The powerlessness of prayer

[six7s]

It’s very simple: If a person keeps on blaspheming, his prayer will not be answered.
Surely you understand this!!!!
The question is do you want to understand, or do you prefer ignorance?

OK... unless you are terminally stupid, this ought to resonate:

It’s very simple: there is absolutely no evidence that any prayer has ever been answered.
Surely you understand this!!!!
The question is do you want to understand, or do you prefer ignorance?

 

[RandFan]

It’s very simple: If a person keeps on blaspheming, his prayer will not be answered.
Surely you understand this!!!!
The question is do you want to understand, or do you prefer ignorance?

It's very simple:

• People who pray have the same morbidity rates as those who don't.
• People who pray win the lottery at the same rate as those who don't.
• People who pray have the same rates of sickness and disease as those who don't.
• People who pray find their wallets and lost keys just as much as those who don't.

Nothing fails like prayer whether or not you blaspheme (AKA telling the truth).

 

[Ali]

If you pray to a jug of milk you’ll get nowhere.
If you pray for indecent desires you won’t get anywhere.
If you’re a child abuser you’re prayer won’t be answered.
If ...........................

 

[RandFan]

If you pray to a jug of milk you’ll get nowhere.
If you pray for indecent desires you won’t get anywhere.
If you’re a child abuser you’re prayer won’t be answered.
If ...........................

If you are a believer and you to pray to god you will get as far as you will praying to a jug of milk and that is demonstrable.

 

[psy kick]

I had a former friend tell me god was unable to answer my prayers unless I stated out loud he would, as if my words have so much power over god! I hadn't realized I was that powerful. And she wasn't the only one to tell me what i speak happens.
Sadly, when I claim lots of money, it never works. hmmm

 

[Ali]

If you are a believer and you to pray to god you will get as far as you will praying to a jug of milk and that is demonstrable.

Sorry to disappoint you RadFan: check out my claim

 

[RandFan]

Sorry to disappoint you RadFan: check out my claim

???

In any event, if you are a believer and you to pray to god you will get as far as you will praying to a jug of milk and that is demonstrable.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

The argument is no different from Santa Claus:

How does Santa manage to send a gift to every human child in the world in just one night?
Santa's got Magic reindeers and he can fly really fast
Ok but how do those millions of toys fit inside a bag?
Santa's Bag is magic. You can fit an infinite number of toys
So how come we can't see him hovering in the sky?
Santa is magic so he can become invisible
I don't have a chimney in my apartment. How is Santa going to get inside?
Santa is Magic. He can shrink himself and crawl under your door
But wait, so if Santa shrinks, won't the bag become too big for him to handle?
Don't be silly. Santa is magic: He will shrink the bag too and then come back to normal size


See, the good thing about arguments based on Magic is that you can't loose. No matter how insane your argument is, it's ok because it's not supposed to make sense. It's magic. That's how we fill the gaps. We simply say "Well, that's because it's magic" and we wipe the dust from our hands. Why does God answer some of my prayers and not others? "Well, God acts in misterious ways. He's also magic, and magic is misterious, so...."

Sorry. Not convinced.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Sorry to disappoint you RadFan: check out my claim

This rock I'm holding in my hands right now has the power to keep away tigers. Don't believe me? Well do you see any tigers around me?

That's right....I just went Simpsons upside your head.

 

[six7s]

This rock I'm holding in my hands right now has the power to keep away tigers. Don't believe me? Well do you see any tigers around me?

That's right....I just went Simpsons upside your head.

Pah! Any fule kno that tiggers iz 4 pussies

I am immortal! Don't believe me? Well until you have evidence that I'm dead, then I win!

 

[Nick227]

???

In any event, if you are a believer and you to pray to god you will get as far as you will praying to a jug of milk and that is demonstrable.

Well, if we were to take it that consciousness is analogous to computation, then we might say that any significant number of people engaging in coherent activity together might accrue to themselves something extra not present in solely personal activity, a la Ned Block (Chinese Brain). Given that large numbers of people pray to God regularly, and not to milk jugs, this could mean something. Just what I'm not quite sure! But it seems to me that mass activity of any kind has the potential to create something not present in personal activity.

Nick

 

[six7s]

... it seems to me that mass activity of any kind has the potential to create something not present in personal activity.

Yep

e.g

• mass hysteria

• mass debates

See also: Groupthink

 

[Nick227]

Yep

e.g

• mass hysteria

• mass debates

See also: Groupthink

Yes, it can do these things. If one is taking a materialist view of consciousness then one has to really also say that any large scale coherent behaviour which mimicks neuronal activity must create at least some of the attributes of conscious states. Thus, if say 500 million people are simultaneously praying to God, it's reasonable to say that there will be some change created that would not be present if it was just one. I mean, I don't know just what it would look like but it could be a means to consider that prayer does potentially have a validity, along of course with myriad other coherent simultaneous behaviours.

Nick

 

[six7s]

Thus, if say 500 million people are simultaneously praying to God, it's reasonable to say that there will be some change created that would not be present if it was just one.

If you want others to infer that this change would be more significant than when 500 million people are simultaneously sleeping or 500 million people are simultaneously eating or 500 million people are simultaneously farting or 500 million people are simultaneously watching the Simpsons, then I suggest you add a bit more detail to flesh out your rather hazy, vague notion

 

[Nick227]

If you want others to infer that this change would be more significant than when 500 million people are simultaneously sleeping or 500 million people are simultaneously eating or 500 million people are simultaneously farting or 500 million people are simultaneously watching the Simpsons, then I suggest you add a bit more detail to flesh out your rather hazy, vague notion

For sure I would have to do that if I was trying to make such a statement. I was more replying to the issue of the milk jug!

Nick

 

[RandFan]

Given that large numbers of people pray to God regularly, and not to milk jugs, this could mean something. Just what I'm not quite sure! But it seems to me that mass activity of any kind has the potential to create something not present in personal activity.

It could be that ants create consciousness that they don't each experience.

As for prayer it is demonstrably ineffective and AFAIK there is no emergent property or phenomenon that we have to date been able to measure.

Speculation is fine but I've no reason to think there is anything more to this than to leprechauns. Lot's of people claim to have seen them.

Get back to me when you come up with the data. Until then I will remain skeptical.

 

[six7s]

For sure I would have to do that if I was trying to make such a statement. I was more replying to the issue of the milk jug!

Really?

Then where, pray tell (), is the reference to a milk jug in the post in question?

Yes, it can do these things. If one is taking a materialist view of consciousness then one has to really also say that any large scale coherent behaviour which mimicks neuronal activity must create at least some of the attributes of conscious states. Thus, if say 500 million people are simultaneously praying to God, it's reasonable to say that there will be some change created that would not be present if it was just one. I mean, I don't know just what it would look like but it could be a means to consider that prayer does potentially have a validity, along of course with myriad other coherent simultaneous behaviours.

Nick

 

[Nick227]

It could be that ants create consciousness that they don't each experience.

As for prayer it is demonstrably ineffective and AFAIK there is no emergent property or phenomenon that we have to date been able to measure.

Speculation is fine but I've no reason to think there is anything more to this than to leprechauns. Lot's of people claim to have seen them.

Get back to me when you come up with the data. Until then I will remain skeptical.

Fair enough. I'm just interested. It seems to me more an issue of numbers and organisation than of just not being possible. If you could get enough people to simultaneously perform a coherent activity, ideally one which some clever soul has designed with regard to computation, then I don't see why prayer couldn't have an effect, in theory.

I take it from your position that you regard prayer as a bad thing?

Nick

 

[six7s]

If you could get enough people to simultaneously perform a coherent activity

Like the Global Orgasm for Peace?

Anti-war couple conceive new way to generate peace
Sunday, November 19, 2006

Living on their houseboat off the Marin County coast, anti-war activists Donna Sheehan and her partner, Paul Reffel, concocted a way for the world to communally create a lot of peaceful vibes.

They want everyone to have an orgasm on the same day.

On Dec. 22, they're asking the world to contribute to the Global Orgasm for Peace. Sheehan said not to worry if you don't have a partner.

Busy multitaskers shouldn't despair about trying to cram this global activism into their busy schedules, either, she said. Take any time during the 24-hour period at the beginning of the winter solstice to join the demonstration. Just make sure to think of peace before or after participating.

Once you've committed, there's even a secret sign to show others that you plan to take part: Flash the universal "OK" sign and wink. Or, as it has been redubbed, "The O" sign. <snip/>

 

[RandFan]

Fair enough. I'm just interested. It seems to me more an issue of numbers and organisation than of just not being possible. If you could get enough people to simultaneously perform a coherent activity, ideally one which some clever soul has designed with regard to computation, then I don't see why prayer couldn't have an effect, in theory.

This is backward thinking. First you need to identify the effect. It's kinda like saying I don't see why there couldn't be leprechauns. Ok, perhaps there is no reason but first lets establish whether there are leprechauns. There's nothing wrong with asking questions but until you find that leprechaun it's not an interesting question for many of us. Get back to us when you've got the data.

I take it from your position that you regard prayer as a bad thing?

I think it can be a very good thing. Prayer is, demonstrably, a great placebo. It can be very effective at lowering the heart rate, blood pressure and breathing. It can calm and focus a person.

So can a sugar pill. If you feel good believing a box of sugar pills in the cupboard is helpful that's fine. I'm interested in what's true. Playing pretend to make myself feel better is, IMO, silly.