Send in the tanks! (Chavez)

[OlbarStein]

I guess we have to wait until the people of Venezuela want a different leader. Only then we can be really sure if he is a democratic socialist or just a dictator.

Mugabe of Zimbabwe is a prime example of how a revolutionary hero slowly turned into a dictator.

 

[DC]

I guess we have to wait until the people of Venezuela want a different leader. Only then we can be really sure if he is a democratic socialist or just a dictator.

Mugabe of Zimbabwe is a prime example of how a revolutionary hero slowly turned into a dictator.

ah on that i can agree.

 

[Matteo Martini]

Some basic indicators (venezuelan statistics):

[TABLE="head"]|ca 1998|ca 2007
Percentage of Persons in Extreme Poverty|20,6|9,4
Population with access to sewage services (%)|64|82
Population with access to drinking water (%)|80|92
Infant Mortality Rate (per thousand live births)|21,4|13,9
Beneficiary population of the school food program (million)|0,2|1,8
Gross school enrollment rate in basic education (%)|90|99
Gross school enrollment rate in secondary and professional education (%)|27|41
Gross enrollment rate in higher education (%)|21|30
Number of Pension Recipients (million)|0,4|1,1
Number of free medical operations conducted (thousand)|-|40
National Human Development Index|0,69|0,88[/TABLE]

Makes the point.

 

[DC]

Funk de Fino

i still wait for your details on the law or examples of condemnation in Venezuela.

ETA: Funk, where did you find the law in english? cant find it in english, got it in Spanish and German, but no english.

 

[funk de fino]

yes

Interesting, you think the govt should control all credit?

yeah i know, expert on FDR's and Oil industry.
Lower Oild production, means they will still have more oil when others run out of it? so in some decades they can sell what they do not produce now and sell it for a much higher price.
just selling all of it now is not smart.

Yes, I am actually. What is it you do again? From your postings you really do not understand anything about oil. There are reasons he is ruining it and it is slowing down, to get anywhere near what he did before he would need to change all the mistakes he has made. He has more oil that he can ever dream of at the moment and the country could be making more of it than he is.

There is one thing you never do in the oil industry and that is annoy american companies because they are needed to drill for oil. My company is working there right now. He is a hypocrite.

politics on international level is very often a waste of time and energy.
Its not like the majority of our politicans do anything better in that regard

Very poor answer. Do you agree he is right to waste so much time on petty namecalling and childish games?

Do you know about the other reason why the licence was not renewed?

Nice non answer again DC. Stop dodging. Please repeat what I said and not what you think I said.

so you are venezuelan?

From one poor attempted argument to a non sensical post. Please try harder.

I'm a european same as you. I dont care about Obamas pals.

 

[funk de fino]

a few posts ago you was very uppset that Chavez will ask the people about removing the term limit.........

I was very upset? I guess you will be able to show that i was upset. If not you are a liar.

Your poor arguments about me supporting the opposition have made you look foolish and you attempted misquotes and strawmen are becoming lame.

Why did he break his word? Why is he not aksing the people what parts of the constitution reforms they did not like and giving them the option to vote on them all seperately?

Why is he only concerned about terms? he siad he would listen to the will of the people and when they voted against his constitution changes he said he would serve his term and standown. Now he has changed his tune. Now, he may win he may not but he is still a liar.

but indeed in Venezuela it seems people doing coups are not punished hard. one is presidente and the other one is a main political figure in the opposition. in both coups innocent people died.

Chavez was involved in both. He is a criminal.

 

[funk de fino]

aslong you dont bring up some details about the law or some examples, it is a clear sign that you know nada about that law and you just parrot something that you heard and you think is not OK.

you know the law, I know the law, i do not dance to your tune

bring up some examples where poor people got taken away theyr house and it was given to even more poor people.

Yet another misquote, I have never said he took away land from poor people and gave it to even more poor people. You are lying again.

I dont know of any such cases.
I know about other cases like the one example i brought up, which i find OK.
present some cases that you think are unfair handled.

So you think it is OK for the Chavez to take away land that someone has worked hard for all their lives and give to to poor people?

when you indeed did read about it, you should not have troubles with it.

if I said I read about it you would say I was using biased media. I get my info from people in the country.

Just because you got told stories from anti Chavistas from Venezuela does not mean they are true or Objective or accurate. I guess as Antichavistas they are pretty biased

They are anti chavez because of what has happened to them, not just for fun. They would never vote against him again in case they are blacklisted again. This is not democracy.

They certainly know more about it than you though.

 

[Matteo Martini]

[..]Chavez was involved in both. He is a criminal.

Putin, Bush father and son, Berlusconi and so many other respected head-of-state are also criminals..

 

[funk de fino]

Funk de Fino

i still wait for your details on the law or examples of condemnation in Venezuela.

ETA: Funk, where did you find the law in english? cant find it in english, got it in Spanish and German, but no english.

I know you are choimping at the bit DC but I was busy, you can wait no? seems you are littel bit obsessed about it eh?

You can go find the law, you can go find examples. I do not care. I have been told by people about the discrimination and it has been brought to the courts.

Do I have links to why someone was refused credit after the recall after signing the petition. No. Did it happen, yes. You cant always find everything online you know and even if I did you woul say it was biased.

You also argue that people here say that all he does is wrong. This is a lie.

He has made inmprovements in a lot of cases but his actions and some of his deeds are wrong. I criticize the UK govts and the US admin when they are wrong. I will criticize Chavez when he is wrong. You blindly accept him as a hero who can do now wrong and ignore his foibles. You are like those raving republicans you see around the messageboards who will see no wrong in Bush or anything he has ever done. His foibles are bad indicators of what may lay ahead. I am scared for my friends I have no personal grudge against Chavez and do not do this because of my politics or because it affects me. I am probably far more left wing than you imagine.

 

[funk de fino]

Putin, Bush father and son, Berlusconi and so many other respected head-of-state are also criminals..

1. I do not care cause I do not support them.
2. They have been found guilty in court and imprisoned for their actions right?

JAQ

 

[DC]

Interesting, you think the govt should control all credit?

in case you was not able to understadn my first answer, yes. i thought that is the english word for Ja.

Yes, I am actually. What is it you do again? From your postings you really do not understand anything about oil. There are reasons he is ruining it and it is slowing down, to get anywhere near what he did before he would need to change all the mistakes he has made. He has more oil that he can ever dream of at the moment and the country could be making more of it than he is.

I am in steel bussines mainly, but also gravel/cement and recycling.
what was his mistakes?

There is one thing you never do in the oil industry and that is annoy american companies because they are needed to drill for oil. My company is working there right now. He is a hypocrite.

LOL
oh you sound like a real oil expert....
also never anoy Saudi Arabia with human rights and such stuff.....

Very poor answer. Do you agree he is right to waste so much time on petty namecalling and childish games?

how much time is he wasting? for example how many hours of his TV showe Alo Presidente is he spending on the USA and how many hours on National issues ?

Nice non answer again DC. Stop dodging. Please repeat what I said and not what you think I said.

You said Orchestrated. happy now? was this the reason why the licence was not renewed for terestrial transmition?

From one poor attempted argument to a non sensical post. Please try harder.

I'm a european same as you. I dont care about Obamas pals.

So you care about Chavez and his friends, but when asked about another country you point out that you are not from that other country, why didnt you point out that you are not Venezuelan? Hypocrit?

 

[DC]

I was very upset? I guess you will be able to show that i was upset. If not you are a liar.

Your poor arguments about me supporting the opposition have made you look foolish and you attempted misquotes and strawmen are becoming lame.

Why did he break his word? Why is he not aksing the people what parts of the constitution reforms they did not like and giving them the option to vote on them all seperately?

Why is he only concerned about terms? he siad he would listen to the will of the people and when they voted against his constitution changes he said he would serve his term and standown. Now he has changed his tune. Now, he may win he may not but he is still a liar.



Chavez was involved in both. He is a criminal.

read your posts, i got the impression from you, you think he should just accept the referendum he lost and not ask more about it.
now you say he should ask the people what they dont like about the referendum to reform the 99 constitution.

and about the coups.

he was involved in a coup in 92 which failed and it was him that appeared on TV and asked his followers to stop the coup, they lost it.

This made him a National heroe. After a few years in jail he got amnestied.

and after that he used Democracy to get into power and then changed the constitution and made it alot more democratic and just than it was before.

in the second coup in the 90s, he was not involved, he was in jail at that time.

and in 2002 he was actually the victim of a coup. And it was the Venezuelan people that put back in place the person they elected as presidente.
meanwhile Washington published that they are happy with the change of goverment in Venezuela, Washington seems not to care about democracy at all. Hypocrits...... Since then the support the so called "pro democratic groups", total laughable....

Sometimes when the people want it, a coup is needed, to get the will of the people, i think his coup attempt in the 90s was such a case.
Sure i always condemn violence. Also from Chavistas.

 

[DC]

you know the law, I know the law, i do not dance to your tune

I just would like to see you backup your claim. but you are not able to.
while you claim to have read the law.
i didnt understand the spanish version, and the German translation must be totaly wrong, becuase it is in no way what you described, thats why i asked for the english version, would you please link me to it?i googled it, but i am not even sure what the correct english word for "Enteignung" is. So i would really apriciate when you could show me that law in an english translation.

what is your trouble with that?

Yet another misquote, I have never said he took away land from poor people and gave it to even more poor people. You are lying again.

make it clear. show that law or show some examples. what is your problem, just bacjup your claims. something you keep demanding in the 911 CT section.
i demand it here.

So you think it is OK for the Chavez to take away land that someone has worked hard for all their lives and give to to poor people?

the way it is regulated in the Constitution, yes i think that is ok.

if I said I read about it you would say I was using biased media. I get my info from people in the country.

what is the diffrent between geting the info from biased western media or from biased antichavistas in venezuela? its not like the opposition is taking much care of the truth

They are anti chavez because of what has happened to them, not just for fun. They would never vote against him again in case they are blacklisted again. This is not democracy.

They certainly know more about it than you though.

brb will answer later

 

[DC]

I know you are choimping at the bit DC but I was busy, you can wait no? seems you are littel bit obsessed about it eh?

You can go find the law, you can go find examples. I do not care. I have been told by people about the discrimination and it has been brought to the courts.

Do I have links to why someone was refused credit after the recall after signing the petition. No. Did it happen, yes. You cant always find everything online you know and even if I did you woul say it was biased.

You also argue that people here say that all he does is wrong. This is a lie.

He has made inmprovements in a lot of cases but his actions and some of his deeds are wrong. I criticize the UK govts and the US admin when they are wrong. I will criticize Chavez when he is wrong. You blindly accept him as a hero who can do now wrong and ignore his foibles. You are like those raving republicans you see around the messageboards who will see no wrong in Bush or anything he has ever done. His foibles are bad indicators of what may lay ahead. I am scared for my friends I have no personal grudge against Chavez and do not do this because of my politics or because it affects me. I am probably far more left wing than you imagine.

i searched for examples, and i cannot find what you described.

i found cases like the one where unused land was taken and used to build houses or schools on it etc. Which is also in the Constitution.

I dont see him as a Hero. I see him as a politican that does not represent big corporations, i see him as a politican that is representing those people that was not represented for decades. Those people that voted for him. and that is the majority.

I find it just not acceptable that he is called Dictator by the established press. I am shocked that storys are misstranslated/out of context by CNN and others, like the story about bringing out the tanks.

I am wondering why it is accepted without any evidence that the Tascon list was Chavez idea. The List is called Tascon list, not Chavez List. Nor did i see any evidence that he indeed ordered that list to be used. the contrary.

Tascon published this list on his homepage. and also had a reason why he saw it justifyed, i dont agree with him on it.

But be honest. When it is about CIA activities you would demand evidence into every detail. but when it is about Chavez, no evidence is needed. a few press reports is enough to establish facts.

Its like everythnig the opposition says is accepted as a fact by our media and everything Chavistas say is a lie.


Critizising Chavez is ok, or also refusing his Bolivarian revolution is OK. I mean this is a very special revolution, and i am suprised how many support it in latin America that are actually not poor but more middleclass. Social thinking seems to be very strong in south america. I like that, but alot do not like that.
But paroting anti Chavez propaganda is not critique, its propaganda.
But somehow i can understand it, becuase it is our media that is reporting in a extreme anti Chavez style and most people have not the time to read into more details the storys about Chavez.

 

[DC]

1. I do not care cause I do not support them.
2. They have been found guilty in court and imprisoned for their actions right?

JAQ

1. Why do you care About Chavez and the Opposition? i thought you support none of them.....

2.Chavez was imprissoned but was amnestied after 2 years in Prison by President Caldera.

 

[funk de fino]

in case you was not able to understadn my first answer, yes. i thought that is the english word for Ja.

Strange concept, I just wanted to be sure.

I am in steel bussines mainly, but also gravel/cement and recycling.what was his mistakes?

For starters he sacked most of thre real experts in the industry and brought in peiople who did not have a clue what they were doing.

LOL
oh you sound like a real oil expert....
also never anoy Saudi Arabia with human rights and such stuff.....

I am actually. It my job to be an expert. Do you think you know more than me?

Saudi rely on the same american companies actually, so do the russians.

how much time is he wasting? for example how many hours of his TV showe Alo Presidente is he spending on the USA and how many hours on National issues ?

I am not talking about his TV show.

You said Orchestrated. happy now? was this the reason why the licence was not renewed for terestrial transmition?

So prove they orchestrated the coup.

So you care about Chavez and his friends, but when asked about another country you point out that you are not from that other country, why didnt you point out that you are not Venezuelan? Hypocrit?

I never said I cared about Chavez and any of his friends. I care out my friends. None of my friends in the US have been persecuted. Obama had nothing to do with this thread. Stop making arguments up.

 

[funk de fino]

I just would like to see you backup your claim. but you are not able to.
while you claim to have read the law.
i didnt understand the spanish version, and the German translation must be totaly wrong, becuase it is in no way what you described, thats why i asked for the english version, would you please link me to it?i googled it, but i am not even sure what the correct english word for "Enteignung" is. So i would really apriciate when you could show me that law in an english translation.

what is your trouble with that?

make it clear. show that law or show some examples. what is your problem, just bacjup your claims. something you keep demanding in the 911 CT section.
i demand it here.

I asked you a question, I made no claims. Go and look at the thread again. Find the law yourself, it is easy. I am not your secretary. You can make no demands

the way it is regulated in the Constitution, yes i think that is ok.

fine, that is all you had to say.

what is the diffrent between geting the info from biased western media or from biased antichavistas in venezuela? its not like the opposition is taking much care of the truth

You tell me. What is the difference betwee getting it from pro chavez media or pro chavez venezuelans? I get my info from people who have been persecuted by Chavez. I cannot copy and paste their stories here.

brb will answer later

Whatever

 

[DC]

Strange concept, I just wanted to be sure.

for me the people are the Government. Maybe that way it looks not that strange. But i can understnad that alot dislike that idea.

For starters he sacked most of thre real experts in the industry and brought in peiople who did not have a clue what they were doing.

Maybe that was needed to get quit the old oligarchy and corruption?
I think the new ones will son learn how its best working for Venezuela.

I am actually. It my job to be an expert. Do you think you know more than me?

Saudi rely on the same american companies actually, so do the russians.

Venezuela and others that Nationalized the oil industry are still working together with those companys, just under new conditions, conditionas that the majority of those countrys see as more just to them.

i have no problems with that.

I am not talking about his TV show.

eerm about what are talking then? i am not suprised he talks about international politics on International events etc.

So prove they orchestrated the coup.

while i dont belive they Orchestrated it, i might try to prove their involvment, after you proofed your claims, deal?

I never said I cared about Chavez and any of his friends. I care out my friends. None of my friends in the US have been persecuted. Obama had nothing to do with this thread. Stop making arguments up.

care to prove that the Tascon list was ordered by Chavez or his government?
and used in agreement of the Government to deny credits and jobs.

 

[funk de fino]

read your posts, i got the impression from you, you think he should just accept the referendum he lost and not ask more about it.

I was not very upset, you need to stop making things up.

now you say he should ask the people what they dont like about the referendum to reform the 99 constitution.

Once again your logic fails you. I am making the distinction between only putting one part of the reform back the people and putting it all back. Why only that one part, why not all the parts seperately?

and about the coups.

he was involved in a coup in 92 which failed and it was him that appeared on TV and asked his followers to stop the coup, they lost it.

This made him a National heroe. After a few years in jail he got amnestied.

It made him a criminal who caused the deaths of citizens.

and after that he used Democracy to get into power and then changed the constitution and made it alot more democratic and just than it was before.

in the second coup in the 90s, he was not involved, he was in jail at that time.

I never said he was.

and in 2002 he was actually the victim of a coup. And it was the Venezuelan people that put back in place the person they elected as presidente.meanwhile Washington published that they are happy with the change of goverment in Venezuela, Washington seems not to care about democracy at all. Hypocrits...... Since then the support the so called "pro democratic groups", total laughable....

He was involved in this coup.

Sometimes when the people want it, a coup is needed, to get the will of the people, i think his coup attempt in the 90s was such a case.
Sure i always condemn violence. Also from Chavistas.

Ah, so a coup is only a fair coup if you support it. Gotcha.

 

[DC]

I asked you a question, I made no claims. Go and look at the thread again. Find the law yourself, it is easy. I am not your secretary. You can make no demands

9/11 was an inside job, go find the evidence, its easy to find........

i searched for a english translation of the law. i told you several times now, i did not find it. you told me you have read it. so tell me where pls, or when possible, post a link.

I cant find a official english translation of the Venezuelan Constitution, the inofficial website is not working, always showing the index, nothing more.
i have a german translation, but this is not saying what you described.
so i ask you again, i do not demand it, i ask you friendly, could you pls tell me where i can find an elgish translation.

fine, that is all you had to say.

well the constitutions wording i know are not saying what you described.
how come?

You tell me. What is the difference betwee getting it from pro chavez media or pro chavez venezuelans? I get my info from people who have been persecuted by Chavez. I cannot copy and paste their stories here.



Whatever

no worry, i dont belive everything the Chavistas say. Nor do i belive everything that the antichavistas say.

I listen to both sides and try to come to a conclusion. I think the trueth lies between the 2 political camps.

I think it is wrong to persecuted the venezuelan minority of anti chavistas.
they also have rights. and i hope there will be a cooperation between the Chavistas and the antichavistas in near future.

But i also dont think that the Chavistas are out to persecute those against them, they should have learned how that is in all the years they was the persecuted.