Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Ichneumonwasp]

I noticed there is no sources for this. This following excerpt of a letter by Pliny the Younger, a Roman governor of an Asia Minor province, to the Roman emperor tells a different story of the Roman Empire mindset.

"...In the meanwhile, the method I have observed towards those who have denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were Christians; if they confessed it I repeated the question twice again, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed. For whatever the nature of their creed might be, I could at least feel not doubt that contumacy and inflexible obstinacy deserved chastisement. There were others also possessed with the same infatuation, but being citizens of Rome, I directed them to be carried thither.

These accusations spread (as is usually the case) from the mere fact of the matter being investigated and several forms of the mischief came to light. A placard was put up, without any signature, accusing a large number of persons by name. Those who denied they were, or had ever been, Christians, who repeated after me an invocation to the gods, and offered adoration, with wine and frankincense, to your {Emperor Trajan} image, which I had ordered to be brought for that purpose, together with those of the gods, and who finally cursed Christ -- none of which acts, it is into performing -- these I thought it proper to discharge. Others who were named by that informer at first confessed themselves Christians, and then denied it; true, they had been of that persuasion but they had quitted it, some three years, others many years, and a few as much as twenty-five years ago. They all worshipped your statue and the images of the gods, and cursed Christ..."

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/pliny-the-younger.htm

------

If I was to write a gospel in Pliny's Roman province, I sure as heck wouldn't sign it, if I planned on doing anymore evangelizing.

Did you read what I wrote? You can't possibly be responding to it, or you don't understand who Pliny was, what his letter concerned, or what he wrote about.

Pliny was the "governor" of Bithynia. There was frequent concern in this province of disruption of the peace. The governor's job was to collect taxes and keep the peace. Consequently, previous governors of Bithynia had decreed that secret gatherings of people were to be discouraged, because they feared that such gatherings could lead to political unrest.

Pliny's way of dealing with the situation -- he wrote the letter to Trajan to ask his advice if this was a good approach -- was to ask Christians, who it appeared did meet secretly, to swear an oath to the Emperor and sacrifice to him (a common Roman political act). When they did not, he had them killed. The issue with Pliny was not Christians being Christian but the fact that they gathered together secretly, and he worried that they might be plotting something. It was a political issue, which is why he proposed a political solution.

There is no evidence that any of the gospels were written in Bithynia. But, even if they were, I'm not sure why that would be an issue. Taking up your cross and dying as Jesus did was an integral part of the faith early on. Some even sought it out.

To further stress the other points, this was a local issue, not an Empire-wide issue. The same was true of Nero's persecution in the 60's (localized to the city of Rome itself) and the persecutions during the reign of Marcus Aurelius, which were local affairs started by the mob in Gaul.

The first Empire-wide persecution of Christians was under Decius in 250. As Decius died in 251, and the program was not continued, this persecution did not last long and certainly came nowhere near being a breaker for the Christian faith, which was well-entrenched by that time (the gospels were written more than 150 years before).

Sources? Read any textbook on the Roman world that covers the Christians and the Christian era since this is not secret information. If you want Wiki links, just go to Wikipedia and look up the particulars involved -- Pliny the Younger, Nero, Trajan, Decius, Marcus Aurelius.

Frankly, if you have any interest in early Christianity I don't understand how you could not know this information.


ETA:
Sorry, forgot to add that Pliny wrote his letter to Trajan at least 10 and possibly 16-17 years after the last gospel was written. He was governor from 111 to 113.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

For those interested, here is the full text of the letter from Pliny to Trajan, rather than the carefully clipped bits that DOC provided:



It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.

Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.




Incidentally, Trajan replied, in essence, "Ya done good, grasshopper"

 

[DOC]

...Are there any of these sources which are not merely reporting the fact that there were Christians who believed certain things?

Yes, Tacitus for one, that is unless you believe the famous Roman Senator/historian did not believe the history he wrote. He wrote that Christus {Christ} suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of "our" procurators, Pontius Pilatus.

 

[Lothian]

Yes, Tacitus for one, that is unless you believe the famous Roman Senator/historian did not believe the history he wrote. He wrote that Christus {Christ} suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of "our" procurators, Pontius Pilatus.

Tacitus was born after Jesus Died.
He therefore was reporting hearsay when writing his annals in 110AD.
He did not verify any of the Jesus story other than the fact someone called Christ died, and gave his name to Christians.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Yes, Tacitus for one, that is unless you believe the famous Roman Senator/historian did not believe the history he wrote. He wrote that Christus {Christ} suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of "our" procurators, Pontius Pilatus.

Tacitus lived from 56 to 117 and wrote his Annals around 110, over a century after Jesus was said to have been executed. There is nothing to indicate that he is doing anything other than recounting the claims of the Christians themselves that Christ was executed as a criminal by Roman authorities. There is nothing here that can be said to truly authenticate the existence of Jesus.

Here is the passage in full:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

 

[zooterkin]

Yes, Tacitus for one, that is unless you believe the famous Roman Senator/historian did not believe the history he wrote. He wrote that Christus {Christ} suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of "our" procurators, Pontius Pilatus.

So, not Tacitus. Care to try again?

 

[Hokulele]

I'm still waiting for anything, anything, historical that mentions Jesus rising from the dead. Not that Christians simply believed this to be the case.

 

[paximperium]

What did I miss?...hey deja vu, looks like DOC is continuing to make these discredited claims.

I agree with Hokulele...do you have any evidence of Jesus rising from the dead? All you have a hearsay and mini-quotes.

The MOST you could claim is Christus(a meaningless name to a Roman) some criminal who was executed by Pontius Pilate(who Tacitus gives the wrong title) formed the Christians. Alright...so?

 

[Foster Zygote]

What did I miss?...hey deja vu, looks like DOC is continuing to make these discredited claims.

I agree with Hokulele...do you have any evidence of Jesus rising from the dead? All you have a hearsay and mini-quotes.

The MOST you could claim is Christus(a meaningless name to a Roman) some criminal who was executed by Pontius Pilate(who Tacitus gives the wrong title) formed the Christians. Alright...so?

When Pilate was governing Judea he would have been known as a "prefect". But by 110 this position had come to be known by the title "procurator", so it's not that big a deal that Tacitus would call Pilate a "procurator". It does, however, emphasize the fact that Tacitus was writing about events long after the fact.

 

[DOC]

What did I miss?...hey deja vu, looks like DOC is continuing to make these discredited claims.

I agree with Hokulele...do you have any evidence of Jesus rising from the dead? All you have a hearsay and mini-quotes.

What kind of evidence do you want - a video. I've already pointed out there are more sources for the life of Christ than for the existence of the Roman emperor. And as Augustine once said, The conversion of the world to Christianity without miracles would have been a greater miracle than all the rest.

 

[paximperium]

What kind of evidence do you want - a video. I've already pointed out there are more sources for the life of Christ than for the existence of the Roman emperor.

Hey, great. If you would be so kind as to actually present them, it would be really appreciated.

Since you have only ever presented evidence of early Christians and what they believed, you can keep claiming this or you can actually present some of it. Why are you being so coy?

And as Augustine once said, The conversion of the world to Christianity without miracles would have been a greater miracle than all the rest.

So? Augustine was a Christian who lived several centuries after the supposed Jesus, so he bought into the coolaid. Hoe does that support the resurrection of Jesus?

 

[six7s]

What kind of evidence do you want

Does the phrase "Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth." ring any bells?

I've already pointed out there are more sources for the life of Christ than for the existence of the Roman emperor.

A red-herring repeated is still a red herring

Your claim isn't that 'a whole bunch of people wrote about your messiah', your claim is that 'the words attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are more than fantasy'... or am I erroneously inferring something?

And as Augustine once said, The conversion of the world to Christianity without miracles would have been a greater miracle than all the rest.

So? Quit trolling. Either give us some evidence or admit you have none

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

What kind of evidence do you want - a video. I've already pointed out there are more sources for the life of Christ than for the existence of the Roman emperor. And as Augustine once said, The conversion of the world to Christianity without miracles would have been a greater miracle than all the rest.

I'm sorry, but that is not really correct and is a bit misleading. First of all, the number of sources is not important unless we discuss contemporary sources, and then it is very relevant. Second of all, you should focus on the quality of the sources, rather than the number.


We have the same number of primary sources serving as biographies -- four biographies of Tiberius, four writings on Jesus' life (from the evangelists) with a smattering of other references for Tiberius from the Roman side and for Jesus from the Christian side; but none of these, aside from the very limited amount of information we can glean from Paul's letters tell us anything about Jesus' life (which is more or less the same with the other sources on Tiberius) -- unless you wish to include non-canonical works on Jesus, which would make him the clear leader but presents significant problems. I leave the writings of the Church fathers out of this, but we could also include them, also making Jesus the clear leader; but, to be fair in that scenario, we should also include the non-surviving works of Marcion and the many gnostic tracts as well as the references we have to the Nazaraen gospel and other evidence for heterodox belief early in Christian history.

The primary differences are:

1. One of the sources for Tiberius' life wrote while the emperor was still alive.
2. One of the sources for Tiberius' life mentions actual writings that the emperor left behind that he used as a source.
3. All of these works were proper histories.
4. With the exception of Velleius Paterculus, these accounts were fairly negative portrayals of the emperor.
5. We also have physical evidence of Tiberius' life in the existence of coins, a bust of his head, and ruins of his villa.

The gospels, on the other hand, were devotional works written decades after the fact, based on oral traditions. There is no contemporary account of Jesus' life. There is no surviving physical evidence of which we can be sure.

The non-Christian sources for Jesus do not mention anything about his life, with one exception, and that is the reference to James in Josephus, indicating that James was Jesus' brother, which accords with Acts and Paul. It is possible that this passage was tampered with -- particularly the reference to Jesus as "being called Messiah" -- and it may not refer to the Jesus of the gospels at all. Unfortunately we do not know. But that is the best it gets outside of the New Testament. All of the other sources refer to Christians and their beliefs about Jesus, and all occur after 100 (the one exception being Josephus, already mentioned).

 

[Hokulele]

What kind of evidence do you want - a video. I've already pointed out there are more sources for the life of Christ than for the existence of the Roman emperor.

I do not care about the life of Christ. I, for one, have never argued that there was never a historical Jesus figure.

Show me any evidence that he rose from the dead.

Not. That. Other. People. Believed. He. Did.

You know, your OP?

Showing evidence that people believe all kinds of kooky things is easy. Evidence that they are true is more difficult.

And as Augustine once said, The conversion of the world to Christianity without miracles would have been a greater miracle than all the rest.

I wonder how he would have explained the spread of Buddhism . . .

 

[arthwollipot]

And as Augustine once said, The conversion of the world to Christianity without miracles would have been a greater miracle than all the rest.

It's news to me that "the world" was converted to Christianity. The Australian Aboriginals had never heard of it before we whitefellas brought it to them.

 

[tyr_13]

I wonder how he would have explained the spread of Buddhism . . .

By Odin's lost eye, every time I think I have a point that someone else hasn't said! Grrrrrr

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The conversion of the world to Christianity without miracles would have been a greater miracle than all the rest.

Not very familiar with how Christianity spread, are you? To give an example, Christianity spread like wildfire through the Roman empire because it was thought to be against slavery (actually reading the Bible has to say on the subject obviously wasn't very popular then either). It spread through other parts of the world due to the simple fact that the peaceful, loving European Christians tried to conquer every last corner of the globe and insisted on spreading their religion to anyone they could get their claws on. Even today you've got charity groups which'll only give aid to the poor chaps who agree to convert to Christianity.

Deception, brute force and exploitation of the weak. No miracles involved. Why isn't Buddhism as popular throughout the world as Christianity? Maybe because Buddhists, unlike Christians, haven't been hell-bent throughout history on making everyone believe what they do. Maybe because there never was a Buddhist empire on which the sun never set.

Communism, too, spread like wildfire and once ruled a significant portion of the world. Does this mean communism was actually a great system, or that people can simply be freaking dumb on occasion?

 

[dafydd]

And FSM do you think you'll ever have someone like Thomas Jefferson say your moral teachings are the greatest the world has ever known like Jefferson said about the teachings of Jesus.[/QUOTE]

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

What is it men cannot be made to believe!
-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820

Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.
-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17 1825

 

[dafydd]

By the way Doc,thank you.Reading your posts sure beats the hell out of watching comedy shows on tv.Oh and,take a look in a dictionary and read the definition of the word 'evidence'

 

[Lothian]

Dafydd, I would keep those quotes somewhere safe. Doc is simply a cyclical lying machine. He will soon get back round to telling us all the presidents were fully signed up believers.