Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[arthwollipot]

...peaceful, loving European Christians tried to conquer every last corner of the globe and insisted on spreading their religion to anyone they could get their claws on....

*cough* Saint Olaf *cough*

 

[arthwollipot]

Ah, here's the passage. This is from King Olaf's Saga, a part of the Heimskringla, or the Chronicles of the Kings of Norway:

The
king then proceeded southwards himself along the coast, stopping
at every district, and holding Things with the bondes; and in
each Thing he ordered the Christian law to be read, together with
the message of salvation thereunto belonging, and with which many
ill customs and much heathenism were swept away at once among the
common people: for the earls had kept well the old laws and
rights of the country; but with respect to keeping Christianity,
they had allowed every man to do as he liked. It was thus come
so far that the people were baptized in the most places on the
sea-coast, but the most of them were ignorant of Christian law.
In the upper ends of the valleys, and in the habitations among
the mountains, the greater part of the people were heathen; for
when the common man is left to himself, the faith he has been
taught in his childhood is that which has the strongest hold over
his inclination. But the king threatened the most violent
proceedings against great or small, who, after the king's
message, would not adopt Christianity.

A miracle that a Viking would threaten "the most violent proceedings" against those who would not adopt Christianity!

 

[zooterkin]

*cough* Saint Olaf *cough*

My old school's motto is "Olaf to right the wrong" in reference to the saint the school was named after, as was the school song. Unfortunately, Olaf's general method for righting wrongs was to chop off the head of the person who did said wrong, hence the school crest of an axe and crown. Not sure what we were meant to learn from this....

 

[DOC]

I do not care about the life of Christ. I, for one, have never argued that there was never a historical Jesus figure.

Show me any evidence that he rose from the dead.

So you want God to perform tricks for "everyone" so you will love Him. I have a feeling God/Jesus/Holy Spirit does not work that way, and after thinking about it I wouldn't want Him to act that way. My belief is that Jesus appeared to just as many people as was necessary to show He was who He said He was. And thus the greatest selling book and the greatest religious movement of all time did get out and flourished and will flourish long after we're dead unless the End Times come before then.

Christianity is based mostly on love, not surgical facts. But it is my belief God does give enough evidence (some of which I have pointed out in my 160+ posts) to rationally believe in Him, but once again not so much evidence that our relationship with Him is too rational and too surgical.

 

[arthwollipot]

So, rationality is not the right way, then?

 

[paximperium]

So you want God to perform tricks for "everyone" so you will love Him. I have a feeling God/Jesus/Holy Spirit does not work that way, and after thinking about it I wouldn't want Him to act that way. My belief is that Jesus appeared to just as many people as was necessary to show He was who He said He was. And thus the greatest selling book of all time did get out and flourished and will flourish long after we're dead unless the End Times come before then.

Christianity is based on love, not surgical facts. But it is my belief God does give enough evidence (some of which I have pointed out in my 160+ posts) to rationally believe in Him, but once again not so much evidence that our relationship with Him is too rational and too surgical.

In other words, you have NONE, ZERO, ZILCH evidence and am now whining and preaching.

Why did you even start a thread called "Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth."?

 

[paximperium]

So, rationality is not the right way, then?

An Irrational and Unreasonable belief system is Christianity.

 

[zooterkin]

Christianity is based mostly on love, not surgical facts.

I don't think 'surgical' is the word you're looking for.

But it is my belief God does give enough evidence (some of which I have pointed out in my 160+ posts) to rationally believe in Him, but once again not so much evidence that our relationship with Him is too rational and too surgical.

If you think you've pointed out any evidence to support the proposition in the thread title, then 'evidence' isn't the word you're looking for, either.

The number of posts you've taken to do this is, of course, irrelevant.

 

[Lothian]

So you want God to perform tricks for "everyone" so you will love Him. I have a feeling God/Jesus/Holy Spirit does not work that way, and after thinking about it I wouldn't want Him to act that way.

So you don't believe the die and come back to life trick. The water to wine trick. The feeding the 5000 trick. The drowning nearly everyone trick, the plague trick...need I go on

My belief is that Jesus appeared to just as many people as was necessary to show He was who He said He was. And thus the greatest selling book and the greatest religious movement of all time did get out and flourished and will flourish long after we're dead unless the End Times come before then.

What has Jesus got to do with Mao? Have you forgotten already that when you linked to the best selling book before it showed that The Little Red Book has outsold the bible.

Christianity is based mostly on love, not surgical facts. But it is my belief God does give enough evidence (some of which I have pointed out in my 160+ posts) to rationally believe in Him, but once again not so much evidence that our relationship with Him is too rational and too surgical.

Christianity is based on fear, and as you demonstrate lies, there are no facts supporting its wild claims.

 

[DOC]

In other words, you have NONE, ZERO, ZILCH evidence and am now whining and preaching.

Huh, haven't you read my 174 posts?

 

[paximperium]

Huh, haven't you read my 174 posts?

Yes I have. You have still have zero, zilch, nada, nothing. You obviously haven't read the other 600+ posts.

 

[DOC]

An Irrational and Unreasonable belief system is Christianity.

Thomas Jefferson would have disagreed with you. Although he wasn't a mainline or spiritually oriented Christian, he didn't spend his nights cutting and pasting bible passages for a book for the fun of it.

 

[paximperium]

Thomas Jefferson would have disagreed with you. Although he wasn't a mainline or spiritually oriented Christian, he didn't spend his nights cutting and pasting bible passages for a book for the fun of it.

So what?

You mean how Mr Jefferson, the Deist disassembled the Bible, removed all the supernatural parts, denied Jesus' divinity and kept some of the underlying philosophy that he agreed with? If you want to call that Christianity, then good for you. You've obviously never read the Jefferson Bible.

That's the most irrelevant non-sequitur and downright desperate argument from authority I've ever read.

 

[paximperium]

The ending of the Jefferson Bible:

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
49 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elijah.
50 And straightway one of them ran, and took a sponge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
51 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him.
52 Jesus, when he had cried out again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
53 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
54 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.
55 The Jews therefore, because it was the day of preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath, (for that sabbath was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
56 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
57 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
58 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
59 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
60 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
61 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen cloths with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
62 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
63 There laid they Jesus,
64 And rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

[SIZE=+1]
Ooops...Jesus died, end of story
[/SIZE]

 

[Hokulele]

So you want God to perform tricks for "everyone" so you will love Him.

<nonsense>

No, I want you to provide evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[six7s]

So you want God to perform tricks for "everyone" so you will love Him.

Huh?

All we want, here on a critical thinking forum, is some evidence that supports your claim so that we can think about your claim, critically

I have a feeling God/Jesus/Holy Spirit does not work that way, and after thinking about it I wouldn't want Him to act that way.

Your feelings are irrelevant to the discussion.

And your thinking is anything but critical

My belief is that Jesus appeared...

Please DOC, stop trolling

Beliefs are irrelevant, especially when there is "zero, zilch, nada, nothing" in the way of supporting evidence

And thus the greatest selling book and the greatest religious movement of all time

DOC, you are pathetic; you ask if we have read your 174 posts when you, it seems, have completely ignored at least as many posts directed specifically to you (in numerous threads) that politely and coherently explain how logical fallacies (e.g. appeals to popularity) are not only irrelevant but also counter productive in a critical thinking discussion

It seems that you are unwilling or incapable of grasping such simple concepts

That is your problem; a problem that many here have patiently tried to help you with

However, as with all personal problems...

How many social workers does it take to change a light bulb?

Only one, but the light bulb has to want to change
​

What's up, DOC?

• Do you want to change (ie develop your critical thinking skills)?

• Or are you simply here to become further entrenched in your beliefs?

Thats all, folks

 

[RichardR]

These are really lame, but I will comment on two that are demonstrably false:

Reason #1

The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details About Themselves.

For example some passages portray the disciples as dim-witted, uncaring, and cowards.

Which might be a good argument if the New Testament writers were actually the disciples. But as we know, the first Gospels were written around AD 70 by people who did not even witness the events they were describing. They were certainly not written by the apostles.

Reason #9

The New Testament Writers Describe Miracles Like Other Historical Events: With Simple, Unembellished Accounts.

They "Describe Miracles... With... Unembellished Accounts"? Surely you are assuming the conclusion here - namely that the miracles actually happened as described. If they didn't happen, then the accounts are clearly not unembellished.

I hardly think the ressurection of an executed man, two days after he died, could in any way be described as "simple". Simple in what universe? And didn't some accounts have angels guarding Jesus' tomb? Simple? Unembellished? Gimme a break.

 

[charles brough]

It seems to me that it sure takes a lot of posts to answer Doc's questions without going through the laborious task of taking them one at a time.

It seems that most hinge on self-depreciation. One poster mentioned that the disciples did not want to present themselves as equals of Christ. In fact, the disciples come across as gross idiots when you consider how many miracles Christ had to supposedly perform for them just to make them believe he could.

It would help to put all this into the times in which the New Testament was written. The Roman Empire was in decline and people were miserable---like now. they looked at the future and only saw thing getting worse, as we do today. In order to sell the people the one-God idea of the Jews, they had to tap into this despair. They had to show themselves and Christ as human with weaknesses also. Their teachings were for the downtrodden. If the trick worked now on Doc, why wouldn't it work then?

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

It seems to me that it sure takes a lot of posts to answer Doc's questions without going through the laborious task of taking them one at a time.

It seems that most hinge on self-depreciation. One poster mentioned that the disciples did not want to present themselves as equals of Christ. In fact, the disciples come across as gross idiots when you consider how many miracles Christ had to supposedly perform for them just to make them believe he could.

It would help to put all this into the times in which the New Testament was written. The Roman Empire was in decline and people were miserable---like now. they looked at the future and only saw thing getting worse, as we do today. In order to sell the people the one-God idea of the Jews, they had to tap into this despair. They had to show themselves and Christ as human with weaknesses also. Their teachings were for the downtrodden. If the trick worked now on Doc, why wouldn't it work then?

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

Been there and tried that - in the first few pages. You'll get used to DOC as time passes. Sometimes repeating arguments makes him give one of them up for a little while. I think that's the best anyone can hope for because he goes right back to them after sufficient time passes.

As for the disciples looking like idiots, that protrayal was primarily in Mark and it served a literary purpose -- remember, these were all literary works. The two main themes of Mark's gospel were that Jesus was the messiah because he had to suffer and die, and no one realized that he was the Messiah, even the people he cured, his family (who thought he was nuts), and the disciples (who consequently look duller than broken pencil lead). They don't look so dumb in the other gospels. In John only two of them are made to look bad -- Peter and Thomas -- but that was probably for political reasons in the emerging communities.

 

[charles brough]

seems to me that most Free Thinkers assume a Jesus existed then who was executed. The problem with the front piece of this thread is that it assumes the New Testament is the "truth" because non-biblical sources mention him. This is a big leap of faith.

Also, I notice that the one link in the last Doc's post opens up to a ministries. Statements in it also claim the New Testament to be "the Truth." Of course it would say that.

Perhaps other "jesuses" were executed for worse crimes than trying to start a riot in the Temple and He was merely the one who was rumored to have "died for us", a rumor that spread wildly because the people had grown demoralized by the onerous decline of the Roman world.

charles