Send in the tanks! (Chavez)

[funk de fino]

i searched for examples, and i cannot find what you described.

i found cases like the one where unused land was taken and used to build houses or schools on it etc. Which is also in the Constitution.

And I asked if you though that law was fair.

I dont see him as a Hero. I see him as a politican that does not represent big corporations, i see him as a politican that is representing those people that was not represented for decades. Those people that voted for him. and that is the majority.

I find it just not acceptable that he is called Dictator by the established press. I am shocked that storys are misstranslated/out of context by CNN and others, like the story about bringing out the tanks.

I see you defending him but never attacking him. He is your hero. You call Cheney a Dictator. Hypocrite.

I am wondering why it is accepted without any evidence that the Tascon list was Chavez idea. The List is called Tascon list, not Chavez List. Nor did i see any evidence that he indeed ordered that list to be used. the contrary

Who appointed Tascon? Who stopped the list being used. Chavez talked about it but it was still used after this. There was another list, did you find that one yet?

Tascon published this list on his homepage. and also had a reason why he saw it justifyed, i dont agree with him on it.

Intimidation of opponents is very democratic.

But be honest. When it is about CIA activities you would demand evidence into every detail. but when it is about Chavez, no evidence is needed. a few press reports is enough to establish facts.

I do not defend the CIA.

Its like everythnig the opposition says is accepted as a fact by our media and everything Chavistas say is a lie.

You sound like a truther. I do not read the western media about Chavez. If I did I would bring the quotes here and you would say they were biased.

Critizising Chavez is ok, or also refusing his Bolivarian revolution is OK. I mean this is a very special revolution, and i am suprised how many support it in latin America that are actually not poor but more middleclass. Social thinking seems to be very strong in south america. I like that, but alot do not like that.

I applaud some of what he has done. It is some of what else he has done and will do that worries me.

Butparoting anti Chavez propaganda is not critique, its propaganda. But somehow i can understand it, becuase it is our media that is reporting in a extreme anti Chavez style and most people have not the time to read into more details the storys about Chavez.

Again you need to stop it with the false arguments. I do not parrot propoganda from the media. I only repeat what I have been told by people from the country.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

The Majority of the poeple just Loves el Presidente. Because they feel represented by him, because they feel now that they are a part of Venezuela.

You could quite easily replace El Presidente with Saddam Hussein or Kim Il Sung.

"So what?" springs to mind.

 

[DC]

I was not very upset, you need to stop making things up.

Once again your logic fails you. I am making the distinction between only putting one part of the reform back the people and putting it all back. Why only that one part, why not all the parts seperately?

I guess for Chavez it is the most important part atm. If the people see another part very important and want to change it, since the 1999 constitution from Dictator Chavez, they are able to use direct democratic tools to have a national vote about it. Not only Chavez can do that, Also the Opposition can do that.

It made him a criminal who caused the deaths of citizens.

His insight to give up the coup atempt is said to have saved alot lives. and paved the way to the Bolivarian Revolution like it is taking place now.

Did you know for what reasons the President that Chavez tryed to overthrow back then had to leave office a few years later?

I never said he was.

just wanted to make it clear.

He was involved in this coup.

the Same is said about the CIA.

Ah, so a coup is only a fair coup if you support it. Gotcha.

that is not what i said.
a coup against a fair elected president, that still has the majority behind him can never be just.
Nor can i ever be pro a coup when innocent people get killed.

I would like to be a Che fan, but i cant, because i am more a Ghandi fan.
I like alot of Che's ideas, alot go to far for me, but the worst about him is, that he just shot his opponents.

But when people are surpressed and exploited and have no democratic rules that enables them to change that, what are they suposed to do?

 

[DC]

You could quite easily replace El Presidente with Saddam Hussein or Kim Il Sung.

"So what?" springs to mind.

please?????????

Saddam had the Majority of people behind him? anything that would backup that claim?

Kim has any support from the people in his country? also from such that are not part of his government? he must be amazing to get support from the starving people while playing with nukes.i am also interested in that evidence.

 

[DC]

And I asked if you though that law was fair.



I see you defending him but never attacking him. He is your hero. You call Cheney a Dictator. Hypocrite.



Who appointed Tascon? Who stopped the list being used. Chavez talked about it but it was still used after this. There was another list, did you find that one yet?



Intimidation of opponents is very democratic.



I do not defend the CIA.



You sound like a truther. I do not read the western media about Chavez. If I did I would bring the quotes here and you would say they were biased.



I applaud some of what he has done. It is some of what else he has done and will do that worries me.



Again you need to stop it with the false arguments. I do not parrot propoganda from the media. I only repeat what I have been told by people from the country.

tell me, who used the list and who stoopped the tascon list?

and i dont know about another list. would be nice to see you backup atleast this claim for once.

because the people that told you this are from Venezuela doe that mean they tell the trueth? does that mean they are not influenced by the Venezuelan anti chavez media like RCTV globovision or the newspapers in Venezuela?
Are they using the direct democratic tools that they have acces to since 1999 to try to change what they dislike?

 

[funk de fino]

for me the people are the Government. Maybe that way it looks not that strange. But i can understnad that alot dislike that idea.

Government controlling all credit looks strange to me anyway you put it

Maybe that was needed to get quit the old oligarchy and corruption?I think the new ones will son learn how its best working for Venezuela.

Now who is parroting propoganda? he put his own people in charge who did not have a clue about the oil industry. he could have kept the old guard there and they would have been working for him and for the nation. he is ruining the industry. The output from the wells show this.

Venezuela and others that Nationalized the oil industry are still working together with those companys, just under new conditions, conditionas that the majority of those countrys see as more just to them.

Brazil have a nationlized oil industry yet do not have the problems Chavez has with his. You will never see me saying that to have nationlization of the oil is bad but the way Chavez has done it is bad. I wish the Uk had dealt with the oil they have in a better fairer way, like norway.

i have no problems with that.

Neither do I, I just have probelms with how he has done it.

eerm about what are talking then? i am not suprised he talks about international politics on International events etc.

Not his TV show anyway.

while i dont belive they Orchestrated it, i might try to prove their involvment, after you proofed your claims, deal?

So they did not orchestrate it?

care to prove that the Tascon list was ordered by Chavez or his government?and used in agreement of the Government to deny credits and jobs.

Did I say it was ordered? I aksed you if it was fair. You are tying yourself in knots here mate. Who put Tascon in charge of the list?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

please?????????

Saddam had the Majority of people behind him? anything that would backup that claim?

Kim has any support from the people in his country? also from such that are not part of his government? he must be amazing to get support from the starving people while playing with nukes.i am also interested in that evidence.

Kim Il Sung (the dead one) is revered as being THE supreme being. Even Kim Jong Il, who I might add is hugely popular as well has to play second fiddle to his dead father.

They have him embalmed and thousands flock to see him all the time.

One man blogs about it.

Also check out the book "Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader: North Korea and the Kim Dynasty" by Bradley K. Martin

They love the guy and they think his son is so wonderful too. Despite the fact that many are starving, they are fed HUGE levels of propaganda about how terrible everywhere that isn't N. Korea is, and how wonderful the Kim dynasty is that they lap it up readily when told that Kim Jong Il knows best.

As for Saddam, schoolchildren were made, although hardly unwillingly, to sing songs about how wonderful the great leader was (and to be fair, if you weren't one of the peoples he oppressed he WAS A great leader, if you like strong leaders who do manage to keep the economy ticking over.....sort of).

Hell, they even built mosques to worship him!

Saddam Hussein did not have TOTAL loyalty, it is true, and he used....lets say dishonest tactics to rig elections to make sure it looked like he had 98-99% of the population behind him, to give an air of democracy to his government, but he still would have steamrollered the opposition, even if he hadn't literally done that.

"Saddam has made himself the focus of loyalty. His images in costumed heroic poses are all over the country. The Iraqi media is focused on tributes for the Glorious Leader. His birthday is designated a national holiday. School children memorize poems and songs that worship Saddam. There is no such thing as too much when it comes to personality cults."
linky

"The orphanage was supported by the government and by wealthy donors, she said.

Abu Ali, whose job it is to escort members of the news media wherever they want to go during their stay in Baghdad, translated while the orphans sang songs of welcome to the visiting journalists.

"Our father Saddam Hussein shows us how to be a teacher," the children chanted in unison, with one little boy stepping out and shaking his fist emphatically to the last words of the verse.

"Our father Saddam Hussein shows us how to be a farmer," the children chanted, and another little boy stepped out from the group and shook his fist.

"Our father Saddam Hussein shows us how to be a soldier," the children chanted.

This time an older girl stepped out from the group and said, "And we will kill the American invaders." The children smiled and clapped their hands."
linky deux.

 

[DC]

Government controlling all credit looks strange to me anyway you put it



Now who is parroting propoganda? he put his own people in charge who did not have a clue about the oil industry. he could have kept the old guard there and they would have been working for him and for the nation. he is ruining the industry. The output from the wells show this.



Brazil have a nationlized oil industry yet do not have the problems Chavez has with his. You will never see me saying that to have nationlization of the oil is bad but the way Chavez has done it is bad. I wish the Uk had dealt with the oil they have in a better fairer way, like norway.



Neither do I, I just have probelms with how he has done it.



Not his TV show anyway.



So they did not orchestrate it?



Did I say it was ordered? I aksed you if it was fair. You are tying yourself in knots here mate. Who put Tascon in charge of the list?

Morales his Nationalizng of the Oil industry worked alot better than Chavez his did afaik. Did Morales keep the old people ? and how did Chavez do it? was his only misstake to fire the old people?
How many was fired?

Not his TV show you say? what are you talking of then?

i dont belive RCTV was the only one involved in the Coup, also Globovision was, they are still on air. thats btw why i asked if there are other reasons to not renew the RCTV licence for terrestrial transmition.

Who is responsible for the publishing of the tascon list?

 

[DC]

Kim Il Sung (the dead one) is revered as being THE supreme being. Even Kim Jong Il, who I might add is hugely popular as well has to play second fiddle to his dead father.

They have him embalmed and thousands flock to see him all the time.

One man blogs about it.

Also check out the book "Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader: North Korea and the Kim Dynasty" by Bradley K. Martin

They love the guy and they think his son is so wonderful too. Despite the fact that many are starving, they are fed HUGE levels of propaganda about how terrible everywhere that isn't N. Korea is, and how wonderful the Kim dynasty is that they lap it up readily when told that Kim Jong Il knows best.

As for Saddam, schoolchildren were made, although hardly unwillingly, to sing songs about how wonderful the great leader was (and to be fair, if you weren't one of the peoples he oppressed he WAS A great leader, if you like strong leaders who do manage to keep the economy ticking over.....sort of).

Hell, they even built mosques to worship him!

Saddam Hussein did not have TOTAL loyalty, it is true, and he used....lets say dishonest tactics to rig elections to make sure it looked like he had 98-99% of the population behind him, to give an air of democracy to his government, but he still would have steamrollered the opposition, even if he hadn't literally done that.

"Saddam has made himself the focus of loyalty. His images in costumed heroic poses are all over the country. The Iraqi media is focused on tributes for the Glorious Leader. His birthday is designated a national holiday. School children memorize poems and songs that worship Saddam. There is no such thing as too much when it comes to personality cults."
linky

"The orphanage was supported by the government and by wealthy donors, she said.

Abu Ali, whose job it is to escort members of the news media wherever they want to go during their stay in Baghdad, translated while the orphans sang songs of welcome to the visiting journalists.

"Our father Saddam Hussein shows us how to be a teacher," the children chanted in unison, with one little boy stepping out and shaking his fist emphatically to the last words of the verse.

"Our father Saddam Hussein shows us how to be a farmer," the children chanted, and another little boy stepped out from the group and shook his fist.

"Our father Saddam Hussein shows us how to be a soldier," the children chanted.

This time an older girl stepped out from the group and said, "And we will kill the American invaders." The children smiled and clapped their hands."
linky deux.

thans for the comments and links.

i have not much clue about North Korea, i only know what is printed in our mainstream press. And there he is presented as a Dictator that is leting his people starve and exploits them. What really is going on in North Korea, i dunno. But when Kim is indeed what those people want, well then so be it

Using Children for political means, to show how much they support you is wrong and not counting in my eyes. No mather if it is Saddam doing it, Chavez, Morales or Obama. Kids dont understand politics , grownups have enough troubles with it.

And sure rigged elections are a way to "prove" support from people.
But actually that is not the case in Venezuela.

BTW: Also Chavez has not FULL support. between 50 and 60 % and one of the negative points is, it seems to be a dictate by the majority in some ways.

 

[funk de fino]

I guess for Chavez it is the most important part atm. If the people see another part very important and want to change it, since the 1999 constitution from Dictator Chavez, they are able to use direct democratic tools to have a national vote about it. Not only Chavez can do that, Also the Opposition can do that.

Thats all you need to say right there.

His insight to give up the coup atempt is said to have saved alot lives. and paved the way to the Bolivarian Revolution like it is taking place now.

He was forced to give up and go on TV.

Did you know for what reasons the President that Chavez tryed to overthrow back then had to leave office a few years later?

Are you attempting to justify military coups?

just wanted to make it clear.

Shame the rest of your arguments were not so clear.

the Same is said about the CIA.

I do not defend the CIA.

that is not what i said.
a coup against a fair elected president, that still has the majority behind him can never be just.
Nor can i ever be pro a coup when innocent people get killed.

Coups are bad then?

I would like to be a Che fan, but i cant, because i am more a Ghandi fan.I like alot of Che's ideas, alot go to far for me, but the worst about him is, that he just shot his opponents.

Ghandi was indeed an inspiration to many.

But when people are surpressed and exploited and have no democratic rules that enables them to change that, what are they suposed to do?

Get the military to rise up against the govt and kill innocent people by the looks of it??

 

[funk de fino]

Morales his Nationalizng of the Oil industry worked alot better than Chavez his did afaik. Did Morales keep the old people ? and how did Chavez do it? was his only misstake to fire the old people?
How many was fired?

You could research it yourself you know? No, not only firing people.

Not his TV show you say? what are you talking of then?

Why would a president of a country want his own TV show like that anyway?

i dont belive RCTV was the only one involved in the Coup, also Globovision was, they are still on air. thats btw why i asked if there are other reasons to not renew the RCTV licence for terrestrial transmition.

Orchestrate DC, orchestrate.

Who is responsible for the publishing of the tascon list?

Govt jobs. Who is responsible for govt jobs?

Found out about the other list yet?

 

[funk de fino]

thans for the comments and links.

i have not much clue about North Korea, i only know what is printed in our mainstream press. And there he is presented as a Dictator that is leting his people starve and exploits them. What really is going on in North Korea, i dunno. But when Kim is indeed what those people want, well then so be it

Hee hee hee

Using Children for political means, to show how much they support you is wrong and not counting in my eyes. No mather if it is Saddam doing it, Chavez, Morales or Obama. Kids dont understand politics , grownups have enough troubles with it.

Some kids understand better than a lot of adults I know

And sure rigged elections are a way to "prove" support from people.But actually that is not the case in Venezuela.

So when people who have been publicy blacklisted for voting against Chavez are given the chance to vote again they will take the chance again or will they just vote for him anyway? Intimidation is a fair election is it?

BTW: Also Chavez has not FULL support. between 50 and 60 % and one of the negative points is, it seems to be a dictate by the majority in some ways.

Dictaotor Cheney, Saddam had higher support than Chavez. Now fancy that. I guess you will be able to prove saddam had unfair elections without using biased mainstream media?

 

[DC]

You could research it yourself you know? No, not only firing people.

You are an Oil expert you said, so isnt it a good idea to ask an expert?
i ask you.

Why would a president of a country want his own TV show like that anyway?

dodging?

About what was you talking ?

I think the Alo Presidente show is a good idea. its to long and to onesided. but the idea is good.

Orchestrate DC, orchestrate.

Was the reason to not renew the licence, because of Orchestrating?
who was Orchestrating the coup attempt according to you?

Govt jobs. Who is responsible for govt jobs?

why not just answer my question? Dodging?

Found out about the other list yet?

its your claim, can you give me details?

 

[DC]

Thats all you need to say right there.

my whole senteces or only the bolded part?

He was forced to give up and go on TV.

afaik was he not forced to go on TV. it was his decision to prevent furter deaths.

Are you attempting to justify military coups?

it works this way, you know, you answer my question first, then i answer yours, deal?

Shame the rest of your arguments were not so clear.

I do not defend the CIA.

i will remember that

Coups are bad then?

yes a coup is bad. But sometimes it seems the only way for opressed people to resist.

Ghandi was indeed an inspiration to many.

but not for enough

Get the military to rise up against the govt and kill innocent people by the looks of it??

it works this way, you know, you answer my question first, then i answer yours, deal?

 

[funk de fino]

You are an Oil expert you said, so isnt it a good idea to ask an expert?
i ask you.

research it yourself. i do not have time to cover it all and you would just handwave it and make a nonsensical post about something i did not say anyway

dodging?

Dodging what? You brought his TV show into this, i did not mention it. i am not interested in it.

About what was you talking ?

you were.

I think the Alo Presidente show is a good idea. its to long and to onesided. but the idea is good.

yes, very egomanical eh?

Was the reason to not renew the licence, because of Orchestrating? who was Orchestrating the coup attempt according to you?

Who was orchestrating it according to Chavez, that is what we are talking about.

why not just answer my question? Dodging?

Tascon was given responsibility by the Govt to collect and verify these lists. Chavez knew they were being used. The govt used them to deny people govt jobs and to sack people from govt jobs. Chavez is the president at the head of the govt last time i looked.

its your claim, can you give me details?

Seen as you continue to bleat about this i thought i would throw you a crumb of comfort. Here is a link aout the tascon lists and another list. Now you may say this is biased. i do not care. it is not where i got my info from but it backs up what I have said. Even about the loans. have a read, mull it over and do not post until you have thought about the ramifications ofthe second list.

http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/2006/02/la-lista-story-of-venezuela.html

Ciao

 

[DC]

Hee hee hee

Atleast i am aware of it, and admit it to my self and others.

I am not like you, that know all the details of everyone all the sides of all the storys

Some kids understand better than a lot of adults I know

So when people who have been publicy blacklisted for voting against Chavez are given the chance to vote again they will take the chance again or will they just vote for him anyway? Intimidation is a fair election is it?

I would vote anyway. But cannot speak about others.

Using faked Signatures in referndums against our political opponent is a fair election is it?

Dictaotor Cheney, Saddam had higher support than Chavez. Now fancy that. I guess you will be able to prove saddam had unfair elections without using biased mainstream media?

Who was overseeing the Iraqi saddam elections?
Who is overseeing the Venezuelan elections?

 

[funk de fino]

my whole senteces or only the bolded part?

Bolded is all you need.

afaik was he not forced to go on TV. it was his decision to prevent furter deaths.

Now who believes propoganda. he was forced to do it.

it works this way, you know, you answer my question first, then i answer yours, deal?

Hypocrite.

i will remember that

about time you remebered something

yes a coup is bad. But sometimes it seems the only way for opressed people to resist.

OK, good when you decide they are and it depends who who does them. If there was a coup tomorrow in Venezuela supported by the people it would be OK or not?

but not for enough

Not Chavez obviously

it works this way, you know, you answer my question first, then i answer yours, deal?

hypocrite, I am not a believer in armed struggle by people, i lived through years of irish troubles and have been affected personally by them. Think Ghandi

 

[funk de fino]

Atleast i am aware of it, and admit it to my self and others.

I am not like you, that know all the details of everyone all the sides of all the storys

More lies

I would vote anyway. But cannot speak about others.

My friends are cowards then are they?

Using faked Signatures in referndums against our political opponent is a fair election is it?

Election? Come on man try harder.

Who was overseeing the Iraqi saddam elections?
Who is overseeing the Venezuelan elections?

Proof saddams elections were rigged from non western media sources?

 

[DC]

research it yourself. i do not have time to cover it all and you would just handwave it and make a nonsensical post about something i did not say anyway

jaja, its ok

Dodging what? You brought his TV show into this, i did not mention it. i am not interested in it.

you said he spends to much time ranting about the USA. Where is he doing that? and how much time is he spending on it? i asked.

you were.

no you said he wastes to much time ranting about the USA.

yes, very egomanical eh?

no. very onesided Socialistic.

Who was orchestrating it according to Chavez, that is what we are talking about.

according to Chavez, the CIA.

Tascon was given responsibility by the Govt to collect and verify these lists. Chavez knew they were being used. The govt used them to deny people govt jobs and to sack people from govt jobs. Chavez is the president at the head of the govt last time i looked.

hwo do you know that Chavez knew that they where used in the way you say?

Seen as you continue to bleat about this i thought i would throw you a crumb of comfort. Here is a link aout the tascon lists and another list. Now you may say this is biased. i do not care. it is not where i got my info from but it backs up what I have said. Even about the loans. have a read, mull it over and do not post until you have thought about the ramifications ofthe second list.



http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/2006/02/la-lista-story-of-venezuela.html

Ciao

thanks ,was an interesting read.

in that blog in only one sentence its claimed that more such lists may exist, but no details about it, alot interesting details about the Tascon List, but nothing about the other list.

also the now used public list of all voters is worth a debate i guess. On one side its good on the other side such a list can be abused.

Does anyone know if there is an english version of the Documentation La Lista?

 

[DC]

More lies

My friends are cowards then are they?

i dont know, its your friend, is he?
would he alow a Dictator opress him and his people bacuase he is scared to loose his job or not geting a credit?

Election? Come on man try harder.

oh dear, thinking seem not to be one of your strong abilitys.
what could i have ment?

Proof saddams elections were rigged from non western media sources?

OSCE for example?