Send in the tanks! (Chavez)

“Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power”

Benito Mussolini

Is that all it is?

Really?

REALLY?

One part of something is not the whole thing.

Either way, political scholars would disagree with this definition, and I suspect Mussolini was aware he wasn't describing all the facets of the political philosophy.
 
Is that all it is?

Really?

REALLY?

One part of something is not the whole thing.

Either way, political scholars would disagree with this definition, and I suspect Mussolini was aware he wasn't describing all the facets of the political philosophy.

you sayd it is by no definition fascism.

and this is incorrect, it is by the definition of Mussolini. He was a fascist and founder of Fasci Italiani di Combattimento. which is the origin of the term and is meanwhile used for a broader spectrum of similar movements.
 
Why do you think the FT did link to that response? Isn't that alone a kind of retraction?
No, that is not a retraction. A retraction is a statement that what you wrote was inaccurate. A link to a response is just that: a link to a response, allowing readers to read the article and the response and determine for themselves what the reports mean.

Which I did.

It is a derogatory term used to decribe young "economists" indoctrinated by Milton Friedman's radical ideology of free market capitalism at the Chicago School of Economics. Wikipedia has an article about it.
So, why did yo use that term? At no point did I ask for data from a free market capitalist about Venezuela. I specifically suggested UN data or data from a similar neutral third-party. So why did you use that term in this context?

Also, what was the point of the Thatcher quote? Are you assuming that I'm in some way a Thatcherite of some sort? I don't understand why you keep making these insinuations.

It seems to me you were trying to attack me personally and describe me as some sort neoconservative, when all I did was point out that Venezuela's own data may not be reliable. Is this the sort of critical thinking you would admire in others if directed at you?

I've showed UN data in #293.
Yes, and that data differs significantly from Venezuela's own data:

UN Ven HDI v. Ven INE HDI
1990: 0.762 v. 0.8209 (+0.059)
1995: 0.770 v. 0.7839 (+0.014)
2000: 0.776 v. 0.7512 (-0.025)
2005: 0.792 v. 0.8290 (+0.039)
These are not insignificant numbers. If we were to accept Venezuela's 2005 HDI instead of the UN's, Venezuela would move from 74th and out of the "Medium" HDI category to 52nd and into the "High" HDI category. It would then tie with Mexico as having the highest HDI in all of Latin America. That's a significant bump!

Except in 2000, it appears that Venezuela has a history of inflating its HDI numbers (assuming you, like me, find UN numbers more trustworthy than a nation's own statement of its well-being). In 2012 we will probably see the HDI data for Venezuela as of 2010. I don't know of any other trustworthy HDI surveys. Until then, in my opinion, we don't have any reliable data on Venezuela's HDI since 2005.

(Also, you referenced the 2005 data as an "estimate". As far as I can tell, the 2005 data is no more an estimate than any of its other data on HDI. It was published in 2007 with the same status as the HDI data the UN has published for all prior years.)
 
how big was that "persecution"? a few cases or more a systematic government driven persecution.

Howzabout you go and find out yourself. I have given you links to what I questioned you on, that showed what I said happened. Do you need me to come to the bathroom with you as well? There were 2.5 million on that list, I do not know how mant were persecuted exactly.

DC said:
and how easy would a known Chavista get a job in a private owned company?

What?

DC said:
you and me both are not unbiased, or is there an organisation called "try me"?

Try me, bring your links here and I will see if it is unbiased. You really need to brush up your english.
 
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Howzabout you go and find out yourself. I have given you links to what I questioned you on, that showed what I said happened. Do you need me to come to the bathroom with you as well? There were 2.5 million on that list, I do not know how mant were persecuted exactly.



What?
would RCTV hire a journalist that is not on the tascon list?


such a list can be used by everyone.

Try me, bring your links here and I will see if it is unbiased. You really need to brush up your english.
I asked a direct question, hoped for a direct answer. So forget about it.
 
P.S. What's with the quote from Honecker?


He said it only months before he had to resign and the Berlin Wall came down. So, on first view he was terribly wrong, but given the state of capitalism in late 2008, who knows, maybe he had a moment of unusual clarity? I think it's a REALLY funny quote. :)
 
No, that is not a retraction. A retraction is a statement that what you wrote was inaccurate. A link to a response is just that: a link to a response, allowing readers to read the article and the response and determine for themselves what the reports mean.

Which I did.


Well, i disagree. I think it is very unusual that the FT so prominently links to a "response" and suspect there is a story to it.


So, why did yo use that term? At no point did I ask for data from a free market capitalist about Venezuela. I specifically suggested UN data or data from a similar neutral third-party. So why did you use that term in this context?

Also, what was the point of the Thatcher quote? Are you assuming that I'm in some way a Thatcherite of some sort? I don't understand why you keep making these insinuations.

It seems to me you were trying to attack me personally and describe me as some sort neoconservative, when all I did was point out that Venezuela's own data may not be reliable. Is this the sort of critical thinking you would admire in others if directed at you?


Sorry, that was a shot in the dark, a test if you will. I didn't intend to attack you personally with it.


Yes, and that data differs significantly from Venezuela's own data:

UN Ven HDI v. Ven INE HDI
1990: 0.762 v. 0.8209 (+0.059)
1995: 0.770 v. 0.7839 (+0.014)
2000: 0.776 v. 0.7512 (-0.025)
2005: 0.792 v. 0.8290 (+0.039)
These are not insignificant numbers. If we were to accept Venezuela's 2005 HDI instead of the UN's, Venezuela would move from 74th and out of the "Medium" HDI category to 52nd and into the "High" HDI category. It would then tie with Mexico as having the highest HDI in all of Latin America. That's a significant bump!

Except in 2000, it appears that Venezuela has a history of inflating its HDI numbers (assuming you, like me, find UN numbers more trustworthy than a nation's own statement of its well-being). In 2012 we will probably see the HDI data for Venezuela as of 2010. I don't know of any other trustworthy HDI surveys. Until then, in my opinion, we don't have any reliable data on Venezuela's HDI since 2005.

(Also, you referenced the 2005 data as an "estimate". As far as I can tell, the 2005 data is no more an estimate than any of its other data on HDI. It was published in 2007 with the same status as the HDI data the UN has published for all prior years.)


As i said, the numbers are good enough for me. 1990, HDI is on a rise, may have passed UN number in 1989. 1995, Graph passes UN number in early 1995. 2000, Graph passes UN number in late 2000. 2005, Graph passes UN number in late 2003 (together with 1990 the biggest discrepancy).

And the HDI was only the indicator to check most easily - i think my table paints a picture contrary to that painted by corporate media, even if the numbers are not 100% accurate.

btw, the rate of poverty, as Weisbrot explains, doesn't account for the benefits of free health care and education, it only measures income.
 
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...but given the state of capitalism in late 2008...
What do you mean given the state of capitalism in late 2008? Let's make certain that a couple of things are clear. Capitalism works and the nations with the highest HDI have considerable amounts of capitalism. No one said capitalism would never suffer reversals. America has been through a depression and many recessions. Please note however that it was the West that sent large amounts of grain to the East and not vice versa. Also please note that capitalism is not on the verge of collapse and thank goodness for that. Socialism has never shown itself to be an engine of economic growth. Only a means to provide security for many. By itself socialism has never been demonstrated to work on a large scale.
 
Capitalism worked for us pretty well, it works not for our future generations as we left an unpayale credit bubble and plundered natural resources. Capitalism has failed to provide proper social security, it had great succes in propagating mass consumtion and a throwaway society. We are addicted and dont want to become clean.
 
Yes, a lot of people including me and Karl Marx considered capitalism to be a nessessary step in human evolution. Marx said that capitalism had to conquer the whole world before communism could prevail. He would have considered the russian revolution to be at the wrong place, at the wrong time. That's why the soviet society degenerated so fast into totalitarianism (read Trotzki's Revolution betrayed, written in the late 1930s).

But now, after capitalism has conquered the world and an island of rubbish twice the size of North America is swimming in the pacific ocean, and the financial system blows up before our very eyes, and thousands of humans still die of hunger every day, we have to find better ways to organize our planet - not based on greed but based on solidarity.

In East Germany we had solidarity without liberty, now we have liberty without solidarity. We need both.
 
Capitalism worked for us pretty well, it works not for our future generations as we left an unpayale credit bubble and plundered natural resources. Capitalism has failed to provide proper social security, it had great succes in propagating mass consumtion and a throwaway society. We are addicted and dont want to become clean.
There's no reason to think it can't work for our future. There's no reason to think we can't solve our problems concerning credit and exploiting natural resources. And BTW, many people don't have a clue as to how many problems capitalism has solved. Malthusians had predicted our demise many times over. They like all prophets of doom thus far have been wrong. That's not to say that we are not in trouble now. I think we are in serious trouble environmentally and economically but I'm confident that we can solve those problems to.

Let me make the point again, there is no large scale succesful socio-economic model that excludes capitalism.

Ok, one more time.
  • There is no, and has never been, a large scale succesful socio-economic model that has excluded capitalism.
End of story.
 
Yes, a lot of people including me and Karl Marx considered capitalism to be a nessessary step in human evolution. Marx said that capitalism had to conquer the whole world before communism could prevail. He would have considered the russian revolution to be at the wrong place, at the wrong time. That's why the soviet society degenerated so fast into totalitarianism (read Trotzki's Revolution betrayed, written in the late 1930s).
All attempts to implement communism have failed miserably because it is fatally flawed. Human nature is what it is (forgive the tautology). Great thinkers and talented individuals often need motivation to solve problems. Why is it that Fidel Castro made an exception and let artists keep all of their earnings? He figured out that by doing so he would get better artists.

It's simply a fact of our current evolution status.

But now, after capitalism has conquered the world and an island of rubbish twice the size of North America is swimming in the pacific ocean, and the financial system blows up before our very eyes, and thousands of humans still die of hunger every day, we have to find better ways to organize our planet - not based on greed but based on solidarity.
It won't be without capitalism that's for sure. We need to stop thinking in terms of capitalism vs. socialism. The idea that ideologies were competing is just nonsense. Let's knock it off and do what works.

In East Germany we had solidarity without liberty, now we have liberty without solidarity. We need both.
You mean we need to have our cake and eat it to. The best way to solve the problem is let governments set regulation and do what they do best and otherwise get out of the way of capitalism to let it do what it does best. A healthy combination of socialism and capitalism is out best shot at hope.

I pray we never have to go through another Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cuba, etc., etc. Killing hundreds of millions of people and stripping them of their freedom in a vain attempt to create utopia is, IMHO, such a damn stupid idea. You might say it's possible without killing and stripping of freedom but I've never seen it work.
 
The best way to solve the problem is let governments set regulation and do what they do best and otherwise get out of the way of capitalism to let it do what it does best. A healthy combination of socialism and capitalism is out best shot at hope.

I pray we never have to go through another Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cuba, etc., etc. Killing hundreds of millions of people and stripping them of their freedom in a vain attempt to create utopia is, IMHO, such a damn stupid idea. You might say it's possible without killing and stripping of freedom but I've never seen it work.


You are equating the idea of communism with the cruel reality of the attempts to bring it about. Wrong time, wrong place. Remember Chavez saying in the Pilger documentary that "nothing is so powerful like an idea whose time has come"? I heard an interview with Richard Wolff lately and he said that "communism is democracy in economics". I think that is a very powerful description (if you are interested, here, but skip the adds, they kill braincells). And that is what's happening in Venezuela. Chavez gives power to the people.

You mean we need to have our cake and eat it to.


That reminds me of my all-time favorite poem by Heinrich Heine. It loses in translation, but anyway, for your pleasure:

... A little maiden with a harp
Entuned a common ditty;
The voice was false, but the pathos true;
It touched my heart to pity.

She sang of love and lovers' woes,
Of loss, and fates that sever,
Of meetings in a better land
Where grief is purged for ever.

She sang our mortal vale of tears,
The joys that end in sadness,
The world where souls, redeemed at last,
Attain eternal gladness.

She sang the epopee of heaven,
The song of loss and sighing,
With which they lull the populace,
Big booby! when it's crying.

I know the song, the text, and the men
Who wrote the song, and taught her;
I know that in private they drank their wine,
And preached in public water.

I will write you a new, a sweeter song;
You shall sing it without a quaver;
We will build the kingdom of heaven on earth
'Tis a better plan and a braver.

We shall then be happy and starve no more:
We whom the earth was spoiled for;
No longer shall lazy bellies waste
What busy hands have toiled for.

Oh, here below there's not only food
In abundance for every comer,
But beauty and pleasure and lollipops,
And the myrtle and rose of summer.

The sugar plums, as soon as they're ripe,
Shall to each and all be given,
And angels and sparrows may have our share
Of the vague delights of heaven.

And if after death our wings should sprout,
We'll pay you a visit with pleasure,
And help you to eat your tarts and cakes,
And similar laid up treasure. ...

:)
 
You are equating the idea of communism with the cruel reality of the attempts to bring it about. Wrong time, wrong place. Remember Chavez saying in the Pilger documentary that "nothing is so powerful like an idea whose time has come"? I heard an interview with Richard Wolff lately and he said that "communism is democracy in economics". I think that is a very powerful description (if you are interested, here, but skip the adds, they kill braincells). And that is what's happening in Venezuela. Chavez gives power to the people.
Thanks.

Cliché is a poor form of argument. In fact, it isn't argument at all. You need to make a case why communism could work beyond the notion that all of the other times were simply the wrong time. That doesn't make any sense. If you are serious you need to examine why communism failed so misserably and so often. Simply saying it was the wrong time is lazy in the extreme. Propaganda (and the use of the word is appropriate here) isn't a reason to try it again.

I'll look at your link but if you are serious I think you need to work a bit harder and give us something more than trite phrases like an idea whose time has come. The concept is fatally flawed because socieities are dynamic and views change. See 60's radicals. Read Animal Farm.
 
You are equating the idea of communism with the cruel reality of the attempts to bring it about.
And that is appropriate. I'm not sure why you think that is something to be dismissed. Communism (so-called) has caused more death, destruction and misery than just about any human construct. It's been a force of unimaginable evil. I'm not convinced that what we think of as Soviet Communism or Chinese Communism or North Korean Communism were in fact Communism but then I don't think Communism on a large scale is even possible. At best you can put guns to people's heads and force them to accept some form of it or kill them.

It's a failed idea with no basis in reason or fact to suppose that could work. Let's not try it again. Please.

BTW: If you look at the Jewish versions they were small and most of them became a mix of socialism and capitalism. Given the direction that China is moving and given the success of the Scandinavian nations it would seem that is the best model.
 
Well, i disagree. I think it is very unusual that the FT so prominently links to a "response" and suspect there is a story to it.
Unusual or not (and I don't think it unusual in the least), it's not a retraction.

As i said, the numbers are good enough for me.
Given that the numbers comport with your personal bias, that's not surprising. But I'm not interested in confirmation. I'm actually interested in the gathering of impartial data.

HDI is on a rise
From the UN data, all that's done to date is that the reduction in HDI during the period of political unrest was undone, restoring Venezuela to the point it was a decade earlier. Whether that increase continues or stops can't be known until we get some objective data.
 
You are equating the idea of communism with the cruel reality of the attempts to bring it about. Wrong time, wrong place. Remember Chavez saying in the Pilger documentary that "nothing is so powerful like an idea whose time has come"? I heard an interview with Richard Wolff lately and he said that "communism is democracy in economics". I think that is a very powerful description (if you are interested, here, but skip the adds, they kill braincells). And that is what's happening in Venezuela. Chavez gives power to the people.




That reminds me of my all-time favorite poem by Heinrich Heine. It loses in translation, but anyway, for your pleasure:

... A little maiden with a harp
Entuned a common ditty;
The voice was false, but the pathos true;
It touched my heart to pity.

She sang of love and lovers' woes,
Of loss, and fates that sever,
Of meetings in a better land
Where grief is purged for ever.

She sang our mortal vale of tears,
The joys that end in sadness,
The world where souls, redeemed at last,
Attain eternal gladness.

She sang the epopee of heaven,
The song of loss and sighing,
With which they lull the populace,
Big booby! when it's crying.

I know the song, the text, and the men
Who wrote the song, and taught her;
I know that in private they drank their wine,
And preached in public water.

I will write you a new, a sweeter song;
You shall sing it without a quaver;
We will build the kingdom of heaven on earth
'Tis a better plan and a braver.

We shall then be happy and starve no more:
We whom the earth was spoiled for;
No longer shall lazy bellies waste
What busy hands have toiled for.

Oh, here below there's not only food
In abundance for every comer,
But beauty and pleasure and lollipops,
And the myrtle and rose of summer.

The sugar plums, as soon as they're ripe,
Shall to each and all be given,
And angels and sparrows may have our share
Of the vague delights of heaven.

And if after death our wings should sprout,
We'll pay you a visit with pleasure,
And help you to eat your tarts and cakes,
And similar laid up treasure. ...

:)


The powers that be save us from Utopians in power. It is not a coindence that the most murderous regimes in history have been attempts to create Utopia.
That anybody after the experience of the 20th century can take Marxism seriously is a sad commentary on the inablity of people to learn from history.
Maybe the Marxist here can explain why it is a coindicence that every Marxist country has sooner or later becoming a ruthless dictatorship.
 
Maybe the Marxist here can explain why it is a coindicence that every Marxist country has sooner or later becoming a ruthless dictatorship.
I'm not a Marxist and I don't mean to speak for CE but it would seem that the timing was simply wrong. It's not very compelling though.
 

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