A Thermite/Thermate Question

[Grizzly Bear]

guess what we had on 911....a few war games!!

If you're going to the NORAD topic, then pick a thread

 

[A W Smith]

well im not sure why you expect me to know exactly how much thermite was used and where they put them and who put them there and how they placed them there .

I can only speculate and theorize the best place to do it would be to use the elevator shafts were noone could see you ,

Yet the core columns surrounding the elevator shafts were the last things seen collapsing in many videos. And did you happen to notice the Myth busters thread where 2000 Lbs of thermite failed to cut a car in half? Do you have any idea how thin the steel is in a modern car is today? Are you a comic? are you paid to post stupidity?

 

[GodisEnergy]

The twin towers had 15 miles of elevator shafts
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm

mechanical rooms below the skylobby as well could be a good place to place explosives

 

[A W Smith]

The twin towers had 15 miles of elevator shafts
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm

mechanical rooms below the skylobby as well could be a good place to place explosives

are you even listening? the cores were the last to fall

 

[TheRedWorm]

And still nothing on the rest? Very poor showing.

 

[Senenmut]

If you're going to the NORAD topic, then pick a thread

he was talking black ops but what i want to show is the power of PROMIS and that backdoor.

canadafreepress.com/2006/dastych013106.htm

Chinese Military Intelligence (PLA-2) organized their own hackers department, which [exploited] PROMIS [database systems] [in the] Los Alamos and Sandia national laboratories to steal U.S. nuclear secrets.

(the chinese had the promis software)

now if the chinese can do it, then what about sibel edmonds claims about the whole israeli / turkish ring stealing nuclear secrets from los alamos.

now this brings us to godisenergy. he is talking nanothermite. well guess what, los alamos was researching nanothermites.....so i bet money if someone could get nuclear secrets using PROMIS then getting nanothermite research would be a breeze.

and then we have this:
users.on.net/~osbornep/

William Hamilton confirms that “Early in 2003, INSLAW Counsel Gray obtained the following explanation for the Bush Administration’s stonewalling of his post-9/11 efforts to settle with INSLAW: Paul Wolfowitz, [Deputy Secretary of Defense], Scooter Libby, [Chief of Staff and National Security Advisor to Vice President Cheney], and Richard Perle, [Chairman of the Defense Policy Board], are opposed to a settlement with INSLAW for fear that any settlement could embarrass Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and complicate U.S. policy in the Middle East. Each is intimately familiar with the INSLAW case because the government gave PROMIS to Israel”.

 

[TheRedWorm]

None of that answers my questions. I know that you weren't responding to me, and that's the point. Why haven't you? I've even given you leeway to include your best supported speculation.

 

[Slayhamlet]

That's not all he bases his theory on.

"Gypsum wallboard"

Sorry, drywall does not leave sulfur behind when burned. Drywall is made from calcium sulfate. Sulfate, not sulfur.

Thermal decomposition of calcium sulfate releases sulfur oxides such as sulfur trioxide. Sulfur trioxide reacts with water to create sulfuric acid. The corrosion of the steel beams was determined to be caused by a high temperature atmosphere containing sulfur in the form of sulfuric acid vapor. All these elements (high temperatures, calcium sulfate from gypsum wallboard, and water) are known to have existed in abundance in the rubble pile.

 

[Slayhamlet]

godisenergy-

here is you blackops. this guy installed the backdoor for PROMIS. he is also cia. he gave us some warnings pre 911. listen to this one-

scribd.com/doc/496170/Terrorists-Activitiesprior-knowledge-furnished-to-the-FBI-6-months-in-advance-of-911

16. Riconosciuto further informed SA Cutri that the 37 soviet made missiles were being handles through thabet aviation in quebec city , canada, which also brokered old but serviceable aircraft (Swearingtons, dc-9's, 747s, and high performance military) to be used in drug running and future terrorist attacks in a so called "40 minute" war scenario by using aircraft as flying "missilis".

on page 110

guess what we had on 911....a few war games!!

Riconosciuto is not a reliable source.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

hey guys, was there even fly ash mixed into the concrete??

Dam builders have been using fly ash as a replacement for Portland Cement in concrete since 1935 (source: Google books link). I guess you can make an argument that dam builders and skyscraper construction companies had different criteria for concrete, but if the point of the link is that fly ash use is a recent thing, then I'd like to see some substantiation that it's indeed a recent thing for building construction specifically. Because it clearly isn't a recent thing for concrete manufacture in general.

this is from an old jref post- emails between jones and greening.
forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3279843&postcount=115

PS -- some time ago, we crushed a concrete sample obtained from the WTC rubble, used magnetic concentration, and looked for iron-rich spheres. There were NONE found.

Given that the statement is coming from Jones, I simply don't buy it. This is the same guy that tried to pass off the presence of an aromatic compound expected from plastics and rubber combustion as something indicating the presence of a thermite charge (the infamous 1,3-diphenylpropane molecule that GIE can't seem to properly wrap his head around). He's also the same person who's tried to handwave the whole idea of microspheres as indicating the presence of a high temperature compound (again, thermite) in the towers, another fraud GIE's completely fallen for. I'm not ready to trust him without further elaboration and independent verification.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Folks, I have a diversion. It's a slight derail from the OP of thermite/thermate, but since we've discussed fly ash - all right, since I've discussed it - I figured I'd stick it here. Our mods can break this off to another thread if they deem necessary. Anyway, I tripped over this link looking up stuff about fly ash in concrete:
http://www.ajc.com/health/content/shared-auto/healthnews/flup/509135.html

Dr. William N. Rom, a lung specialist at the New York University School of Medicine, treated the 38-year-old fireman, who was suffering from respiratory failure. The fireman, part of the 9/11 World Trade Center disaster response team, had been working 16-hour days for 13 days, inhaling huge amounts of dust and debris...

... "The pneumonia was most likely due to fly ash," Rom says, adding that fly ash comes from gypsum from the wallboard used in buildings...

I think the good doctor's got his details crossed; gypsum to the best of my knowledge has zilch to do with fly ash. However, wallboard itself may in fact contain that product:
http://cedb.asce.org/cgi/WWWdisplay.cgi?9201396

In this study, the effect of replacing calcined gypsum in wallboards with fly ash was studied. Three types of fly ash produced in Alberta, Canada, were used for replacement of as much as 40% of the calcined gypsum in wallboards.

Also, Googlewhacking with the terms "wallboard" and "fly ash" is returning way more hits than I figured would be possible. Could we have been overlooking a potential fly ash containing element of the WTC? Ultimately, this rounds back to the question of potential microsphere sources from the collapse of the towers.

Ps. T.A.M., if you're reading this thread, I've got two words from that article that make me cringe: Bronchoalveolar lavage. Is it just me, or is that really a hugely, insanely uncomfortable procedure? I hurt just thinking about it; thank God I've never needed it done...

 

[leftysergeant]

Most of the aluminium oxide formed the white smoke we see coming from the towers.Where on earth does that white smoke come from the rest of the smoke is black,Its clearly thermite CLEARLY!

How do you figure that? There is bound to be white smoke in an office fire where there is Class A fuel burning and water leaking from various fixtures.

 

[twinstead]

So. GodisEnergy. You appear to be in a situation where your theories are questioned by people who, at least on first glance, appear to know what the hell they're talking about. This is where, if your theory had even a modicum of rationality, you would shut them up with science.

The majority of qualified people on the planet are shills or incompetent if your theory is correct; that screams to be a put up our shut up situation.

 

[R.Mackey]

Anyway, I tripped over this link looking up stuff about fly ash in concrete:

I think the good doctor's got his details crossed; gypsum to the best of my knowledge has zilch to do with fly ash. However, wallboard itself may in fact contain that product:

Also, Googlewhacking with the terms "wallboard" and "fly ash" is returning way more hits than I figured would be possible. Could we have been overlooking a potential fly ash containing element of the WTC? Ultimately, this rounds back to the question of potential microsphere sources from the collapse of the towers.

I think you're on topic, and that's quite interesting. I didn't know that. Worked with drywall any number of times, but never suspected... Good find!

It should be pointed out, for the folks that keep seeing "thermite" in every cloud, that we've identified literally dozens of possible sources in our weekly rehashes of this long-debunked topic. Unless we eliminate them all, there is no case for thermite. Iron microspheres are not as unusual as some people apparently think.

Repeatedly the thought has crossed my mind, regarding the more "macro" of the microspheres Dr. Jones claims to have found, how many are from bearings in small machinery? Detents in rotary switches? Ballpoint pens? Keychains? This was a structure inhabited daily by tens of thousands of people. There could have been darn near anything in there. A few seemingly anomalous bits from a few pinches of dust proves absolutely nothing.

Ps. T.A.M., if you're reading this thread, I've got two words from that article that make me cringe:

Here's one more: pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.

 

[GodisEnergy]

X-EDS analysis is used in investigating thermite arson, do they rule out iron spheres as fly ash?
The other sources of spheres like you say shouldnt have the same signature as thermite,like you say steel cutting, fly ash etc etc.If we could find out wether fly ash was used in the wtc, and then see if it contained sulpur,copper,pottasium and manganese then you may have a case .

Same for 1,3 diphenylpropane, unfortunately with the source were given its impossible to tell wether 1,3 diphenylpropane has been found in office fires before.All it says is its never been found before, but wether eric swartz has tested fires before is unknown,It would be great if we could get an Arson expert on here sort this all out .

 

[leftysergeant]

X-EDS analysis is used in investigating thermite arson, do they rule out iron spheres as fly ash?

Testing for thermite is usually carried out only if there is an indication of the use of thermite in the debris left at the fire scene, or if the cause of a fire was utterly unknown. Neither is the case here.

The other sources of spheres like you say shouldnt have the same signature as thermite,like you say steel cutting, fly ash etc etc.If we could find out wether fly ash was used in the wtc, and then see if it contained sulpur,copper,pottasium and manganese then you may have a case .

The steel itself and all the drywall and wiring contained those elements. There are so many kinds of thermite, but few of them useful for the purposes of demolition, it is questionable whether any of them could be ascribed to thermite.

Same for 1,3 diphenylpropane, unfortunately with the source were given its impossible to tell wether 1,3 diphenylpropane has been found in office fires before.All it says is its never been found before, but wether eric swartz has tested fires before is unknown,It would be great if we could get an Arson expert on here sort this all out .

All manner of toxic volitile organic compounds can form in a buried fire. I cannot think of any connection this compound might have with thermite. There is ZERO carbon in most thermites, and only small amounts of it in some chemical igniters.

My background does include training in arson investigations.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

Also, Googlewhacking with the terms "wallboard" and "fly ash" is returning way more hits than I figured would be possible. Could we have been overlooking a potential fly ash containing element of the WTC? Ultimately, this rounds back to the question of potential microsphere sources from the collapse of the towers.

They also use fly ash to make concrete block, which is in turn often used to construct interior walls in commercial buildings.

I once inspected a concrete block manufacturing facility. It was next door to a Cleveland Electric Illuminating co. power plant and they directly conveyored their fly ash to the concrete block facility.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

I think you're on topic, and that's quite interesting. I didn't know that. Worked with drywall any number of times, but never suspected... Good find!

It should be pointed out, for the folks that keep seeing "thermite" in every cloud, that we've identified literally dozens of possible sources in our weekly rehashes of this long-debunked topic. Unless we eliminate them all, there is no case for thermite. Iron microspheres are not as unusual as some people apparently think.

Repeatedly the thought has crossed my mind, regarding the more "macro" of the microspheres Dr. Jones claims to have found, how many are from bearings in small machinery? Detents in rotary switches? Ballpoint pens? Keychains? This was a structure inhabited daily by tens of thousands of people. There could have been darn near anything in there. A few seemingly anomalous bits from a few pinches of dust proves absolutely nothing.

Right. I remember that thread.

We've been concentrating on concrete lately, probably because of the novelty of looking up facts about it. But in reality, when you consider the Towers as a system, the spheres probably did not originate from only one single source. Most likely, it was all the sources discussed in this forum - except for thermite, given the blatant lack of secondary effects being present - that contributed to the microsphere presence in the towers. For the more microscopic ones, I'm very much convinced a large contributor was diesel exhaust both covering the exterior, and being brought inside by the ventilation system. I mean, c'mon, think about all the vehicle exhaust those buildings were exposed to on a daily basis. All those buses, delivery trucks, etc.

For the more macro ones, you're probably right. I've not thought about those much. I figured they came from both cutting and arc welding, and IIRC, Jones never subjected those larger ones to spectroscopic analysis. I don't recall Jones doing anything with them, except mention them in passing.

It's useful to remind ourselves of something Dr. Greening brought up:

Chainsaw and other posters are correct about the multiple sources of "iron-rich microspheres". They are myriad! I have also reviewed published data on airborne particulate for New York City going back to the 1970s and the years when the Twin Towers were under construction! The deposition rate for Fe onto NYC is about 400 mg/m^2/year. Jones needs to consider this dry deposition flux before he goes off claiming all sorts of things about his samples.

Until Jones is willing to provide a complete set of analytical data for a statistically significant set of WTC microspheres, he is not going to convince a jury of his peers of anything!

Those are two excellent points. The first is one that conspiracy peddlers choose to ignore, and one that folks like me tend to forget . The Towers were continually exposed to a variety of microsphere sources for the duration they stood, and it's futile to point at any one possible contributor and say "this was the source" when the system was dynamically introducing contaminants containing such microspheres on a daily basis. The only source that can be eliminated is, again, the only one where the secondary effects have been verified to be lacking, and we all known which one that is.

Also, I keep forgetting the second part of Dr. Greening's critique there. Jones never did sample a statistically significant set of WTC material, let alone the spheres discovered in it. That's something I need to remember in the future.

Here's one more: pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.

You torture me, sir! Torture!!

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Same for 1,3 diphenylpropane, unfortunately with the source were given its impossible to tell wether 1,3 diphenylpropane has been found in office fires before.All it says is its never been found before, but wether eric swartz has tested fires before is unknown,It would be great if we could get an Arson expert on here sort this all out .

Impossible to tell whether 1,3-DPP has ever been found in office fires before? Say what?? I thought you were once a chemistry student. Do you not recall your organic semesters, where you learned that cyclic and aromatic compounds like 1,3-DPP are among the expected products of organic material combustion? And what is plastic composed of? And rubber?

The reason your Googlesearching isn't bringing up any mentions of 1,3-DPP in conjunction with office fires is the same reason you won't find a journal paper saying that water is wet. It's considered basic information that doesn't merit metion. And BTW, you were told this earlier in this thread.

 

[Senenmut]

Riconosciuto is not a reliable source.

you might want to look alittle deeper into all this than one article. information / disinformation.

heres a good video of actual news coverage of some of the events surrounding promis. this just ties into black ops. los alamos had promis software installed. they were working on nanothermites. maybe someone in the intel community stole that info and mass produced this stuff godisenergy showed us (red chip thermite).

so its not "gov made" just black ops made.....