Send in the tanks! (Chavez)

Another Docu about him and how much the Venezuelan people hate that Dictator and how they put him back in office. eeehmmmm, how he forced the venezuelan people to go to street and protest against those that wanted to replace that Dictator .... eeehm..

Dictator Chavez his ratings arent that bad as the ratings of the elected US President Bush.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144&hl=de
 
Dictator Cheney said:
Another Docu about him and how much the Venezuelan people hate that Dictator and how they put him back in office. eeehmmmm, how he forced the venezuelan people to go to street and protest against those that wanted to replace that Dictator .... eeehm..

Dictator Chavez his ratings arent that bad as the ratings of the elected US President Bush.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144&hl=de
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I don't think you could have watched it and come up with that opinion of it. I was only able to see the first two segments and "How the Venezuelan people hate that Dictator" was not in evidence yet. In fact the first two segments seemed to be suggesting that he is both admired and marginalized in Venezuelan society.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
Childlike Empress

it is not worth the effort.

the Media calls Chavez a dictator and parrots like dudalb and co will repeat that lie and belive it to be true.

Chavez is a Socislist. in the USA they know Socialism is so Evil™ and no free human beeing, no mather how much Social thinking or how poor one is, no one would vote for a socialist. So he is a Dictator.

Once again, nobody is interested when the CIA supports a coup against a elected goverment.

the same people that call Chavez an evil Dictator are proly the same that was so happy with the US support for a Military Dictator in Pakistan.....

it is amusing to read the comments here, could be directly from FOX news.
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Yes, it is amusing. This is a forum supposed to be populated by critical thinkers, after all. I'm certainly not going to put much effort into "discussing" with people like dudalb or beerina. Reading their posts, one can almost feel how full of hate and fear they are. But others are reachable and correcting a misunderstanding or two by providing links and information is not a big effort.

For example, certain people will possibly rethink if even harsh criticism of US politics by a south american leader has anything to do with creating a "boogeyman" after watching John Pilger's 2007 documentary The War on Democracy (first 38 min are about Venezuela, the rest is about the broader picture of the relationship between the US and their "backyard"):

Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
 
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Childlike Empress said:
But others are reachable and correcting a misunderstanding or two by providing links and information is not a big effort.
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That's a two way street Empress. Did you watch the video?

I'm happy to critisize the US for it's mistakes. However it would be dishonest to deny that Chavez doesn't play to people's fears and use the US as a boogeyman. The rhetoric is goes beyond the pale and serves no purpose to bash the US constantly.

If you are a skeptic and critical thinker then you should be willing to acknowledge that leaders who wish to ensure they stay in power when their people do not see improvements in their lives is to find a scapegoat to direct the people's anger on.

I'll watch your video.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
Another Docu about him and how much the Venezuelan people hate that Dictator and how they put him back in office. eeehmmmm, how he forced the venezuelan people to go to street and protest against those that wanted to replace that Dictator .... eeehm.
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Answer me two questions.
  • Did the people pass his reforms?
  • Did the opposition gain ground in the last election?
 
Dictator Cheney said:
it is amusing to read the comments here, could be directly from FOX news.
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  • Is there anything that is untrue in the video? Are there any Michael Moore type edits?
  • Is it not true that Chavez has attacked his own supporters and isn't it true that those who are close to Chavez don't have the freedom to speak without criticism and accusations of disloyalty from Chavez?
  • Is it true that many of Chavez close advisers have separated from him?
I'm not anti-socialist so that bit of ad hom isn't going to work DC. I praise socialist countries. I've noted that a number of them are better than the US. I have no problem with that so why don't you make substantive arguments and ditch the rhetoric?
 
RandFan said:
That's a two way street Empress. Did you watch the video?
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The PBS documentary? I've visited their site and read the description when Oliver posted the link at the beginning of this thread. It were bits like

PBS said:
Yet it was Chávez's keen grasp of the power of the media that propelled him to power, observers say.
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and
PBS said:
With frustration building and food shortages common, Venezuela's crime rate has soared, with murders, robberies and kidnappings for ransom occurring frequently
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that convinced me that i won't learn much from watching it. But now that it aired and good quality torrents are available, i started the download and will watch it.

RandFan said:
I'll watch your video.
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Deal. :)
 
Childlike Empress said:
Deal.
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About 11:30 into the video: (Paraphrased. I urge you to look at it again and tell me where I'm wrong.)

Pilger: Why after your reforms is there still so much poverty?
Chavez: It's not our goal to become rich but to live with dignity. Yes, we want to get out of poverty but material wealth is not our goal.

He didn't answer the question. He does take the opportunity to attack America decadence. Why? What does attacking America accomplish? Why is that such an important message?

FTR: I'm willing to admit that there has been some change for good for Argentina under Chavez. But then, there was some change for good under Peron. I think you should be careful that a move for good is proof that a leader is a good man. There are plenty of historical examples of how this is not true.
 
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The same reason he has brushed off the crime problem and would rather have flying blimps (if that works, I'll be the first to say "wow, ooooook") over the city than actually do something contructive. I bet alot of the criminals being watched are not the ones killing people. He wants to keep his voter base no matter how it's done.
 
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About 16:30 into the video. A rebuttal to the claims that there is no censorship. I find this troubling. Yes, there is still free speech but Chavez has moved to silence criticism and he did close the TV station. Chavez would not be able to survive by simply taking away all rights at once. He needs to do so one right at a time. George Bush didn't simply step in and seize power. He started chipping away at rights. Bush had a term limit. Chavez would like to have an unlimited number of elections.

Back to Peron. She serves as a good reminder that playing to the common person can be very effective politically. Improving social programs is good but has Chavez really delivered on his promises? It's not very promising.

ETA: One of the troubling issues of the video is the undercurrent of class warfare. I'm happy to agree that the disparity between the rich and poor is obscene. I think it a fair point of discussion but what is the argument? Pilger points out that there is no Bolshevik revolution but what isn't clear is whether or not there should be?
 
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The Empire

One troubling aspect of the video is the conspiracy theory. There are assertions and scant evidence to support the claims about the deaths during the marches. The video makes the typical shadowy assertions and connecting of links. I don't doubt that there is some truth in the assertions but the claims are not corroborated. There is but one individual who claims the video of the opposition discussing the deaths was shot before the march. Why would they do that? What point is there to take a pointless risk of exposing the conspiracy? It doesn't ring true.
 
RandFan said:
About 16:30 into the video. A rebuttal to the claims that there is no censorship. I find this troubling. Yes, there is still free speech but Chavez has moved to silence criticism and he did close the TV station.
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See RandFan, you are misinformed. Chavez did not close RCTV. He did not renew their license for a slot of terrestrial broadcast. They are free to continue broadcasting over satellite. The station was involved with the failed coup and Chavez did say as early as 2002 that he will not renew the license (which ran for six years if i'm not mistaken). I remember the big fuzz the corporate media made about this, so i don't blame you. It's always only when some time passes by that they correct their deceptive reporting, if at all. Like in the case of the Georgia-Russia issue. Read Tailgater's Reuters article:

Reuters said:
... refusing to renew the license of an opposition television channel.
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RandFan said:
ETA: One of the troubling issues of the video is the undercurrent of class warfare. I'm happy to agree that the disparity between the rich and poor is obscene. I think it a fair point of discussion but what is the argument? Pilger points out that there is no Bolshevik revolution but what isn't clear is whether or not there should be?
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It is class warfare. Earlier you said that you are fine with critizising "mistakes" by US authorities. This is a misconception. We are dealing with conscious hegemonial power politics ranging over most of the 20th century, not with mistakes.

Oh, and you didn't quote the whole answer of Chavez to Pilger's question. You have to recognize the state of the country when Chavez became president to judge the success of his efforts. Out of this reason it is also unfair to blame him for the criminality in Caracas (which is indeed a huge problem).

And are you mixing up Argentina and Venezuela or am i missing something?
 
RandFan said:
One troubling aspect of the video is the conspiracy theory. There are assertions and scant evidence to support the claims about the deaths during the marches. The video makes the typical shadowy assertions and connecting of links. I don't doubt that there is some truth in the assertions but the claims are not corroborated. There is but one individual who claims the video of the opposition discussing the deaths was shot before the march. Why would they do that? What point is there to take a pointless risk of exposing the conspiracy? It doesn't ring true.
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You can read the US documents regarding the coup on www.venezuelaFOIA.info.
 
The idiocy of the oposition.

It was wrong to overthrow Chavez. It was idiotic to suspend the assembly, the Supreme Court, the Attorney General and the other groups. The stupidity of that is incomprehensible.
 
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