Joe the Liar

[Malerin]

Lost in all the hoopla over Joe (and Obama's "spread the wealth" comment), is the fact that Joe is a liar. He introduces himself to Obama the following way:

"I'm getting ready to buy a company...makes $250, $270, $280 thousand a year. Your tax plan..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA

Not "I may buy a company..." or "What happens if I buy a company..." or even "When (and if) I get my act together, someday I may own a profitable small business...".

As we know, Joe is nowhere close to buying a company. He makes around $40,000 as an unlicensed plumber, doesn't own a driver's license, and has a lien against him from the state of Ohio for unpaid taxes. Also, the company he's hankering after doesn't make anywhere near $250,000. That's it's net worth. It's actual revenue is around $100,000. http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/10/16/the-real-meaning-of-joe-the-plumber.aspx

I will submit, as a rule of thumb, that if a person doesn't know the difference between net worth and revenue, cannot (or will not) pay their STATE taxes, and has no license to actually do the blue-collar job they're doing (much less run a company of workers like themselves), they are not in a position to buy a used Buick, much less a multi-hundred thousand dollar company.

I think I would feel a little more sorry for Joe and his median-savaging if he'd actually asked an HONEST question in the first place.

 

[DavidJames]

Really didn't need another thread, but two points.

1) A question about how Obama's plan will impact a hypothetical scenario is legitimate.

2) Joe deserves everything he has and will get due to your comments and the fact that McCain has mad Joe the centerpiece of his economic strategy.

If Joe doesn't like the publicity, as I said before he should shut up and ask his new best friend to shut up as well.

 

[Meadmaker]

And yet, following the debate, Zogby reports that Obama's poll lead has shrunk. It's down to three points today. What happened? Well, the only thing to come out of the debate was "Joe the Plumber". So what could it have been to sway the polls?

Personally, I think it is that ordinary people are upset with the coverage of Joe the Plumber. Although Obama hasn't done anything distasteful regarding Joe, his supporters have. I think commentary such as found in the OP is a huge turnoff. If it were just in the OP of an obscure politics forum, it would make no difference, but similar comments have been heard on Air America, and slightly toned down versions on NPR. I think commentary calling plumbers liars, idiots, and the like is just not likely to influence the voters in a positive way, and Obama will, unfortunately, be judged by the company he keeps.

I think Obama supporters would be wise to just lay off Joe. He's really just meant as a symbol, anyway.

 

[geni]

I think Obama supporters would be wise to just lay off Joe. He's really just meant as a symbol, anyway.

The problem is he is a symbol of something that doesn't really exist.

 

[Malerin]

I think commentary calling plumbers liars, idiots, and the like is just not likely to influence the voters in a positive way, and Obama will, unfortunately, be judged by the company he keeps.

I think Obama supporters would be wise to just lay off Joe. He's really just meant as a symbol, anyway.

You miss the point. Nobody's calling plumbers liars. People are calling THIS GUY a liar. If Joe the Plumber lied, does that not make him a liar?

I don't know if you can look at the polls and point to any one thing that's causing their movement. As Pookster points out: "TIPP tracking has had Obama increasing his lead all week. Gallup and Rasmussen show an increase in Obama's lead today. Hotline shows no change in a 7 point lead."

It's possible that shining the spotlight on Plumber Joe has HELPED Obama in the polls. Depends on which polls you go with.

 

[BenBurch]

There is a thing in polls called a MOE. Sometimes, by random chance, a group of polls come in near their positive MOE, sometimes near their negative MOE, and so a point or two of swing might have no real significance. Getting people to express their opinions is a difficult task and one that can be subject to many biases. For example, what if most Obama supporters happened also to be Baseball fans? Call them during a playoff game and they are not likely to want to talk to you. That would lead to a good day for McCain.

So, I plan to not worry. Colin Powell, and, more significant, the Chicago Tribune have endorsed in the last couple of days, and Obama has a half-hour TV special on all major networks next week that McCain, who is nearly broke now, cannot possibly match. He is going to win, it is just a matter of how easily and how much Repub election fraud we will have to counter, so we have to keep working to move this into landslide country.

 

[DavidJames]

And yet, following the debate, Zogby reports that Obama's poll lead has shrunk. It's down to three points today. What happened? Well, the only thing to come out of the debate was "Joe the Plumber". So what could it have been to sway the polls?

I pointed out that yesterday. It may, as Ben suggests been a transitory thing, but people eat that personal anecdote stuff up, facts be damn.

Republicans are complaining about the (damn liberal) media attacking Joe and not his question. Well, I think the McCain bump is exactly because the (damn liberal) is doing that and it's exactly why McCain and his supporters keep pumping the story.

 

[Puppycow]

And yet, following the debate, Zogby reports that Obama's poll lead has shrunk. It's down to three points today. What happened? Well, the only thing to come out of the debate was "Joe the Plumber". So what could it have been to sway the polls?

Probably just statistical noise. Polls have margins of error as well as sampling errors. I think it's a mistake to overdetermine "the" reason why a poll fluctuates from one day to the next. A significant long term change in all the polls is another matter.

 

[SnuggleSmacks]

Why would it be assumed that the negative publicity regarding Joe came from the Obama campaign? Most of it was dug up by the ("damn liberal") media, which may be biased, but they are not part of the Obama campaign.

I came away from the whole thing with a much more negative view of the McCain campaign...they either screwed this poor guy by bringing media attention to his personal life, causing his tax situation and possible sanctions by the city of Toledo for plumbing without a license to be common knowledge, or else he was a plant, which is one theory supported by his ties to the Keatings.

Either way, Joe screwed himself, and McCain brought media attention to it and made it worse.

 

[leftysergeant]

Maybe the exposure in the media will sink in, people will realize what a moron Joe is for buying the GOP talking points that Obama will tax working people into oblivion and take it as another example of McCain going off half-cocked. (As if Palin weren't proof enough of that.)

Maybe it will also lead more to believe that maybe McCain just pulled the Ayers connection out of his Depends, too.

 

[Meadmaker]

You miss the point. Nobody's calling plumbers liars. People are calling THIS GUY a liar. If Joe the Plumber lied, does that not make him a liar?

You miss the point, and you miss it by a long mile.

It's really annoying to listen to Air America and hear them trash the reputation of some ordinary citizen. It's really annoying to listen to people discuss the back taxes of some guy from Toledo. It sounds mean spirited and petty, and people don't like it.

Fortunately, Obama himself hasn't fallen into that trap. I haven't heard anything at all negative about Joe the Plumber from the campaign. Unfortunately, his supporters aren't as savvy as he is, and more unfortunately, at least in this case, people do judge a candidate partly by the actions of those who support him.

Has it actually affected the poll numbers? No one can say. However, it can't have done any good. Listening to talk radio hosts babble about conspiracy theories relating Joe the Plumber to Charles Keating just makes most people turn it off, and the negative feelings people have toward those people will, in part, carry over to the candidate they support. This is a losing "issue".

 

[Upchurch]

The problem with this whole 'Joe the Plumber' thing is that it is pretty much dishonest at every level. Even as a hypothetical scenario of a middle class small businessman, it is in no way realistic. The myth of Joe the Plumber is one of a very successful businessman who is a moron when it comes to running a business.

The press is questioning the validity of that straw man and it is being perceived as attacking 'everyman Joe'.

What then is the proper method of exposing this fallacy?

 

[mhaze]

Lost in all the hoopla over Joe (and Obama's "spread the wealth" comment), is the fact that Joe is a liar....

Selective quoting to make a partisian point only makes you the liar.

From no less than the Clinton News Network(CNN):

In an interview afterward with WTOL, Wurzelbacher acknowledged that he'd still like to eventually buy the plumbing company he works for but that he wouldn't yet be hit by higher taxes.

"I want to set the record straight: Currently I would not fall into Barack Obama's $250,000-plus," he said. "But if I'm lucky in business and taxes don't go up then maybe I can grow the business and be in that tax bracket - well, let me rephrase it. Hopefully, that tax won't be there."


​

 

[DavidJames]

Selective quoting to make a partisian point only makes you the liar.

From no less than the Clinton News Network(CNN):

In an interview afterward with WTOL, Wurzelbacher acknowledged that he'd still like to eventually buy the plumbing company he works for but that he wouldn't yet be hit by higher taxes.

"I want to set the record straight: Currently I would not fall into Barack Obama's $250,000-plus," he said. "But if I'm lucky in business and taxes don't go up then maybe I can grow the business and be in that tax bracket - well, let me rephrase it. Hopefully, that tax won't be there."​

Did you read what you posted? How could Malerin be been guilty of selective quoting when the quote you posted was made in a later interview. Maybe you misunderstood the OP? Try again.

 

[Tricky]

It looks like once again, McCain isn't doing a good job of screening the people he is going to tap to try to get elected. If you are going to bring up a real person as a symbol of your campaign, then perhaps you ought to try to find out a little about that real person. If you are going to nominate someone for Vice President, perhaps you ought to find out if that person has pending investigations into their ethics hanging over them.

I'm not sure what would be the worse excuse, laziness or incompetence.

 

[Puppycow]

Has it actually affected the poll numbers? No one can say. However, it can't have done any good. Listening to talk radio hosts babble about conspiracy theories relating Joe the Plumber to Charles Keating just makes most people turn it off, and the negative feelings people have toward those people will, in part, carry over to the candidate they support. This is a losing "issue".

It is annoying when some people come up with stupid red herrings (who he is related to is irrelevant). But it is legitimate to ask if Joe's story is true. Clarly it was not. His point is moot because it is based on a false premise. And his suggestion that Obama's tax plan would somehow prevent him from achieving The American Dream is risible.

 

[mhaze]

Did you read what you posted? How could Malerin be been guilty of selective quoting when the quote you posted was made in a later interview. Maybe you misunderstood the OP? Try again.

Because when someone says "I want to set the record straight" it is a correction to the original statement and/or a correction to misinterpretations of the original statement. It is not an admission of lying, but an attempt to clarify things (which may have gotten out of hand). Which is good.

Given that reality, then when someone goes back to look at what "Joe said', and derives conclusions from statement A1 instead of A1 and A1.1, that is intentional misrepresentation of the position of Joe.

Hence my statement that Malerin was lying (by omission). Come to think of it though, he could have just been repeating some talking point he heard and have not done any research to check the facts. In that case he would be repeating a lie, not deliberately lying.

Joe the Plumber has been pretty straight up about his aspirations to improve his life and that there is no cause to smear him.

 

[DavidJames]

Because when someone says "I want to set the record straight" it is a correction to the original statement and/or a correction to misinterpretations of the original statement. It is not an admission of lying, but an attempt to clarify things (which may have gotten out of hand). Which is good.

Given that reality, then when someone goes back to look at what "Joe said', and derives conclusions from statement A1 instead of A1 and A1.1, that is intentional misrepresentation of the position of Joe.

Hence my statement that Malerin was lying (by omission). Come to think of it though, he could have just been repeating some talking point he heard and have not done any research to check the facts. In that case he would be repeating a lie, not deliberately lying.

Joe the Plumber has been pretty straight up about his aspirations to improve his life and that there is no cause to smear him.

Ok, sure, whatever.

Joe was not getting ready to buy that company
That company does not make $250,000/year

That was the context of the OP

But please, don't let the words get in the way of what you believe.

 

[corplinx]

I think what everyone misses, is that who Joe the plumber really is doesn't matter. What mattered was Obama's answer. It would have been just another day on the campaign trail if Obama hadn't given a very marxist answer to him.

So now we're out to demonize a guy who asked a fair question because he got a bad answer.

Less brown shirts plz.

 

[fuelair]

Maybe the exposure in the media will sink in, people will realize what a moron Joe is for buying the GOP talking points that Obama will tax working people into oblivion and take it as another example of McCain going off half-cocked. (As if Palin weren't proof enough of that.)

Maybe it will also lead more to believe that maybe McCain just pulled the Ayers connection out of his Depends, too.

Possibly McCain went off full-cocked on the Palin thing.