AA77 FDR Data, Explained

[Jonnyclueless]

"Why did L3 say p4t ideas are nut case ideas? Call them, ask them yourself. Are you afraid of the truth? "

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[bio]

There's a flaw in your logic.

The debris was identified as from flight 77, the FDR and camera tapes were released and show the plane, the flight controllers are not only allowed to speak, but some are here on this forum speaking, The DNA of the hijackers was identified.

more empty policy-talk like from Armenian Radio.

 

[Arus808]

more empty policy-talk like from Armenian Radio.

what did that quote above have to do with Armenian radio?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Drugs er bad mm-k?

 

[jaydeehess]

Fact is you're dead wrong. Call the number and try and spin that BS

That's all you guys do is run your mouth without checking facts. Make up
more junk and try to get away from calling the L3 tech support? I laugh!

You're proven incorrect in your assumption, so man up. There is NO CONNECTION
to the block erase functoin while the memory module resides in the FDR casing.

The system must write new data into the locations that already hold old data. Data is made up of one's and zero's but the system can only write a gate to 'zero' state and the only way to get a gate to a 'one' state is to set the whole block back to 'one's, an operation known as a block erasure.. Correct or incorrect? After all if the system could write either state to any gate, at any time, then there would be little use for a block erase operation in the first place.

There may be no connection from outside the FDR to the block erase function, (there would be no need to and indeed it would be better to disallow a flight crew that ability) but quite obviously the programming of the FDR controller within the confines of the 'black box' operates to erase blocks of data prior to writing data to those blocks. Otherwise after a few flights of 'overwriting' the entire memory would consist of all 'zero's and the gobblety-gook in memory after the first 'overwriting' without prior erasure would be just as useless as all 'zero's.



If I recall correctly, the fuselage and large wing sections and engines were found too.[/QUOTE]

 

[Turbofan]

The system must write new data into the locations that already hold old data.

yes

Data is made up of one's and zero's but the system can only write a gate to 'zero' state and the only way to get a gate to a 'one' state is to set the whole block back to 'one's, an operation known as a block erasure.. Correct or incorrect?

Yes, but hold that thought...

After all if the system could write either state to any gate, at any time, then there would be little use for a block erase operation in the first place.

Unless you wanted to wipe out the data, and any trace of overwritten data.

There may be no connection from outside the FDR to the block erase function, (there would be no need to and indeed it would be better to disallow a flight crew that ability) but quite obviously the programming of the FDR controller within the confines of the 'black box' operates to erase blocks of data prior to writing data to those blocks. Otherwise after a few flights of 'overwriting' the entire memory would consist of all 'zero's and the gobblety-gook in memory after the first 'overwriting' without prior erasure would be just as useless as all 'zero's.

Yes. The block is first reset, and then an entire block of data is written at once. This is not done by transients however. There is no relationship between
the data line and the erase line ( they do not cross-talk, or communicate).

Moreover, the gate requires a stable DC bias voltage for a steady duration
in order to 'reset'; this can't be achieved by a series of spikes/transients.


The overwrite procedure and erase function are two different processes.

Overwrite = using the oldest previously written data block area (not necessarily
address zero). Carried out by system controller.

Erase Function = wiping out memory. Not possible by system.

 

[TjW]

I'm sorry, Turbofan. The more you post, the more apparent it becomes that you have no idea what you're talking about.

What do you suppose would be the effect on the written data if a reset of the next block to be overwritten was prevented by a series of transients? Wouldn't the written data be corrupted by the previously existing data?

It doesn't matter, because no one is claiming that the entire memory was erased, but what would the practical differences be between an all memory erase, and a series of block resets?

 

[Turbofan]

I'm sorry, Turbofan. The more you post, the more apparent it becomes that you have no idea what you're talking about.

What do you suppose would be the effect on the written data if a reset of the next block to be overwritten was prevented by a series of transients? Wouldn't the written data be corrupted by the previously existing data?

It doesn't matter, because no one is claiming that the entire memory was erased, but what would the practical differences be between an all memory erase, and a series of block resets?

I'm sorry, but do you even know what this reply is pertaining to?

All I see from you is speculation, and "what if".

To answer your question, you would lose more than a few seconds of data.

Therefore your theory does not fit.

 

[WildCat]

I'm sorry, but do you even know what this reply is pertaining to?

All I see from you is speculation, and "what if".

To answer your question, you would lose more than a few seconds of data.

Therefore your theory does not fit.

And yet, there's not a single actual FDR expert in the entire world who will corroborate the findings of the pretend FDR experts at PffffT.

This, of course, doesn't bother you at all.

Why don't you start another thread at a different engineering forum? We could all use another leg-slapping belly laugh.

 

[Turbofan]

Right after you and your friends come up with a decent theory to explain
the 'missing seconds' as you call it...

 

[twinstead]

It bears repeating, Turbofan--doesn't it strike you as odd the lack of support among real FDR and aviation experts?

 

[Turbofan]

It bears repeating, Turbofan--doesn't it strike you as odd the lack of support among real FDR and aviation experts?

Your definition of expert is a little different than most people. We have enough
expertise and experience on our side to decode a raw file and get frame
layouts for FDR data.

That should tell you all something.

If it doesn't, I can't help you. It's too bad that anyone that questions the
official theory is a nut case to you. These nut cases are still flying aircraft
and working in high level positions. Hmmm...

 

[dtugg]

oops

 

[nicepants]

Right after you and your friends come up with a decent theory to explain
the 'missing seconds' as you call it...

The impact into a building at 500+ mph may have had something to do with that. I am not aware of any FDR experts who are bothered by the missing data.....are you?

 

[WildCat]

Your definition of expert is a little different than most people. We have enough
expertise and experience on our side to decode a raw file and get frame
layouts for FDR data.

That should tell you all something.

It certainly does. It tells me you guys know just enough to get in way over your heads.

 

[TjW]

I'm sorry, but do you even know what this reply is pertaining to?

All I see from you is speculation, and "what if".

To answer your question, you would lose more than a few seconds of data.

Therefore your theory does not fit.

I didn't speculate about anything. I merely asked your opinion.
I'm satisfied to let the quality of your answer speak for itself.

 

[nicepants]

Nicepants, it's better if you let members around here with some technical
background handle the FDR electronics and stuff.

We're pages ahead of you, and you still can't understand that we're debating
the particulars about loss of data from hitting a wall (what is and what is not
possible).

TjW should do the same. Unless he understands that losing a full block of
data is more than just a few seconds worth.

My question required no technical background:

I am not aware of any FDR experts who are bothered by the missing data.....are you?

ETA:

When you or anyone here can go live with Rob and
his FDR experts, I'll stand corrected.

Why would anyone here want to live with Rob?

 

[jaydeehess]

Unless you wanted to wipe out the data, and any trace of overwritten data.

What you mean by "overwritten data" is unclear to me. The only way to record valid data to the block is to first erase(reset to all one's)the entire block. "Overwriting' data already in the block without first doing the reset will result in nonsense being recorded as it will be a mix of all the zero's in the original data and the zero's from the new data.

Yes. The block is first reset, and then an entire block of data is written at once. This is not done by transients however. There is no relationship between
the data line and the erase line ( they do not cross-talk, or communicate).

Although the only way to reset a memory location is to reset the entire block in which it reseides, flash memory can write to individual cells. I see no reason why the designers would want to have an entire block's data held in a buffer in order to write an entire block at once.It would seem counterproductive in the application of an FDR.

Moreover, the gate requires a stable DC bias voltage for a steady duration
in order to 'reset'; this can't be achieved by a series of spikes/transients.

That is the design, that is the way things are supposed to work, and the designers did as much as possible to mitigate the effects of non-standard signals and violent forces on the FDR but any engineer will tell you that things never, ever work exactly as designed when things are at their worst.

The overwrite procedure and erase function are two different processes

Overwrite = using the oldest previously written data block area (not necessarily
address zero). Carried out by system controller.

Erase Function = wiping out memory. Not possible by system.

ANY memory block on the chip will have to be erased/reset beforte ANY new data can be written to that block. If this particular chip has a whole chip reset then that is obviously not what anyone was ever talking about.

 

[jaydeehess]

We have FDR experts on our side. The same ones that helped us decode
the raw file, obtain frame layouts and many other things. Much more than
anyone here has ever done. Our experts have found errors with the work
presented by the NTSB "experts".

Your group has absolutly no support among any recognized FDR expert organization, including L3, the manufacturer of the FDR in question.

The only 'experts' that do support your group are self taught persons within your group.

Your group steadfastly refuses to write up a purely technical paper outlining the work you have already done showing that the FDR that the NTSB had could not have been on a flight that impacted the Pentagon.

Your group steadfastly refuses to write that paper and submit it with no political or accusatory statements attached, to the manufacturer of the FDR, the pilot's unions, ICAO, the FBI, or the NTSB, nor any publication that would have a readership that would be interested in technical aspects of aviation or aviation safety.

Your group refuses to offer any reasoning as to why you will not do this, insteda prefering to argue incessently on the internet with persons you claim have tot enough technical expertise to have a vaild opinion.

I'll wait for hell to freeze over before waiting for you to provide any examples
of FDR loss as explained...

Other examples of data loss in FDR's were given. The fact that there are few, if any , instances in which an aircraft with no prior structural or systems problems has crashed at high velocity into a concrete structure is going to limit the feild of historical records you ask for.

I have no doubt that if such crash does exist and it was shown to you and that there was conclusively 2 seconds of missing data, that you would be claiming that no more than 2 seconds of data can go missing.

 

[beachnut]

We have FDR experts on our side.


The same ones that helped us decode the raw file, obtain frame layouts and many other things.

Much more than anyone here has ever done. Our experts have found errors with the work presented by the NTSB "experts".

I'll wait for hell to freeze over before waiting for you to provide any examples of FDR loss as explained...

Name your FDR expert from industry, from an Airline, from the NTSB, from a real company. Name one! Can't you have zero support on your failed FDR ideas. Oops, seconds are missing from many events involving FDRs. Move those goalposts! Cherry pick your junk ideas to support you fantasy. You have no experts, they have not proven anything about 9/11.

Your decoders failed to decode the last second that the NTSB did. Your decoders failed to decode or set the time on each second. Your decode team failed to decode seconds the NTSB did. Your decoder team places DME in each second when it should only be in every 4 seconds. Is this a reason you don't understand DME resolution and accuracy?

Your experts have not found one error in the FDR from the NTSB. Do you always make up lies and false information? You talk and spew hearsay and do not present evidence, you present TALK; false talk.

FDRs have lost data! FACT! You failed to show 77's FDR can't!

Why does L3 say your p4t ideas on 9/11 are pure junk? Have you called them! No, p4t calls are not taken at L3 due to your paranoid conspiracy cult status as a group with nut case ideas. What will L3 go on record with on your flawed nut case ideas on 9/11?

... can go live with Rob and his FDR experts, I'll stand corrected.

Until then, shut up and let's see your damn proof of this 'FDR loss' you ladies keep yappin' about.

Make me a believer...

You want people to go live with an anti-government paranoid fantasy believer and terrorist apologist, who has threaten to kill people who understand 9/11 and will not fall for his junk? What does this mean?

Us ladies are scared now! He have to shut up and live with Balsamo! ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (you miss 31 Oct?)

You believe in lies; you have no reason to study evidence and understand reality. You failed to understand the FDR, you are blindly following someone who gets you to tell the lies he implies.
You will be upset when you suddenly wake up from ignorance and clearly see reality.

Was the ladies stuff your best attempt at insulting people? Indicative of your support of your lie on 77 not hitting the Pentagon. How did the FDR get into the Pentagon? Any clue?

Please list your NTSB errors found by your experts. I think you mistake your p4t paranoid anti-government fugitives from logic as experts.