Send in the tanks! (Chavez)

[DC]

Bolded is all you need.

is enough indeed, enough to show your bias

Now who believes propoganda. he was forced to do it.

how was he forced?

Hypocrite.

eerm, you learned me how this works, what the heck?

about time you remebered something

LOL

OK, good when you decide they are and it depends who who does them. If there was a coup tomorrow in Venezuela supported by the people it would be OK or not?

not OK, Venezuela is a Direct Democracy. the people are able to kick the president out of office with democratic tools, no need for a coup.

Not Chavez obviously

i guess thats true. Afterall he is a ex paratrooper
not like you will find alot fans of Ghandi in any army on this planet.

hypocrite, I am not a believer in armed struggle by people, i lived through years of irish troubles and have been affected personally by them. Think Ghandi

Think Indonesia? (exclude the bomb that went up)

 

[marksman]

Some basic indicators (venezuelan statistics)

Do you happen to have a link to the source of those statistics?

 

[Childlike Empress]

I extracted them from a PDF entitled "9 Years - Social Aspects" which compiles data from the National Institute for Statistics and several branches of the Ministry of Popular Power.

 

[DC]

http://www.demonoid.com/files/detai...nt=6638783&show_files=1&page=1&rel=1219722368

in case you have a Demonoid account, you can download it.

 

[marksman]

I don't have a demonoid account.

I extracted them from a PDF entitled "9 Years - Social Aspects" which compiles data from the National Institute for Statistics and several branches of the Ministry of Popular Power.

Is this Venezuela reporting its own statistics? Do you have statistics from a neutral third party, like the United Nations? I have found Venezuelan statements about its own welfare to be woefully inaccurate.

 

[DC]

also an interesting Docu about RCTV and the Private media in Venezuela.
Including alot Interviews with former RCTV Employes.

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=4925163784859444595&autoPlay=true

 

[DC]

A very interesting link about the US involvement of the failed Coup 2002 against the people of Venezuela.

http://venezuelafoia.info/english.html

 

[DC]

I don't have a demonoid account.



Is this Venezuela reporting its own statistics? Do you have statistics from a neutral third party, like the United Nations? I have found Venezuelan statements about its own welfare to be woefully inaccurate.

there are reports from the UN and the Worldbank.

CE's statistic was made from data from the Venezuelan Goverment, but also from the venezuelan popular power. Those are the people themself, and the poor are very active in popular power.

i dont know how objective the Worldbank report is. Especially considering that Chavez payed back all the credits and canceled membership of the IWF and wordlbank and called them instruments of imperialism.

 

[DC]

btw the interest in the corect translation of Chavez words about taking out the tanks seems not to be big here.

In a sceptical forum i expect that sceptics would look closer into it. but Sceptical thinking is directed in only one side by most in this topic here.

 

[DC]

http://www.narconews.com/Issue30/article808.html

Strange, in 2003 a TV station was raided and the transmition equipment sized.

That happened under Chavez in Venezuela Caracas 2003.

why did that not go true the press?
because it is just TV station made by the people or because it was Chavez oposition that raided it?

 

[OlbarStein]

I can understand your support for Chavez, but being grown up in the GDR I have a distrust in his political views.

The big advantage of Venezuela is oil and it's huge price leap in the recent time. Venezuela will now run into trouble because of sinking prices. Time will tell if he can continue to pay for the social reforms.

Concerning the media I am against any censorship. Obama will have live with FoxNews too.

 

[DC]

I can understand your support for Chavez, but being grown up in the GDR I have a distrust in his political views.

The big advantage of Venezuela is oil and it's huge price leap in the recent time. Venezuela will now run into trouble because of sinking prices. Time will tell if he can continue to pay for the social reforms.

Concerning the media I am against any censorship. Obama will have live with FoxNews too.

what is GDR?
DDR? or what is ment?

It is a very young form of Socialism, the leassons from the failed attempts world wide seem to be learned from alot of the new Latin American Socialists.
I think this is why Direct Democracy and Human Rights are pushed so much by the people.

i am very optimistic that they will get theyr Socialism working.

in case GDR ment DDR, i can fully understand you.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Is this Venezuela reporting its own statistics? Do you have statistics from a neutral third party, like the United Nations? I have found Venezuelan statements about its own welfare to be woefully inaccurate.

Oh really? Please elaborate. I for one am a member of this forum long enough to backcheck something like that before i post it. So i did with the HDI. If you compare the data with that by the UN it doen't seem to fit on first view, but on second view it (roughly) does. The UN HDR only reports every five years and estimates the venezuelan HDI as 0.762 (1990), 0.770 (1995), 0.776 (2000) and 0.792 (2005). Compare that to the annual data by the venezuelan national institute for statistics from my PDF:

Good enough for me to ensure that this data is not made up for political reasons. That's what you and others suggest, right, that the statistical branch of the venezuelan government doesn't do its job and lies about their own country? Sound like CT thinking to me.

btw, all indicators show huge progress during the years 2004-2007 - that is the period after the backlashes by the 2002 coup and the "strike" in the oil business were sorted out.

 

[Childlike Empress]

btw the interest in the corect translation of Chavez words about taking out the tanks seems not to be big here.

In a sceptical forum i expect that sceptics would look closer into it. but Sceptical thinking is directed in only one side by most in this topic here.

Well, Diktatorchen, the problem is that when they listen to us/the data we present, it means at the same time acknowledging that not only FOX/Bush are misleading them, but also CNN/Biden (the latter called Chavez the "venezuelan dictator" not long ago).

They should get used to it. And we didn't even present the strongest argument by now:

When someone like Pat Robertson openly and on live TV calls for the assassination of a democratically elected leader of a souvereign country, one should realize that the person in question can't be that bad/must do something right.

 

[dudalb]

I see somebody is longing for the good old days of East Germany to come back.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I see somebody still hasn't more to add than futile attempts in demonisation of other forum members.

 

[Childlike Empress]

The big advantage of Venezuela is oil and it's huge price leap in the recent time. Venezuela will now run into trouble because of sinking prices. Time will tell if he can continue to pay for the social reforms.

Yes, that is really bad timing for Venezuela. I hope they took enough care of their economics to sit out this temporarily decrease in oil prices. I've posted the following on another thread about Venezuela already and hope they are right:

A new paper from the Center for Economic and Policy Research looks at the Venezuelan economy during the last eight years and finds that it does not fit the mold of an "oil boom headed for a bust," as is commonly believed: The Venezuelan Economy in the Chávez Years by Mark Weisbrot and Luis Sandoval, July 2007

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/indicators

 

[Childlike Empress]

This is the Song Ska-P devoted to Hugo:

 

[marksman]

Good enough for me to ensure that this data is not made up for political reasons. That's what you and others suggest, right, that the statistical branch of the venezuelan government doesn't do its job and lies about their own country? Sound like CT thinking to me.

In a May 11, 2006 article, the Financial Times reported that Venezuela's statistical branch had been reporting that 53% of the people lived in poverty (9% more than had been living in poverty in 1999). Chavez changed the personnel in the branch. Three months later, the same service (the one from which you get your data) revised its data to reflect that only 35% of people were living in poverty, a swing of 18% in three months.
-Cite

Over the last few years, they have been slowly revising all their economic data (and always to make Venezuela look better), to smooth out those numbers.

So, yes, I think I'll wait for a neutral third-party to come up with data. No economical data released by the Venezuelan government in 2006 (which means all data measuring 2005 forward) should be deemed reliable until it has been confirmed by an independent third-party.

 

[Childlike Empress]

In other words there is political pressure in Venezuela that the statistical branch does its job. Public enough to reach the Financial Times. Where's the problem?

You could instead read the report by the Washington based Center for Economic and Policy Research. Or isn't that neutral enough eighter? Does it have to be a Chicago Boy?