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Natal'ya Votonikova - Man in a Box
- Thread starter gtc
- Start date
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
remirol
Senior Wrangler
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 8,089
I believe I'd walk around the warehouse saying, in Russian, "Tap the side of the box very gently and I'll pay you $500,000."
Whole bunch of misdirection and tomfoolery here, honestly. If the other boxes may not contain humans, I can't see a very good way to ensure the obvious techniques to find said human don't work -- ie. body heat, breathing, small noises inside. The inherent variable of "things a living, russian-speaking human might involuntarily do" is just too great here.
My suggestion would be to allow several volunteers to search for the Russian at the same time as the claimant, using their non-paranormal powers like hearing or smelling. Should a percentage of these claimants identify the correct box that is significantly higher than suggested by chance alone, the test would be "unsuccessful", even if the claimant does find the right box too.
I see no reason for coffin-like boxes, unless of course it is specified clearly in the protocol. In a warehouse environment, wooden boxes of sufficient size that a grown-up Russian-speaking man can sit comfortably on a chair inside, and with reasonable air vents on top, would probably be sufficient. Some precautions should be made to stop the test if the chair topples, or if the man get a coughing fit.
It is probably right that test would be more expensive than most tests, but since any expenses are covered by Ms Vorotnikova, this should not pose a particular problem.
It is probably right that test would be more expensive than most tests, but since any expenses are covered by Ms Vorotnikova, this should not pose a particular problem.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
Expense shouldn't be a problem anyway, since the claimant has obviously done this demonstration multiple times to test herself. She will have already had access to a warehouse and multiple boxes with a Russian speaking man inside one of them. We just need to hear some details from her about how she set it up before.
Since I assume she will not agree to reasonable controls and precautions (headphones, masking of odor, etc.) and since the man in the box won't be tied up, gagged or drugged, there seems to be no ground for a proper test.
What did the academic witness have to say in this case?
Doubt
Philosopher
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2002
- Messages
- 8,106
At some point it may even be necessary to define what she means by a Russian speaking man.
I would assume she wants a person who's native language is Russian.
I know we're just supposed to accept the claim and try to work out how to test it, but this really does sound extremely suspicious. If she can only find a Russian speaking man, why can't there be humans in the other boxes? Either she can find any human and the presence of others would confuse her, in which case stipulating a Russian speaker is unecessary, or she can't find other humans, in which case she has no grounds to exclude them. The only possible reason I can think of for insisting on a test like this is that it is an attempt at a scam.
If she refuses to change these conditions, I don't see how a test is possible since, assuming she will be allowed near the boxes, there's really no way to eliminate communication between them, whether accidental or on purpose.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
That would probably provide an out for her to claim that they were messing up the quantum psychic energy fields or something. Or that the volunteers were also somehow paranormally able to perceive the man in the box.
How about she just has to remain 30 feet away from the boxes?
You are certainly right about the possible outs this may provide. On the other hand, both sides would have to agree on the protocol.
Marcus
Illuminator
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
- Messages
- 3,857
Yes, preventing any information from escaping such a box, such as sound, vibration, movement, or heat, would be so difficult as to render the test impractical.
CriticalThanking
Designated Hitter
Is there any value in having some of the trials (randomly) be ones with no one in the box?
CT
CT
I don't think so. The actual trials themselves would be extremely simple. All you need is a box with a person she can find, and some other boxes without. If she can find the person reliably enough (which will depend on her claim of accuracy and the odds the JREF want her to beat), then she wins.
The only problem is ensuring that she can't find the person by normal means. Messing around with the number of trials or boxes, or randomising the contents and things like that don't address that problem at all. There are only really two ways to address it:
Firstly, you can make sure that any signs that there is a person in the box are present in all the boxes - by having people in them. This would be easy in terms of the test, but more difficult in needing several people willing to be shut in boxes and lie still and quiet for a few hours. However, since she has apparently ruled this out, for whatever reason, it's not an option unless she changes her mind.
Secondly, you make sure that there can't possibly be any signs. And the trouble with this is that it is extremely difficult. You may be able to rule out things like simply talking or banging on the side, but accidental noises and more subtle things like temperature can easily give things away, but would be very difficult to eliminate.
However, we really need more information before we can say it's impossible or come up with ideas. If she doesn't need to be near the boxes, that makes things much easier. If she can be in a different room and look at them via a camera, for example, then there isn't a problem. On the other hand, if she needs to actually touch the boxes, I'm not sure cheating could be ruled out at all. We need to know what kind of boxes are used and what she will do to find the person before we can come up with anything solid.
DevilsAdvocate
Philosopher
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2004
- Messages
- 7,686
What the heck is her stated ability? Being able to identify a box that contains a person is not paranormal. I’m sure there are people who work in security and shipping fields who are trained to identify boxes that contain living things. It is not a description of a paranormal ability. It is a description of a guessing game or challenge to see if you can discover her trick.
More and more applications seem to be falling into the category of publicity stunt, guessing game, or try to figure out my trick.
Let me get straight on her paranormal power here: She can identify, over the course of one hour, the presence of a person if
The person is male
The person can speak Russian
The person is in a box
The box is not in another room
The box is painted in a bright color
No other people are in boxes in the same room
Where does the paranormal come in? And even if it does, who cares? What relevance would there even be to a person who can identify a brightly painted box containing a Russian speaking male person in the same room with other boxes but no other boxes containing people?
In the whole history of the world, I doubt that anyone has ever needed someone with that particular paranormal ability. If you were looking for someone trapped in a box, she would be worthless if she was not in the same room as the person, which would make her pretty useless. And she would be useless if the guy was not in a box. And so on…
This seems like a challenge to the Challenge, and not a demonstration of a paranormal ability. If her ability is limited to this extent, it is either not paranormal or so worthless subject to chance or trickery to not be considered relevant.
If she can state an actual paranormal ability (like that she can detect the presence of a Russian speaking man in her near presence by telepathic means), then she needs to explain why the limits and control she specified are necessary. Otherwise, she has not established a paranormal ability, and is just saying that her paranormal ability is that she can pass a test of her own creation—which is just presenting a challenge to the Challenge and not actually stating a paranormal ability.
NobbyNobbs
Gazerbeam's Protege
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2006
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- 5,617
Do the other boxes need to be empty, or simply devoid of human life?
If the latter, you could have mannequins in each box, and something to replicate human odor, and recordings of a chair squeaking or someone clearing their throat now and then.
(Yes, I know this is getting outrageously complicated, but I find the challenge of setting a protocol for this one, whether practical or not, interesting.)
If the latter, you could have mannequins in each box, and something to replicate human odor, and recordings of a chair squeaking or someone clearing their throat now and then.
(Yes, I know this is getting outrageously complicated, but I find the challenge of setting a protocol for this one, whether practical or not, interesting.)