Israeli blockade 'forces Palestinians to search rubbish dumps for food'

[gdnp]

If a terrorist organization is stealing aid is it your contention that aid should continue to flow unchecked? Yes or no.

If a terrorist organization is stealing an undetermined portion of food aid and then presumably selling it or distributing it to the population in need and the alternatives are to continue supplying food aid or having the population who had their aid stolen scrounge in garbage dumps for food, should the food aid be cut off? Yes or no?

You have left the realm of reality. Really you have. You are bending over backwards and twisting into a pretzel to cling to a ill-informed position.

Unresponsive ranting aside, You have yet to define how Hamas stealing some undetermined fraction of food aid is a threat to Israel.

OMFG. What a load.

If someone reports an unauthorized withdrawal from their bank account IT IS CLOSED BY THE BANK to STOP THE THEIVES from withdrawing more money. The bank does not take the rest of the money away from the person holding the compromised bank account.

And yet, when the Gaza residents have a portion of their food aid stolen my Hamas, your solution is to cut off food aid. Go figure.

If someone reports an unauthorized use from their credit card IT IS CANCELED BY THE BANK to STOP THE THEIVES from USING THE CREDIT CARD. The bank does not take the credit card away from the person holding the compromised credit card.

Well, generally they cancel the card and reissue it so that the VICTIM of the thieves can continue purchasing. Do you really not see the problem with your analogy?

edited to add: There is no mechanism to stop Hamas from stealing aid for it's operations, that is why Israel restricts aid to Gaza. Period. End of story.

Does the punishment fit the crime?

Are you here because you like the adrenaline rush from screaming iprofanity via your computer keyboard or because you actually wish to contribute an intellectual discussion?

I have used ZERO profanity-laden personal attacks in this thread. The fact that you created a strawman whereby I am using profanity exposes the utter weakness of your position.

I did not accuse you of making profanity-laden personal attacks, thus ironically making your "defense" a straw man. I accused you of "screaming iprofanity via your keyboard" in response to this statement:

Why the ^%#% that has to be spoon fed to posters here exposes the gross level of ignorance in this matter.

I will let others decide whether or not it is a personal attack to accuse someone of a "gross level of ignorance"

What polarizes this discussion is people - see: you - behaving as experts on this subject. Then, when they - see: you -are confronted with documentation and facts that are linked and cited, they - see: you - continue to flame the person who was kind enough to provide documented evidence.

I have never claimed to be an expert on the subject. I have not, to my knowledge, denied the validity of any of the factual information that you have posted. I have, however, challenged your interpretation of those facts, in particular regarding the legitimacy of Israeli actions, as well as the underlying logic (or lack thereof) in your arguments.

That is why there is polarization of this discussion. You are no different than a 9-11 truther.

Really? please elaborate. Or is this just another gratuitous ad hominem insult?

 

[Pardalis]

and im totaly convinced that they will not blame Hamas for the hunger, they will blame Israel.

no mather if that is rational or not.

the Palestinians dont have the Information we have. i doubt they know that hamas is stealing food.

Are you saying that Hamas is stealing food to fuel hatred against Israel, DC?

 

[Pardalis]

If a terrorist organization is stealing an undetermined portion of food aid and then presumably selling it or distributing it to the population in need and the alternatives are to continue supplying food aid or having the population who had their aid stolen scrounge in garbage dumps for food, should the food aid be cut off? Yes or no?

How do you know they are redistributing the stolen food to the population? Why steal it in the first place then?

So Hamas is back at being a terrorist organization now?

 

[Darth Rotor]

But still, if Israel maintains the blockade, and Hamas is the only organization capable of breaching it, then this brings power, money, and kudos to Hamas.

Iraq, oil for food, all over again. Just without the oil.

Dr A, are Israel and Hamas at war?

 

[ddt]

I think you meant this link:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1048067.html

Thanks for the correction. I got both links from the blog of Anja Meulenbelt, a Dutch feminist, member of the Upper House for the Socialist Party, and married to a Gazan. Some articles are in English.

 

[BirdStrike]

If a terrorist organization is stealing an undetermined portion of food aid...

I just "determined" it. With multiple links above. Over 25+ trucks, and 60,000 liters of fuel in less than six months. And those were the ones that were reported in the international media. I can guarantee there were more unreported in the international media.

...and then presumably selling it or distributing it to the population in need...

So Hamas is stealing aid from the UN shipments to "presumably selling it or distributing it?" Does that make any sense?

Unresponsive ranting aside, You have yet to define how Hamas stealing some undetermined fraction of food aid is a threat to Israel.

This "undetermined fraction of food aid" ...allows Hamas to clothe, feed and fuel it's military forces and their allies first.

And yet, when the Gaza residents have a portion of their food aid stolen my Hamas, your solution is to cut off food aid.

My solution is to restrict supplies to a hostile military force who is stealing the supplies. Especially when that hostile military force stealing the supplies is a threat to a) Israel and, b) additionally the Palestinian Authority.

I really feel like I am debating a 9-11 truther...

 

[gdnp]

The Islamist party Hamas has won control of seven out of 10 councils in the Gaza Strip, dealing a crushing blow to the Fatah party of the Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas. Voters rejected Fatah's corrupt image and endorsed Hamas for its opposition to Israel and for providing welfare, schools and nurseries to the impoverished residents of the territory.

The people spoke. Democracy in action. Now the Gazans and Hamas have to take responsibility for their choices. I don't

Let's see. Since Fatah is also in opposition to Israel, I would assume that the people voted for Hamas because of the way they differed from Fatah, not because of how they were similar.

Now, how did they differ? Oh, I guess that would be because Fatah was corrupt and because Hamas provided welfare, schools, and nurseries.

Yeah, those evil Gazans. The people spoke. They voted for welfare, schools, and nurseries over corruption. They need to be punished.

 

[DC]

Are you saying that Hamas is stealing food to fuel hatred against Israel, DC?

No actually I didnt say that, i didnt consider it that way.
no mather if they do it to fuel hatred (i doubt they think so far) or for any other reason.
the Palestinian kids do not know. they know they are hungry, and they know there is a blockade from Israel. Im sure they will blame Israel.

 

[gdnp]

How do you know they are redistributing the stolen food to the population? Why steal it in the first place then?

I suspect someone is eating it, and the Hamas members are not eating it all themselves. Hamas is either distributing it themselves to gain the loyalty of the population or selling it to raise funds, either for their own operations or personal enrichment. I have heard stories of food aid given by the US to Africa being rebagged to conceal US generosity. I would not be surprised if Hamas was doing the same here. They want the people to be grateful to them, not to the UN. Does anyone have more definitive information on what was done?

 

[Darth Rotor]

No actually I didnt say that, i didnt consider it that way.
no mather if they do it to fuel hatred (i doubt they think so far) or for any other reason.
the Palestinian kids do not know. they know they are hungry, and they know there is a blockade from Israel. Im sure they will blame Israel.

Hmm.

Kids in Gaza are hungry. Sucks.

Kids in Israel die from rocket attacks, or get injured. Sucks.

Plenty of suckage to go around, don't you think? Which form of suckage do you think is more fair? Is either fair? How do you put pressure on the Pals in Gaza to stop the rocket attacks?

Seriously?

How Do You Do That?

Assumption: neither you, nor I, nor the Israeli government, nor Hamas, nor anyone in Gaza wants to see the IDF tanks roll into Gaza to stamp out rocket attacks. That would be suckage³
DR

 

[Tailgater]

Why don't you go and live in Gaza for a year and see what it's like.

Do you live there? You like to use that line. Whats good for the goose and all. I know he's spent alot of time in that part of the world. Have you left your moms basement?


http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=hamas+rockets+at+israel&FORM=MSNH11

http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=hamas+suicide+bombers+in+israel&go=&form=QBRE

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/...danian-aid-to-palestinians-official-says.html

The aid that goes in now doesn't even get to the general public, it goes to people who support Hamas.

"We have been astonished over this behaviour, because the trucks carried humanitarian aid for the entire Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip regardless of their political affiliations," he said.

He appealed to Hamas leaders to approve the Palestinian Red Crescent Society as the sole body recognized on an international level for distributing Jordanian and other Arab aid which was being dispatched through Jordanian territory.

Abbadi said the seized aid was the 235th batch of Jordanian and Arab aid to the Gaza Strip worth a total of 54 million dinars (76 million dollars).

He urged Hamas leaders to "stop these practices because the Hashemite Organization is planning the dispatch of more aid from Arab, Islamic and friendly countries to the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip."

remember when?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/feb/03/20060203-111448-6001r/

Leading Hamas official Mahmoud Zahar rejected Western and Egyptian pressure for his movement to recognize Israel and renounce violence.

"The Western nations can take their aid and get lost," he told The Washington Times just before leaving his home for Friday prayers.

Mr. Zahar had invited The Times to visit his four-story home, recently rebuilt after his somewhat more modest dwelling was destroyed by Israeli jets more than two years ago, to discuss how his movement would respond to Western demands.

"Israel is not a legitimate entity, and no amount of pressure can force us to recognize its right to exist," he said.

This ones kind of interesting. Hamas really cares about the people. Especially ones that support other parties.

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtml/2007/06/19/world/20070620_GAZA_FEATURE.html#

 

[Pardalis]

I suspect someone is eating it, and the Hamas members are not eating it all themselves. Hamas is either distributing it themselves to gain the loyalty of the population or selling it to raise funds, either for their own operations or personal enrichment. I have heard stories of food aid given by the US to Africa being rebagged to conceal US generosity. I would not be surprised if Hamas was doing the same here. They want the people to be grateful to them, not to the UN.

But in the links it is said that it's food from the Red Crescent that is being stolen, food from their fellow Muslim. Militias stealing food for themselves is an old practice.

 

[BirdStrike]

Let's see. Since Yeah, those evil Gazans. The people spoke. They voted for welfare, schools, and nurseries over corruption. They need to be punished.

Hamas didn't just drop out of a gumdrop tree one day with welfare, schools, and nurseries. Hamas has been around for over a decade, sending suicide bombers. When Hamas did end up building schools, and nurseries after years of terrorism, it did so to manipulate people to support their military actions.

For nearly a decade, Hamas's political platform has been no secret. With Hamas there is no acceptance of coexistence, there is no support for the idea of two states living side by side in peace. Hamas has an exclusive demand, based on fundamentalist interpretations of religious texts.

Don't you get it? It's not about kids, it's about Islamic fundamentalism.

2008 - The ruling Hamas movement on Wednesday replaced hundreds of striking teachers with its own supporters, purging Gaza's education system of its political rivals and deepening its control of the coastal territory.

 

[DC]

Hmm.

Kids in Gaza are hungry. Sucks.

Kids in Israel die from rocket attacks, or get injured. Sucks.

Plenty of suckage to go around, don't you think? Which form of suckage do you think is more fair? Is either fair? How do you put pressure on the Pals in Gaza to stop the rocket attacks?

Seriously?

How Do You Do That?

Assumption: neither you, nor I, nor the Israeli government, nor Hamas, nor anyone in Gaza wants to see the IDF tanks roll into Gaza to stamp out rocket attacks. That would be suckage³
DR

the blockade didnt stop the rocket atacks, so the blockade is not working as intended, it has a very nasty and dangerous side effect.
creating hatred.

I? i would support the Palestinian people with all i can get to get theyr Infrastructure back working and would help them building up theyr state, so they can atleast have a better live. I would hope that this will help reducing the Hatred against Israel and will turn them away from Hamas.
I also would call in International peacekeepers on both side of the borders.
I would support the Israeli / Palestinian peace organisations.

I would try to get Israel of the course of an eye for an eye etc.

but thats wishfull thinking.

I think stopping the blockade expect for weappons would be a nice thing.

 

[gdnp]

I just "determined" it. With multiple links above. Over 25+ trucks, and 60,000 liters of fuel in less than six months. And those were the ones that were reported in the international media.

Really? what fraction of the food aid was this? 100%? 25%? 10%? 1%?

I can guarantee there were more unreported in the international media.

Any your personal guarantee carries what weight?

So Hamas is stealing aid from the UN shipments to "presumably selling it or distributing it?" Does that make any sense?

Yes. Hamas takes the stuff and then distributes it themselves, thus making the population dependent on them rather than the UN.

This "undetermined fraction of food aid" ...allows Hamas to clothe, feed and fuel it's military forces and their allies first.

No doubt. You still have not answered what fraction was stolen and what fraction that was stolen goes to their military forces and what fraction goes to the general poplulation. If, for example, they stole 10% of the aid and used 2% for their forces and distributed 8% to the poor, would this justify cutting off 100% of the aid?

My solution is to restrict supplies to a hostile military force who is stealing the supplies. Especially when that hostile military force stealing the supplies is a threat to a) Israel and, b) additionally the Palestinian Authority.

Your solution is not being questioned. You have made it quite clear. What is being questioned is whether the collateral damage caused by your solution justifies the benefits. You believe it does. I believe it does not. Why this causes you to foam at the mouth is still not clear to me.

I really feel like I am debating a 9-11 truther...

Why? do you lose those arguments as well?

 

[Skeptic]

(Sigh)

You know, folks, on second thought, perhaps the reason for such invective against Israel from the "progressive" camp has nothing to do with antisemitism after all. Perhaps it is just the same old, same old sinking feeling progressives get when it turns out that, once again, the latest "Freedom fighters" and "revolutionaries" and "armed resistance groups" they had so devoutely supported turn out to be murderous thugs -- much like Stalin, and Mao, and Ho Chi Minh, and the Khmer Rouge, and Castro, and Che Guevara, and... well, you get the point.

The ol' "we were taken for a ride AGAIN - will we never learn?" feeling must be rather hard to swallow. So the usual "they didn't do it, if you say they did it's propaganda against the freedom fighters, if it's not propaganda you can't prove they did it, if you can prove they did it they were forced to it by the evil Israelies (or the USA, or the 'Capitalist-Imperialist west', or whatever), and anyway, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!" embarrased (and angry) defense against undeniable proof of the Palestinian terrorist organizations' genocidal intention kicks in.

We've seen this before from Stalin to Castro to Ho Chi Minh. Why should Hamas and the PLO be treated any differently?

 

[WildCat]

There have to be elections. They have to choose between .....

There were 11 parties in the election: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/PAelections.html​

One of them was:​

7. The National Coalition for Justice and Democracy (Wa'ad)​

Led by Eyad el-Sarraj, this party advocates human rights and enforcing the rule of law. This is a small party with 12 candidates running on the ballot.

Now you'd think, with most (if not all) of the 10 other parties being composed of terrorists that this party could walk into power, what with the support of the peace-loving Palestinians Tin Foil Timothy and others claim make up the majority.

And yet, this party got a Cynthia McKinney percentage of the votes despite the other 10 parties splitting the violent jihadi vote.​

Either there was massive, undetected election fraud in 2006, or the overwhelming majority of Palestinians are in fact violent terrorist supporting thugs who want war with Israel, or there is some other reason the only party advocating peace and the rule of law has such miniscule support.​

What do you think it is a_u_p?​

 

[DC]

PLO and Hamas are NOT terrorists

what forum was you reading?

most here agree that Hamas is a terroristic organisation.
but it was claimed that the Palestinian kids are not terrorists.

but after reading your posts, im sure you see them as not grown up terrorists...

Are you sure that not you are the usefull idiot used by your Government to defend an occupation and unjust blockade against civilians.

 

[Darth Rotor]

the blockade didnt stop the rocket atacks, so the blockade is not working as intended

yet. Blockades take a long time to work, when they work at all.

Flash back to WW II, late 1943.

Churchill: "Damnit, the blockade isn't working, Jerry is still fighting, call it off."

, it has a very nasty and dangerous side effect.
creating hatred.

That was already there. See rocket attacks and Hamas charter . . .

I also would call in International peacekeepers on both side of the borders.
I would support the Israeli / Palestinian peace organisations.

OK, so UN and peace enforcement? Peace at the point of a gun? Or, Peacekeeping, which is peace kept after peace is agreed? Wait, they don't agree yet ...

I would try to get Israel of the course of an eye for an eye etc.

Can Hamas also stop with an eye for an eye, DC?

but thats wishfull thinking.

Perhaps.

I think stopping the blockade expect for weappons would be a nice thing.

Weapons inspections are a lot more manpower intensive than mere general embargo. (See Red Sea and PG MISO ops for twelve years, NATO and WEU arms embargo in Adriatic for five as good examples of the resources required.)

Maybe a multinational flotilla?

Who do you trust? Who does Israel trust? Who do the Pals trust?

Oil for food, for fifty, Alex.

 

[ddt]

I just "determined" it. With multiple links above. Over 25+ trucks, and 60,000 liters of fuel in less than six months. And those were the ones that were reported in the international media.

Really? what fraction of the food aid was this? 100%? 25%? 10%? 1%? Any your personal guarantee carries what weight?

Very good question. Let's see how much fuel is needed for the power plant alone: (from Electronic Intifada):

"The power station requires a minimum of 400,000 liters of industrial fuel per day to produce 65MW," according to OCHA's al-Bayari,

So 60,000 liters fuel stolen in six months time is a drop in a bucket. You need some more links to get to something substantial, BirdStrike!