualism as two incommensurate substances (by that I´m taking you to mean two kinds of stuff which could not in principle effectively interact with each other) somehow mysteriously interacting, then you have already decided the problem, in your favour, via your definitions.
My own position is that there are various types of stuff in reality, which manage to interact effectively with each other, within the (as a nod to your outlook) monism of idealism or Universal Consciousness . Soul, mind and body might be a few examples.
The fact that we don´t, in 2008, understand within our particular society, in a way which can be represented in numbers and mathematical relationships, how this happens, is, to me, of almost no import.
The alternative of a monism of matter, which no one will in principle have any kind of evidence for, would be a case of taking faith too far. And this in a millieu in which faith (at least on this forum) is more or less despised.


OK, but I didn't develop the idea of substance or the interaction problem. We have all inherited it from Plato and Descartes. So, it isn't me stacking the deck. I assume you are familiar with many of the details so we needn't repeat them.

And, again, the issue isn't really that we don't know how differing substances are supposed to interact, as though the mechanism is out there waiting for us, but that the very idea of mechanism implies the sort of stuff we deal with on a daily basis and which is commonly covered by "materialism" (though I don't particularly like that term) -- meaning, simply, rule following.

I don't think it matters what the underlying "stuff" is. You can't know it. I can't know it. None of us can know it. I'm fine with anyone who wants to call it God, Mind, whatever.

What we can know is that thought exists. It is, however, an assumption to move from that epistemic statement that we know thought exists to the idea that thought is the primary existent on which everything is built. That requires a leap itself, so we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that the means by which epistemology is possible equals fundamental ontology.

I'm afraid that radical doubt leaves us with radical doubt minus "thought exists (or thought happens)". If you can provide a means outside that state you would have produced a viable and interesting philosophy. Descartes' solution was to try and prove the existence of God, which isn't a particularly satisfying solution because his ontological proof doesn't work well enough to prove what he wanted.
 

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