The powerlessness of prayer

[Ron_Tomkins]

I think I tried to. It would worry me to think there are all these spirits running around without someone over them to apply some sort of restraint. So that makes me no better than the most primitive pagan.

No. No spirits running around.

There's as much evidence of spirits running around as there is evidence of a God. You're answering a different type of question.

I guess the fundamental question would be what I would feel if I thought there were no spirits. Perhaps a little helpless.

Good. I knew this was a fundamental issue.

As other people pointed out, it is actually quite curious that you feel helpless at the thought that there are no supernatural beings controlling the universe.

But that doesn't matter. My main point is: That you care.

Believe it or not, that's what sets out the main issue here.
You have not seriously tried to find out the reality of things, because deep down you know that it could lead to the inevitable conclussion that maybe there's no such thing as Gods or spirits. And that idea causes you discomfort.

You're not really interested in truth.

To make this even more crystal clear:

If we were roomates and I arrived home one day and said "I think this guy at my work doesn't brush his teeth" and this is someone you've never met, you would probably say "Oh really?".
Then at the next day I arrive home and tell you "Dude, I just found out he actually does brush his teeth". You'd probably say "Oh"

Wether he does or does not brush his teeth, it wouldn't provoke any emotion in you.
Therefore, if one day, for some crazy reason, you actually needed to know wether he actually brushed his teeth or not, just finding out the truth would be ok to you. You would not have a bias towards him brushing his teeth in opposition to him not brushing them. The idea of him brushing them wouldn't cause you joy nor sadness, nor would the other option. You would just want to find out a fact without any bias.

That's a word I suggest you do some research on: Bias.

Because you, my friend, are biased. You want to believe there are Gods and spirits. Therefore, nothing that we tell you (very likely including this unnecessarily long reply) will have much effect on you. On the other hand, ANY information that supports more belief in spirits, no matter where it comes from, will be immediately accepted by you without any prior verification. That's called Cherry Picking, another term I suggest you do some research on.

Because in life, what you will find out is that our understanding of the world is affected by what we find convenient to believe, as opposed to what actually is the truth.

And that is a very dishonest way to approach things.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

So praying to end the suffering of young children is selfish so we shouldn't expect that to have any effect should we? And of course let's ignore the fact when people pray for relief from suffering they are essentially asking 'God' to stop causing that suffering.

No, you are doing just what I said, rationalizing there must be a reason prayer has no more effect than rubbing a rabbit's foot.

I’m either not explaining myself clearly, or you’re trying too hard to stick me in a simplistic category you can conveniently dismiss.

I’m neither rationalizing nor ignoring anything. My only claim is that prayer has never been exclusively about effecting things external to oneself. That may be true of fundamentalist “prayer line” Christians, but I doubt it’s true of all Christians, and it’s certainly not true of at least some forms of Buddhism and most of Judaism.

In Judaism, I’d say maybe 45% of prayers are praising the greatness of God, 45% are thanking Him for various things, and 5% are specifically asking for things. I’ve discounted 5% because my theory is on sale this week only -- look for the red tags.

In Buddhism, “Om mani padme hum” is nothing to do with asking God for something. It’s about focusing one’s own mind by one’s own efforts to achieve one’s own goal about changing oneself.

There are many forms of prayer, and there are many reasons to pray. To oversimplify is to miss much of what’s fascinating about religion.

 

[Ethnikos]

I don't see anything in the that matches your info, Ethnikos. Care to point out which of these credible program topics you were listening to? Last night was Maybe it was earlier than that?

What is this, a Gotcha game? I think it was a caller on open lines. I think the host was Ian Punnit, who is an ordained Episcopalian minister. He could have stopped the guy and pointed out that the study had been shown to be false, instead, he let him talk about it uninterrupted for five minutes.
My point is people talk about it, all the time, apparently oblivious to any serious criticism, on different radio shows.

 

[Ethnikos]

Can you explain this mentality to me? I've never understood it. Why do you feel less helpless when you believe there's a more powerful being that can defy all the known laws of nature and strike you dead on a whim? That would make me feel vulnerable. All this universe needs is some variable that can never possibly be controlled for and that can defy all the known laws of nature.

We do not have power over the elements, at least as we are in a primitive state. It may be reassuring that there is something more powerful than ordinary nature, that has a personality that could possibly be sympathetic to the human condition.

 

[Freethinker]

It may be reassuring that there is something more powerful than ordinary nature, that has a personality that could possibly be sympathetic to the human condition.

Indeed, that's the very reason humans created the concept of gods.

 

[Ethnikos]

Because you, my friend, are biased. You want to believe there are Gods and spirits. Therefore, nothing that we tell you (very likely including this unnecessarily long reply) will have much effect on you. On the other hand, ANY information that supports more belief in spirits, no matter where it comes from, will be immediately accepted by you without any prior verification. That's called Cherry Picking, another term I suggest you do some research on.

I have never met an atheist, in the real world. Since being on the internet and going on forums, I have run across some, especially here. I did not have to cherry pick because, previously, I was not getting negative evidence that I had to decide to accept or ignore.
I cannot imagine why anyone would want to not believe in god. My guess is that some people have issues about accountability. The idea of reciprocity, meaning do not expect god to do something for you without something being given in return. I would imagine some people would rather not receive a gift, than to have to repay it somehow.
I could have a bias because of being in life or death situations, maybe more than a lot of people. Seeing death as an imminent possibility may make you biased towards believing in god.

A while back, my father was visiting. I took him and my girlfriend along to the beach to go kayaking. There was a good storm going on and the wind and waves were pretty bad. (I am not stupid. The wind was blowing on-shore and I was not going to go where my girlfriend could not see me) He was in a state of disbelief that I would even consider going out, and tried to discourage me. (I did not stay out very long because those conditions can tire you quickly.)​

My point is I do not do what is safe,(at least in the past)but what I can predict as not too likely to kill me. That can go wrong, if you do not leave a good margin for error. That is something that takes a certain amount of learning to get right, if you survive the steep learning curve. There are tons of things I did when I was younger that I would not even consider doing now.
Things may have turned out the same, whether I believed in god or not. My point is that my experience only reinforces my belief.

 

[Freethinker]

I have never met an atheist, in the real world.

Do you believe in Zeus?

 

[Ethnikos]

Do you believe in Zeus?

Is this a trick question? If I said that Zeus is not a god, then a bunch of people in the past were atheists? I think they did believe in a god concept, whether it was accurate or not. I think it is a natural part of human nature to believe in some sort of god.

 

[Marcus]

I cannot imagine why anyone would want to not believe in god.

It's quite simple, really. We want to believe in what is actually true, actually real. Choosing your beliefs on the basis of what would be cool, or what would make you feel better, is not nearly as enlightening as observing the splendid, complex, reality of the universe. It doesn't need any supernatural beings to make it fascinating.

 

[Freethinker]

Is this a trick question? If I said that Zeus is not a god, then a bunch of people in the past were atheists? I think they did believe in a god concept, whether it was accurate or not. I think it is a natural part of human nature to believe in some sort of god.

Not a trick question in any manner. Yes or no would suffice. The answer may be tricky, since it will reveal inconsistencies in your beliefs. Your personal anecdotes support the existence of Zeus just as much as they support the existence of Yaweh, Ra, Vishna and countless others.

Since there is no evidence whatsoever that any of these gods exist, why did you choose to believe in the god that you follow? Looking into all of these religions with an open mind leads to one simple conclusion: They can't all be right. As a matter of fact, for any of them to be right, almost all of them must be wrong.

You have to acknowledge the fact that two-thirds of the people in the world do not believe in the Christian god. Roughly 68% of the world's population is certain that your belief is wrong, either because they are certain that their deity is the real deal, or they think all deities are equally unbelievable.

 

[Ethnikos]

It's quite simple, really. We want to believe in what is actually true, actually real. Choosing your beliefs on the basis of what would be cool, or what would make you feel better, is not nearly as enlightening as observing the splendid, complex, reality of the universe. It doesn't need any supernatural beings to make it fascinating.

What if I thought that you have a god, named Truth? Why exclude all un-provable gods? Because they are inferior to the true god, which stands alone among a group of pretenders.

 

[Ethnikos]

Not a trick question in any manner. Yes or no would suffice... ...Roughly 68% of the world's population is certain that your belief is wrong, either because they are certain that their deity is the real deal, or they think all deities are equally unbelievable.

I am not promoting any specific religion. Let's say I am a Christian and my sister prefers the religion of her ancesters. I have no reason to think that the Spirit will pay any more attention to one of us, above the other.
If I saw a physical manifestation of a spirit being, I did not notice a cross hanging from its neck and I was not concerned about whether it agreed with my preacher.

 

[Freethinker]

I am not promoting any specific religion. Let's say I am a Christian and my sister prefers the religion of her ancesters. I have no reason to think that the Spirit will pay any more attention to one of us, above the other.
If I saw a physical manifestation of a spirit being, I did not notice a cross hanging from its neck and I was not concerned about whether it agreed with my preacher.

Is Deism close?

 

[Ethnikos]

Is Deism close?

I am not attempting to teach religion on this thread.
I went over to my Christian forum and all the threads had something to do with being saved, specifically, what to do or believe, to get saved. Boring and I will not get past the title of the thread.
I have a life right now where I think I would not be in without some sort of intervention on the part of something that is beyond our normal understanding.
I trust in whatever that is, to take care of my next life, whatever that is. If you need a nicely packaged set of beliefs to make it acceptable, there is that around. I do not think it fits this particular thread.

 

[RandFan]

I have a life right now where I think I would not be in without some sort of intervention on the part of something that is beyond our normal understanding.

That's fine as along as you can understand that your account of the intervention is trite and wholely unpersuasive to folks who have taken anytime to study skepticism and critical thinking. Given that there are folks who've seen fairys, leprechauns, UFO's, aliens, Gitchy Manitou,god, etc., etc. Your story is just a run of the mill paranormal claim. It's not interesting. It's not compelling. Parsimony would say that it is far more likely that there is a prosaic answer rather than a supernatural one.

In other words, meh~

 

[Uncayimmy]

We do not have power over the elements, at least as we are in a primitive state. It may be reassuring that there is something more powerful than ordinary nature, that has a personality that could possibly be sympathetic to the human condition.

I don't know what you mean by being powerless over the elements. After all, you and I are carrying on a discussion separated by time and distance. Certainly we have quite a bit of power at our fingertips.

I can't control a thunderstorm, but I can go inside my house for physical protection. I can rely on experts to tell me when a storm is more likely to occur. If I'm hurt, I can phone for assistance.

To my way of thinking if you throw god/spirits/paranormal into the mix, you've made everything I count on less reliable. A sentient being able to defy the laws of nature throws everything off kilter.

As for it being sympathetic, the evidence seems to indicate otherwise. If I see an old lady who needs help across the street, I don't make her beg and perform rituals for my help. What makes you think sympathy in an option.

 

[Freethinker]

I am not attempting to teach religion on this thread.
I went over to my Christian forum and all the threads had something to do with being saved, specifically, what to do or believe, to get saved. Boring and I will not get past the title of the thread.
I have a life right now where I think I would not be in without some sort of intervention on the part of something that is beyond our normal understanding.
I trust in whatever that is, to take care of my next life, whatever that is. If you need a nicely packaged set of beliefs to make it acceptable, there is that around. I do not think it fits this particular thread.

Is there an answer in there? Apparently you claim that your prayers to some vague spirits that you won't define were answered in some vague, undefined way, and you can't figure out why we won't accept that as evidence for the existence of some vague, undefined god. Maybe if you actually looked into Deism, you might have some concept of why the question was asked.

 

[Ethnikos]

...I can go inside my house for physical protection. I can rely on experts to tell me when a storm is more likely to occur.

I believe there is a subconscious, almost genetic memory in all people that is the residue of a mass trauma from word-wide cataclysm, like a pole shift or an asteroid hit. To overcome that, people have to think of something that could protect them, not just from ordinary events, but the occasional special event that normal precautions are powerless to protect us from.

 

[Ethnikos]

Is there an answer in there? Apparently you claim that your prayers to some vague spirits that you won't define were answered in some vague, undefined way, and you can't figure out why we won't accept that as evidence for the existence of some vague, undefined god. Maybe if you actually looked into Deism, you might have some concept of why the question was asked.

It is not vague to me. It is just that I think it is not necessary, to make the point, to describe what my prayers were or who I was praying to. How they were answered is not vague and happened in concrete terms. (to me)
Deism does not fit, according to Wikipedia. That belief does not allow for miracles. I believe in miracles and gave a few examples out of many that I was the subject of, or witness to.

 

[RandFan]

I believe there is a subconscious, almost genetic memory in all people that is the residue of a mass trauma from word-wide cataclysm, like a pole shift or an asteroid hit. To overcome that, people have to think of something that could protect them, not just from ordinary events, but the occasional special event that normal precautions are powerless to protect us from.

I like you Ethnikos but this seems to just be a lot of clap trap. No different from any other hodge podge of speculation. Everyone left simply to his or her devices has a different idea about what is true. Is there any reason why we should believe in leprechauns over faeries?