Anthopogenic Global Warming Myth or Real ?

Yes, yes, its warming here, cooling there just as it always has.

If you're referring to seasonal changes you're right. Summer is warmer than winter outside the tropics. Over the longer term (decades) the world is warming everywhere in a way that it hasn't done before.

However, as you have hung your hat on the Arctic, lets concentrate there. Despite all the news hype and "scientists" warning of an ice free arctic even this year ...

They did? That news must have been suppressed where I live because these predictions of an ice-free Arctic this year are new to me. Do you recall where you heard them?

what is happening there now? As you like to say, stop clinging to the past.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1032348ee3d9d666ed.jpg

Days are getting shorter in the Arctic and the Sun is lower in the sky, so the Arctic is cooling and sea-ice is forming. It happens every year about this time; it's to do with Earth's axial tilt with respect to its orbital plane.

I don't recall what evidence you've given that rising CO2 levels as being the cause of Arctic ice melt, particularly 2007. You wouldn't happen to have it?

For ice to melt, heat has to be introduced from somewhere. Since the Arctic has lost a great deal of ice over the last few decades it must have accumulated a great deal of heat. The only viable explanation for that is AGW (and in fact the loss of Arctic ice was predicted by AGW). 2007 may not have seen a particularly large loss of ice volume but it was preconditioned for a large ice extent response to particular weather conditions.

Met O has it down; when they blow a forecast, update the models to match reality, claim they are now correct and create new predictions so policy makers can make decisions based on them.

That's a damn' lie.

I've already stated several times Met O is relying on a strong SC24. Read their statements.

I have, and they're not.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2007/pr20070810.html
That sure sounds like they are assuming something about the sun.

They'll be assuming it comes up every day. Their model incorporates the solar cycle because it's intended for projections on that timescale, but it treats the next solar cycle as being just like any other. Which is to say, not very influential.

Now, if SC24 does not meet the projected changes, which if you'd bother checking was it would be off the charts, then that means they have an out if it fails to warm as predicted.

I followed this story back in 2007, when the short-term projection by a team of modellers at the Met Office was first announced ("Strap me," I thought, "That's bold. These are young scientists whose careers stretch way ahead of 2014, and they're putting their names to this. Big cojones.")

No assumptions about the upcoming solar cycle are made other than it will be normal. If you check you'll find this is true.

Well, it is off charts, but in the wrong direction. You say there is no solar connection, I say there is a strong connection.

I say there's a weak connection. Since the solar cycle was identified people have been searching for a climate signal, and it's been a long history of failure. Recent claims to have found such a signal have yet to stand the test of time. If there were a strong connection the signal would have been found long ago. There have been 23 solar cycles to find it in, after all, and even without reference to solar cycle, a regular 10-11 year climate cycle would be part of farmers' lore from way back - but it isn't.

Correlation is not causation, however causation must have correlation.

Quite. That's where the search for the solar cycle's climate signal has always fallen down. There's an hypothesised causation, but no obvious correlation.

You discount ENSO ...

Far from discounting ENSO I'm looking forward to the next sustained El Nino, which will put '98 in deep shade. Not because I enjoy an El Nino but because you guys will have to explain it away.

... yet it is very easy to see PDO shifts are dominated by ENSO events. During warm cycles, El Nino dominates. During cold cycles, La Nina does. Now that NASA has announced the PDO has switched to the negative phase, one should expect fewer El Nino events. Maybe you missed it:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1032348ead44a52c31.gif

Expect away. A sustained El Nino will occur in the next two-to-seven years; I suggest you start preparing your excuses.

I'm not too concerned about the 'big bad analogue' model. I don't drive a model T Ford or use punch cards for an 9600 baud IBM teletype either.

That's a model example of non sequitur.
 
PositiveProofofGlobalWarming.jpg
 
Quote David Rodale:
... yet it is very easy to see PDO shifts are dominated by ENSO events. During warm cycles, El Nino dominates. During cold cycles, La Nina does. Now that NASA has announced the PDO has switched to the negative phase, one should expect fewer El Nino events. Maybe you missed it:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting...ad44a52c31.gif


Expect away. A sustained El Nino will occur in the next two-to-seven years; I suggest you start preparing your excuses.

That's a model example of non sequitur.
Why should anyone care that "you expect" an improbable event-a substained El Nino during the PDO cold phase?

Why would it be that anyone would to start preparing excuses because of whatever "you expect"?

Where and when due to known bias effects, double blind studies are called for, instead what should be discussed in CapelDodger World is what "Capeldodger expects".
 
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Why should anyone care that "you expect" an improbable event-a substained El Nino during the PDO cold phase?

People might remember after the event. A sustained El Nino in the next two-to-seven years is so probable you'll gag on it. Mark my words.

Why would it be that anyone would to start preparing excuses because of whatever "you expect"?

All that you and yours have ever been doing is make excuses for the stuff that's happened as predicted by the other side (us). Your job gets harder all the time, and if you don't plan for what will happen you'll be overwhelmed.

Where and when due to known bias effects, double blind studies are called for, instead what should be discussed in CapelDodger World is what "Capeldodger expects".

The world will do its own thing, in its big bad analogue way. Watch and weep as things turn out as I've explicitly predicted.

You've predicted that an event is "improbable", which is pretty wet. You've expanded that David Rodale's "Now that NASA has announced the PDO has switched to the negative phase, one should expect fewer El Nino events". Do let us know how it works out for you.

The PDO relation is purely statistical, so you're taking no account of the recent La Nina which pinched off the last El Nino in 2006-7. There will be a reckoning, and it will happen in two-to-seven years for simple physical reasons.
 
Originally Posted by mhaze
Why should anyone care that "you expect" an improbable event-a substained El Nino during the PDO cold phase?
People might remember after the event. A sustained El Nino in the next two-to-seven years is so probable you'll gag on it. Mark my words.

Guessing and prophesizing weather is soooo anti scientific.
 
Here's more color and detail of news that expands upon my earlier post in this thread citing news of an exceptionally cold Alaskan summer this year. As usual, it is very doubtful that this will reach the national mass market news media and will be kept localized and suppressed. I have already proven this claim, but we can be sure that CapelDodger will immediately invent some sort of conspiracy theory, probably involving Rupert Murdoch as the boogeyman.

This actually is one of the few well balanced GW articles that I have read. Refreshing!

http://www.adn.com/news/environment/story/555283.html
 
Here's more color and detail of news that expands upon my earlier post in this thread citing news of an exceptionally cold Alaskan summer this year. As usual, it is very doubtful that this will reach the national mass market news media and will be kept localized and suppressed. I have already proven this claim, but we can be sure that CapelDodger will immediately invent some sort of conspiracy theory, probably involving Rupert Murdoch as the boogeyman.

This actually is one of the few well balanced GW articles that I have read. Refreshing!

http://www.adn.com/news/environment/story/555283.html
Good article, but there are others. None by the BBC will be balanced of course.

Other interesting places-

www.icecap.us
www.climateaudit.org
http://www.climate-skeptic.com/
accuweather.com gw blog

Most reporters, it is virtually an impossibility for them to cover "global warming" conceptually let alone unbiased, so a easy relapse for the lazy reporter is to just copy blurbs off the latest Env. Def. League or Greenpeace press release.
 
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Here's more color and detail of news that expands upon my earlier post in this thread citing news of an exceptionally cold Alaskan summer this year. As usual, it is very doubtful that this will reach the national mass market news media and will be kept localized and suppressed. I have already proven this claim, but we can be sure that CapelDodger will immediately invent some sort of conspiracy theory, probably involving Rupert Murdoch as the boogeyman.
So who is doing the localizing and suppressing, and how?

This actually is one of the few well balanced GW articles that I have read. Refreshing!

http://www.adn.com/news/environment/story/555283.html
I don't know about "one of the few" but I agree: an excellent article that gives the relevant information.
 
Here's more color and detail of news that expands upon my earlier post in this thread citing news of an exceptionally cold Alaskan summer this year. As usual, it is very doubtful that this will reach the national mass market news media and will be kept localized and suppressed. I have already proven this claim, but we can be sure that CapelDodger will immediately invent some sort of conspiracy theory, probably involving Rupert Murdoch as the boogeyman.

This actually is one of the few well balanced GW articles that I have read. Refreshing!

http://www.adn.com/news/environment/story/555283.html


Oh my, we had a cold spring and a cool summer as well, better roll out the Vast Buddhist Conspiracy.

Do you know the difference between weather and climate?

We have not had snowy cold winters in succession for quite a while, could be a twenty year cycle on it's way to a thirty year one, could be a shift in climate. And in the anamaloy year 88 we had a very short winter that ended in March and became summer by May.
 
Here's more color and detail of news that expands upon my earlier post in this thread citing news of an exceptionally cold Alaskan summer this year. As usual, it is very doubtful that this will reach the national mass market news media and will be kept localized and suppressed. I have already proven this claim, but we can be sure that CapelDodger will immediately invent some sort of conspiracy theory, probably involving Rupert Murdoch as the boogeyman.

This actually is one of the few well balanced GW articles that I have read. Refreshing!

http://www.adn.com/news/environment/story/555283.html
That was an interesting read.

BTW, did you read all the way to the end of the article?
 
As usual, it is very doubtful that this will reach the national mass market news media and will be kept localized and suppressed. I have already proven this claim, but we can be sure that CapelDodger will immediately invent some sort of conspiracy theory, probably involving Rupert Murdoch as the boogeyman.

That's weird. In the first sentence you claim that weather news is being suppressed by national media; in the second you suggest that I am the one likely to invent a conspiracy theory. How does that work :confused:?

You certainly haven't proven your conspiracy, all you've done is make the bizarre claim that, at the height of a US Presidential Election coinciding with financial and economic crises of epic proportions and wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, "Cool Summer in Alaska" not making the national news is portentous.

This actually is one of the few well balanced GW articles that I have read. Refreshing!

http://www.adn.com/news/environment/story/555283.html

"As strange it might seem, Alaska's glaciers could appear to be shrinking for some time while secretly growing. Molnia said there are a few glaciers in the state now where constant snow accumulations at higher elevations are causing them to thicken even as their lower reaches follow the pattern of retreat fueled by the global warming of recent decades."

No surprises there.
 
Guessing and prophesizing weather is soooo anti scientific.

That's the spirit! Prepare your defences in advance. When my reasoned prediction is confirmed you can claim it was just a " lucky guess".

(I'm not predicting weather, of course, I'm predicting a sustained El Nino in the next two-to-seven years.)
 
So who is doing the localizing and suppressing, and how?

Good question. And I would add : "Why?".

I'm not convinced that Fox News hasn't covered the "Cool Summer in Alaska" story, given their record of "balanced" coverage of AGW. In a quieter news-environment it would be right up their street.
 
Good question. And I would add : "Why?".
Indeed. How? Who? Why? Where? When?

I'm not convinced that Fox News hasn't covered the "Cool Summer in Alaska" story, given their record of "balanced" coverage of AGW. In a quieter news-environment it would be right up their street.
It wouldn't matter in this context would it? ;)
 
That's the spirit! Prepare your defences in advance. When my reasoned prediction is confirmed you can claim it was just a " lucky guess".

(I'm not predicting weather, of course, I'm predicting a sustained El Nino in the next two-to-seven years.)
Yep, you are just conjuring weather from the bubbles in the beer. And I still can't fathom why you'd think anyone would care about yer prophesies.

This is a forum about science.
 
Nah. British wingnuts define the Beeb as being commy/lefty/greeny/pinko too, so it's not a nationality thing: it's a "wing" thing.

The Beeb is just as maligned by the opposite British wingnuts, as Conservative/Establishment/Anti-union, etc. mhaze and the like don't pick up on that.

I'd like an answer from mhaze, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
 
Yep, you are just conjuring weather from the bubbles in the beer.

Repeating what this is a "response" to :

"I'm not predicting weather, of course, I'm predicting a sustained El Nino in the next two-to-seven years."

So, nope, I'm not conjuring weather at all.

And I still can't fathom why you'd think anyone would care about yer prophesies.

Why do you think anybody's interested in what you can't fathom? Anything you can fathom would be a revelation, and so of some passing interest.

This is a forum about science.

Yet here you are. Don't you find that weird? I do, and I doubt I'm alone in that opinion.
 

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