Israeli blockade 'forces Palestinians to search rubbish dumps for food'

[Pardalis]

This links states it's half the fuel:

The amount confiscated is approximately 400,000 of the 800,000 liters of diesel transferred to Gaza weekly and intended for uses such as generators, hospitals, water pumps and sewage pumps. In contrast, Hamas uses this fuel for militant purposes.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/974043.html

 

[ddt]

So, care to elaborate how that went the last 6 months? You know, when there was a ceasefire? I asked before, and no-one cared to answer.

So, it did have the effect that rocket firing at Sderot et al. (nearly) stopped.

I note that BirdStrike, in his response, coloured the word "nearly" red. I have, however, yet to see the first link to a newspaper article that there have been rockets fired at Sderot and surroundings. BirdStrike, WildCat, care to give a link?

 

[DC]

yet. Blockades take a long time to work, when they work at all.

Flash back to WW II, late 1943.

Churchill: "Damnit, the blockade isn't working, Jerry is still fighting, call it off."

That was already there. See rocket attacks and Hamas charter . . .

sure, and the blockade is doing nada to reduce it, in contrary it is creating even more.

OK, so UN and peace enforcement? Peace at the point of a gun? Or, Peacekeeping, which is peace kept after peace is agreed? Wait, they don't agree yet ...

yes first one need an agreement, and that will be very hard.
In contrary to many many arabs, i accept that Israel has a right to be there.

yes i think it was one of the most stupid ideas humans ever had, to create Israel. but now its there and removing it is not an option. atleast for me.

and thats why they should try to win the hearts of the people.
and eye for an eye will not do that.
you have to offer something, but you have to be carefull so you dont support the wrong ones. those that will use your help against you.

to find an agreement with hamas seems impossible to me.
but find an agreement with the majority of Palestinians, i am sure it can be done. But BOTH sides have to move from their position.

Can Hamas also stop with an eye for an eye, DC?

if it only was the eyes......
i doubt it. But i belive it is posible to turn the people away from Hamas or even against them (which isnt a good ides, will end very bloody)

Perhaps.

Weapons inspections are a lot more manpower intensive than mere general embargo. (See Red Sea and PG MISO ops for twelve years, NATO and WEU arms embargo in Adriatic for five as good examples of the resources required.)

I think it should be worth the effort, it will save lives on both sides and not only on one side and create more hatred on the other side.

Maybe a multinational flotilla?

Who do you trust? Who does Israel trust? Who do the Pals trust?

Oil for food, for fifty, Alex.

Jamaica Defence Force for example

na an international group.
they should take controll over both, Israel and Palestina.

 

[Tailgater]

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the...ian+population+in+Gaza+hostage+7-May-2008.htm

The London Independent reported on 24 April on the artificial crisis caused by Hamas, which even caused the UN to suspend food aid to 650,000 refugees in the Gaza Strip after running out of fuel for its delivery vehicles. An emergency tanker sent to the Nahal Oz terminal to collect fuel was turned back by demonstrators, and was forced to return empty. EU condemns Hamas actions which lead to further suffering of the Palestinian population

On 24 April, the Presidency of the EU stated that Hamas activities were obstructing and even preventing humanitarian work by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA).

Hamas nationalizing fuel supplies meant for the civilian population

In another report, Nissim Keinan of Israel's Second Radio channel reported on 4 May that Hamas was in fact holding the civilian population hostage. He stated that Hamas has nationalized all the fuel supplies transferred by Israel for the civilian population, and for operation of the electricity plant, and is using it solely for its own purposes. In addition, food sent by the donor countries is allocated in accordance with Hamas instructions. Of the thousands of tons of grains, food and fuel that were transferred, none was able to reach the civilian population.

 

[BirdStrike]

I note that BirdStrike, in his response, coloured the word "nearly" red. I have, however, yet to see the first link to a newspaper article that there have been rockets fired at Sderot and surroundings. BirdStrike, WildCat, care to give a link?

You're kidding right? You have to be. Seriously. Rockets came a couple days after the ceasefire was called and haven't stopped since.

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3335271,00.html

This was the seventh rocket to be fired into Israel from the Gaza Strip, since the ceasefire was declared, just one week ago. Israel continues to restrain itself and is not responding to the shooting, and this has indeed been one of the more quiet weeks to pass on the southern residents in the recent months.

JUNE 2008 - Terrorists in Hamas-run Gaza violated the six-day-old ceasefire by firing a mortar shell and at least two Kassam rockets into Israel on Monday night and Tuesday. Several people were lightly hurt, including one with shrapnel injuries. A number of children were treated for shock.

I refuse to provide you with any more evidence until you actually make an effort to inform yourself about this subject.

This links states it's half the fuel:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/974043.html

Personally I give up Pardalis. It's like debating a truthers who shall claim that your "undetermined fraction of of fuel..."

 

[Tailgater]

na an international group.
they should take controll over both, Israel and Palestina.

While that sounds good on the surface, I think we just end up with another Afgan/Iraq mess.

 

[BirdStrike]

This is from the BBC. Hardly an "Israeli apologist."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6958021.stm

The EU cut off funding last Thursday because of concerns over plans by the Islamist group Hamas, which controls Gaza, to tax electricity bills.

That is how "F" up Hamas is. That is how much they love the people. After taking over in a bloody coup they were going to tax them for fuel in Gaza! Is that messed up or what?

Earlier, the former Palestinian prime minister, Ismail Haniya of Hamas, said the decision to withdraw funding amounted to collective punishment for the people of Gaza.

That popular sound bite sound familiar anyone?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2007/08/2008525134239119304.html

Riyad al-Malki, information minister in the Ramallah-based government set up by the Mahmoud Abbbas, the president, after he dismissed the Hamas-majority cabinet, said Hamas was to blame for the blackouts.

"We warned for weeks that Gaza would fall into darkness if Hamas does not stop occupying the electricity company and does not stop holding on to millions of shekels that they collected from the people of Gaza," he said.

And guess what. Hamas did anyways.

 

[Darth Rotor]

yes first one need an agreement

Forty one years and counting ...

Jamaica Defence Force for example

na an international group.
they should take controll over both, Israel and Palestina.

Take control?

That isn't a peaceful act, and the UN doesn't have the back bone to do that "take control" thing. The JDF isn't stupid enough to sign up for that mission without a previous agreement. Back you go to square zero.

As I asked The Fool: how do you get that agreement? Better minds than yours and mine have wrestled over that and come up with bloody eff all.

More on this peacekeeping thing: see the pre NATO difficulties in Bosnia for examples of how badly screwed up a peacekeeping effort with crap for C2, crap for operational concept, and no agreement turns out.

Badly, that's how, no matter how hard the multinational troops from over a dozen countries worked at getting it right. They were set up by crappy operational concept from the top down. The peace to keep wasn't there.

DR

 

[WildCat]

There were 11 parties in the election: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/PAelections.html​

One of them was:

7. The National Coalition for Justice and Democracy (Wa'ad)

Led by Eyad el-Sarraj, this party advocates human rights and enforcing the rule of law. This is a small party with 12 candidates running on the ballot.

Now you'd think, with most (if not all) of the 10 other parties being composed of terrorists that this party could walk into power, what with the support of the peace-loving Palestinians Tin Foil Timothy and others claim make up the majority.​

And yet, this party got a Cynthia McKinney percentage of the votes despite the other 10 parties splitting the violent jihadi vote.​

Either there was massive, undetected election fraud in 2006, or the overwhelming majority of Palestinians are in fact violent terrorist supporting thugs who want war with Israel, or there is some other reason the only party advocating peace and the rule of law has such miniscule support.​

What do you think it is a_u_p?​

Anyone here who claims that most Palestinians are peace-loving and don't support terrorism want to take a crack at explaining this?

 

[Tailgater]

Anyone here who claims that most Palestinians are peace-loving and don't support terrorism want to take a crack at explaining this?

Fear of the opposing party would be my guess. If you fear Fatah, you're going to vote Hamas and vice-versa. Most likely, the peace party would be killed by both parties to reassume control.

You won't vote Lib if you are voting out of fear against the Dems. You vote Rep even if you really can't stand either party. My best shot at a weak analogy.

ETA: I just think the mindset of people there is hard to understand. They are told alot of lies and have to make survival decisions when it comes to that particular issue.

 

[Pardalis]

Take control?

That isn't a peaceful act, and the UN doesn't have the back bone to do that "take control" thing. The JDF isn't stupid enough to sign up for that mission without a previous agreement. Back you go to square zero.

Since the UN is responsible for creating Israel to begin with, the most extreme elements in the Muslim world will just see the UN "taking control" of the region as confirmation of their paranoid belief that the West is on a crusade to occupy their land, which will spur the violence even more.

 

[WildCat]

Fear of the opposing party would be my guess. If you fear Fatah, you're going to vote Hamas and vice-versa. Most likely, the peace party would be killed by both parties to reassume control.

You won't vote Lib if you are voting out of fear against the Dems. You vote Rep even if you really can't stand either party. My best shot at a weak analogy.

Except by all contemporary accounts the 2006 PA elections were free and fair. What's more, they were anonymous so voters didn't have to fear for their lives by voting against the terrorists.

 

[Tailgater]

Yes, we have enough tapes about evil western occupiers going around as it is.

 

[Tailgater]

Except by all contemporary accounts the 2006 PA elections were free and fair. What's more, they were anonymous so voters didn't have to fear for their lives by voting against the terrorists.

True, yet I wonder if it entered into the decision making proccess. A voter who is known to be vocal against Fatah sitting in the booth, wondering what's going to happen to them if they win the election because the peacelovers split votes, might just roll the dice and hope Hamas cares more about them. Just a thought. I would like to hear what an average Palestinian would say over it. I'll look into it.

 

[Tailgater]

http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no57.pdf

 

[Dr Adequate]

Iraq, oil for food, all over again. Just without the oil.

Dr A, are Israel and Hamas at war?

Strange question. I'm not the one doing the semantic quibbling about whether they're "at war" or not. I can't even remember which side says they are and which side says they aren't. Is it the pro-Israelis or the pro-Palestinians who claim that they are "at war"? I'd have to re-read the thread. But I'm not going to, because I don't care, because it is a semantic quibble.

The facts are the facts whether or not they are technically "at war". The Israelis blockade the Palestinians. The Palestinians fire rockets at the Israelis.

You're a Christian, so you can do something about all this that I can't.

Get on your knees and pray.

 

[Dr Adequate]

yet. Blockades take a long time to work, when they work at all.

Flash back to WW II, late 1943.

Churchill: "Damnit, the blockade isn't working, Jerry is still fighting, call it off."

Er ... you've got that the wrong way round. In World War Two, the Germans blockaded the British. And the British won, 'cos we are so awesome cool.

I'm not much for nationalism, but the Battle of Britain and the Battle of the Atlantic? Damn we are good.

 

[gdnp]

Anyone here who claims that most Palestinians are peace-loving and don't support terrorism want to take a crack at explaining this?

who claimed that palestinians were peace-loving and don't support terrorism?

Although this is little proof one way or the other. I would hate to measure the support in the US for environmental causes by the number of votes the Green party got or the support for consumer causes by the number of votes Ralph Nader got.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Anyone here who claims that most Palestinians are peace-loving and don't support terrorism want to take a crack at explaining this?

When people feel threatened they will go along with and support the actions of people and groups who they believe provide them with some level of protection from what threatens them.

 

[ddt]

Except by all contemporary accounts the 2006 PA elections were free and fair. What's more, they were anonymous so voters didn't have to fear for their lives by voting against the terrorists.

I took Tailgater's comment more to mean an analogy with the USA 2004 election: you don't want Bush re-elected, so you're going to vote Kerry, even though your heart goes out more to Nader.

http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no57.pdf

Thanks. Interesting figures.