Psychic Samurai applies for MDC...apparently...

Status
Not open for further replies.
If TP didn't have permission to be there it's his own fault. I don't think anyone else can be blamed/credited.
 
[
steenkh said:
Am I the only one to find it unfortunate that JREF forumites do their best to prevent a planned test, rather than letting it flop of its own account?

Well, the event of Halloween this year was of course not a test, but merely a show, but next year ...
Click to expand...

I do see your point. But I didn't prevent the test, the police did. David was clearly lying to them, or this would have never been a problem. I just gave them the opportunity to take an informed decision. I'm not a “rat”, because I'm not in the mob. And I don't represent the forumites. I acted on public information, and I speak only for myself.

Nor was my intention to prevent the challenge or a test. I'm not needed in that department. But I will react on people dancing on others graves. My point is that this was/is illegal, until he gets permission from the proper authorities, which he clearly didn't get, and which I IMO doubt he will ever get. He got one under false pretences, and got busted so it seems. This would have been an issue sooner or later. Why not sooner? I'm merely preventing everybody, including David from wasting their time on this particular subject.

Put yourself in the situation of having a relative buried in the cemetery. How would you feel if Uri Geller or another con artist did a show with music and lights on top of your dead granma, with her resting place as a prop? Pretending to communicate with her? Then the problem gets more “real”. I'm actually surprised you don't see this.

This is not a high and mighty principle I found opportune to use in this particular case. It honestly offends me to think about what he planned to do in a grave yard on top of buried and cremated persons. And since I'm usually not a particular sensitive person, I can easily see other(particular families and friends of the passed) get really upset over this. It's incredibly insensitive, even for an atheist.

I agree it would be satisfying to see the challenge through. But I hope most agree that, no matter how boring it sound (as pointed out), entertainment value can't the ethic compass in this case.

I don't think it actually matters if it is a show or a challenge test. No sensible persons would allow this anyway. ("ohh, it's a science project is it? with IVP and ITC and spirits and ghost radios, you say? Speaking to dead persons in our cemetery, trying to win a million bucks? Uhhh, no thank you..")

Besides, all David has to do, is to remove the illegal elements in his protocol. According to the rules(if I remember correctly) he is obligated to do this anyway.

Eirik
 
I'm confused by this. There has been some disapproval expressed because someone may have prevented an activity related to an MDC claim. The legality of that activity is secondary.

Is that really the position being expressed? The Million Dollar Challenge is above the law?
 
I agree with Eirik. If TP would have cleared everything with the cemetery and the police, they would have answered: 'Yes we know, thank you'.
Of course it would have been swell to see what would have happened if TP would have stood there with his EVP, white noise generators and faraday cages, but when you are dealing with a place where people feel quite strongly about resting in peace, you should respect that, I think.
The ball was in TP's court, he should have gotten permission. It is not Eirik's fault.
 
I've still seen no proof that Mr Koenig attempted to enter the cemetery on Halloween. As far as I'm aware it was Jim Callahans International Seance Project that had issues. I've been in contact with Mr Callahan since the event, and he has told me that his "council" has informed him not to discuss the matter any further. In Australia, council refers to local government, but I can only assume that Mr Callahan is referring to legal council. He is obviously busy, so I didn't bother to ask him any more questions.

Mr Koenig, can you tell us whether or not you were at the Devils Chair on October 31st of this year, and whether you had issues with the Police?

Eirik, did you receive a response from the Lake Helen Police Department after sending your letter?

Chris
 
OK, this thread drift has taken over a little. The discussion of this Hallowe'en's event is under discussion elsewhere and this thread is meant for protocol discussion, or issues relevant to the claim (which is how the first few got through). The event at Hallowe'en was not for the claim, so should not be pursued further here. Let's refocus please.
 
Professor, can you give us details on what happened on Halloween and how it was documented? This would facilitate the development of a protocol.
 
eirik said:
Hi David. You have been asking about who alerted the cemetary about your experiment.

Here's the mail I sent on Sptember 26. to the Lake Helen Police Department, as I told you I would. When this problem was raised on the forum, you (in a more bullying tone)told the forumites that this was no legal problem, and that this was perfectly OK with the cemetary. Well, you were wrong, and you are now proven wrong in this particular question.

The mail:

“To the Police Chief of Lake Helen, Florida.

It has come to my attention that a Mr Dave Koenig is planning a spirit seance/ a magic show in the cemetary of Lake Helen/Cassadega, the exact location being on a stone chair between two headstones, on "the devils chair" on the 31. oct 2008(halloween next month), and again in 2009.

As this could be offensive to the relatives and families of the deceased, I'm writing you, or to whom it may concern, to inquire how the City in general would stand on such an application, if you were to receive one.

Respectfully (..)”

You don't have to be a lawyer (but it so happens that I am) to know that a séance in a cemetary is a grave insult to the families of the deceased, and that the owners(the city) would never allow it. My guess was that David probably knew this as well, and that he therefore would choose to be insincere in his contact wit LHPD. Hence the tip.

You, David, planned to do something illegal, and I notified the persons in question. It's a moral obligation if you can appreciate such a notion, and I will expect anyone to do the same. If your challenge requires you to break the law, I guess you should back out now, or remove the parts relevant to this problem. I'm sure there is a challenge rule stating that this is not acceptable, and the JREF would in any case, I'm sure, never accept such a protocol.

Qoute from the Magic Cafe Forum, David Koenig:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=282932&forum=251&start=150


“As for the location, you are aware that certain JREFer's have contacted the Lake Helen Police Department in an effort to disrupt the testing protocol.

I had arranged for the use of the cemetery with the proper authorities prior to my applications approval.

However, this did not stop that sabotage attempt and I am looking into seeing what can be done about the skeptics who only want to interfere.

The Cemetery closes at 7 PM and the authorities had agreed to a human interest story being filmed there at that time. Instructions for the medias behavior had already been drawn up and agreed to. Everyone involved had agreed to be respectful in that location.

DVD's have been filmed there before.”


This was not a smart move. “human interest story”? Come on. So you lied to the police, and they didn't appreciate it. Why didn't you tell the truth, about invocations and talking to the dead and of IVP, ETC and other scientifically proven equipment? Beacause you knew they would never permit this insane behaviour in a cemetary.

Let me just say this about the sabotage-attempt- do you even realize what the word means? How can a mail wich only describes truthful facts be sabotage?(unless I'm Batman and you are a super villain..)

And “DVD's”? Ohh, well, it seems you have it all covered then.

You should concentrate more on your protocol. If you had listened to the advice given you about this particular problem, it would have saved you the embarassment of being busted on halloween, AND you could have adressed more meaningful problems with your protocol. Now that you have lied to the LHPD, it's not likely they will ever let you get the permit you need.

If I have been unclear, I will of course be sending a new mail next halloween.

Best Eirik
Click to expand...

Thanks Eirik for your confession.

I am proceeding with my protocol as instructed by the JREF MDC. I am happy I've made quite a bit of progress.

I'm glad my claim has been accepted on behalf of the thousands of paranormal researchers who are having more and more EVP and ITC evidence recorded and who show support for my efforts.

I am working on the SELF EVIDENT portion of the protocol and help in this area is what I need at this time.

I think there may be a simple way to do this.

I'd like to thank everyone for their help this far!
Thanks
Dave
 
jsfisher said:
I'm confused by this. There has been some disapproval expressed because someone may have prevented an activity related to an MDC claim. The legality of that activity is secondary.

Is that really the position being expressed? The Million Dollar Challenge is above the law?
Click to expand...

It is not Illegal to congregate in the Lake Helen Cemetery between 7AM and 7PM. My Protocol has this taking place at 6PM. This was agreed upon. I had also drawn up a directive for anyone in attendance as to respect and responsibility in any place of rest.

I have had film crews in the cemetery before and several Movies have been filmed at this site. The PBS is also filming a series to come the first of the new year. NEVER A PROBLEM.

I was also contacted by the director of "Chasing The Devil" filmed there in an effort to help with the protocol.
We are continuing our discussions and getting closer to what I believe is an acceptable protocol.

To claim that this is not legal is totally false.
I've been there many times and this protocol should be no problem.
 
Professor, can you give us details on what happened on Halloween and how it was documented? This would facilitate the development of a protocol.
 
The Professor said:
It is not Illegal to congregate in the Lake Helen Cemetery between 7AM and 7PM. My Protocol has this taking place at 6PM.
. . .
I have had film crews in the cemetery before and several Movies have been filmed at this site. The PBS is also filming a series to come the first of the new year. NEVER A PROBLEM.
Click to expand...

This is not the same as a group of people congregating at a location. You will, very likely, require written permission to conduct your event.

Also, you may need a film permit:
http://www.filminflorida.com/lr/local_film_commissions.asp
 
The Professor said:
It is not Illegal to congregate in the Lake Helen Cemetery between 7AM and 7PM. My Protocol has this taking place at 6PM. This was agreed upon.
Click to expand...

Does Florida have different clocks to rest of the world? Your claim is for midnight at Halloween.Forgive me if I don't get excited at claims your protocol is proceeding.Heard it before.:rolleyes:
 
Pantaz said:
This is not the same as a group of people congregating at a location. You will, very likely, require written permission to conduct your event.

Also, you may need a film permit:
http://www.filminflorida.com/lr/local_film_commissions.asp
Click to expand...

No written permission is required. This is NOT a Movie. Where did you get the idea it was?

Media do not require permits other than the ones they already possess.

So you are trying to say what?

And how does this relate to my Protocol?

I'm sure you are trying to help.
 
The Professor said:
I contacted the Lake Helen Police Department before I even applied. The Lake Helen Cemetery is a public place and open to me from 7AM to 7 PM. It is legal for us to be there during those times. I will have to ask special permission to be there at Midnight and the chances are very good I will be denied that, but I am willing to adapt and adjust to another time if I have to.
So are there any problems remaining about The Place?
Thanks for the help.
Dave
If not, I will submit it to RemieV.
Click to expand...

So have you now adjusted to another time with this quote?

It is not Illegal to congregate in the Lake Helen Cemetery between 7AM and 7PM. My Protocol has this taking place at 6PM. This was agreed upon. I had also drawn up a directive for anyone in attendance as to respect and responsibility in any place of rest.
Click to expand...
 
The Professor said:
No written permission is required. This is NOT a Movie. Where did you get the idea it was?

Media do not require permits other than the ones they already possess.

So you are trying to say what?

And how does this relate to my Protocol?

I'm sure you are trying to help.
Click to expand...

I had to get written permission from the City of Melbourne to shoot a high school music video in the city one night. Just me, a camera on a tripod and one actor. You may find that any kind of filming in a public place requires permission.

Chris
 
Professor, I hate to be a nag. Can you give us details on what happened on Halloween and how it was documented? This would facilitate the development of a protocol.
 
The Skeptic's Bible said:
I had to get written permission from the City of Melbourne to shoot a high school music video in the city one night. Just me, a camera on a tripod and one actor. You may find that any kind of filming in a public place requires permission.

Chris
Click to expand...

So are you claiming that the laws in the city of Melbourne Australia are exactly the same as Lake Helen Florida? (Melbourne's population is more than 1,000 times that of Lake Helen :) )

Rozzie Franco can confirm that no extra permits are needed. She's been on Radio and TV for years. (not just someone filming a local high school musical in another country)


My Protocol is moving right along with the media pitching in their help as well as two more writers assisting in the "Self Evident" portion of the Protocol.

I will be emailing Jeff Wagg with all of the new findings very soon.

I will attempt to call Randi with a few question too.

Thanks for all the help!
Dave
 
Dave, it was not a confession. I just said what i would do, and did it. Try it:) I'm happy that you don't let this ruin your day.

I'm sincerely glad you are back and working on your protocol. It would be refreshing if you could present any suggetions for a protocol any time soon.

Chris: I got an automated answer/receipt to my mail, no personally response. It is off course possible that the police/security on halloween were keeping an extra eye on the cemetery anyway, and that I had nothing to do with it (i didn't think of that until someone here mentioned it recently). I reacted to a post in the magic cafe a friend sent me(the one I cited in my former post), and I may have jumped to conclusions.Well well, we'll probably never know.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom