This would require you to read an entire post. If you are up to the task, try reading post #46. You will find the substantiation. Whether you can follow the link may be too much to ask.
VP Debate: The Palin substantial points thread
- Thread starter Oliver
- Start date
This would require you to read an entire post. If you are up to the task, try reading post #46. You will find the substantiation. Whether you can follow the link may be too much to ask.
Dr Adequate
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So you're clinging to one poll in the strange hope that it might contradict all the others?
Well, I guess you've got to do something to hide from reality.
Apology accepted.
In an address to the “World without Zionism” Conference held in Tehran on October 26, 2005, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said:
ORIGINAL TRANSLITERATION TRANSLATION
و امام عزيز ما فرمودند كه اين
رژيم اشغالگر قدس بايد از صفحه
روزگار محو شود. اين جمله
بسيار حكيمانه است.
Va Imam-e aziz-e ma
farmudand ke in rezhim-e
eshghalgar-e Qods bayad
az safhe-ye ruzegar mahv
shaved. In jomle besyar
hakimane ast.
Our dear Imam [Khomeini)
ordered that this Jerusalem occupying
regime [Israel]
must be erased from the
page of time. This was a very
wise statement.
***.."The New York Times translated the statement as Israel “must be wiped off the map,” a non-literal translation which nevertheless conveyed the meaning of the original – the destruction of Israel.5 Despite the international controversy that Ahmadinejad’s language generated, a report on his October 2005 speech was still available on his presidential website as of May 2008."..***
Oliver
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Yes, this is my point.
A. Ahmadinejad referred to what another guy said.
[Palin referred to Ahmadinejad saying that by himself]
B. Ahmadinejad is quoting the Imam about the Regime.
[Palin said wiping off the state of Israel - the Imam talked about the regime]
C. There is no "Wiping", "Face" or "the Face of the Earth" in that original sentence. Not at all!
[Palin said exactly that]
Ergo: "Ahmadinejad said he will wipe Israel off the face of the earth" is one
big, dishonest lie. [In Palins defense: She doesn't understand.]
Thanks for making my point.
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Oliver
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Here's her statement from the debate:
Palin: "An armed, nuclear armed especially Iran is so extremely dangerous to consider. [How so?] They cannot be allowed [Hello? There is no active Nuke Program.] to acquire nuclear weapons period. Israel is in jeopardy of course when we're dealing with Ahmadinejad as a leader of Iran [A. Evidence? B. Leader of Iran??? C. Israel State or Regime?]. Iran claiming that Israel as he termed it, a stinking corpse, a country [Hello? Not Country, Regime.] that should be wiped off the face of the earth. [Ehm, no. He quoted the Iman. In this quote, there is no "wipe", "off", "Face" or "Earth". Running for VP, you surely learn that before entering office.] Now a leader like Ahmadinejad who is not sane [Evidence?] or stable when he says things like that [Wrong again] is not one whom we can allow to acquire nuclear energy [That's a matter of the IAEA's estimate which Iran is a member of and actually allowed to have nuclear energy], nuclear weapons. Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong Il, the Castro brothers, others who are dangerous dictators [Huh? Like the other Dictator Pal's your Republican Friends are already friends with?] are one that Barack Obama has said he would be willing to meet with without preconditions [Wrong again.] being met first."
Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/02/debate.transcript/
Well, I said it before: In her defense ...
Palin: "An armed, nuclear armed especially Iran is so extremely dangerous to consider. [How so?] They cannot be allowed [Hello? There is no active Nuke Program.] to acquire nuclear weapons period. Israel is in jeopardy of course when we're dealing with Ahmadinejad as a leader of Iran [A. Evidence? B. Leader of Iran??? C. Israel State or Regime?]. Iran claiming that Israel as he termed it, a stinking corpse, a country [Hello? Not Country, Regime.] that should be wiped off the face of the earth. [Ehm, no. He quoted the Iman. In this quote, there is no "wipe", "off", "Face" or "Earth". Running for VP, you surely learn that before entering office.] Now a leader like Ahmadinejad who is not sane [Evidence?] or stable when he says things like that [Wrong again] is not one whom we can allow to acquire nuclear energy [That's a matter of the IAEA's estimate which Iran is a member of and actually allowed to have nuclear energy], nuclear weapons. Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong Il, the Castro brothers, others who are dangerous dictators [Huh? Like the other Dictator Pal's your Republican Friends are already friends with?] are one that Barack Obama has said he would be willing to meet with without preconditions [Wrong again.] being met first."
Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/02/debate.transcript/
Well, I said it before: In her defense ...
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davefoc
Philosopher
Wikipedia has an article on this controversy.
I think it supports Oliver's statements on this approximately:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
I had no idea there was any controversy about this. After hearing ahmadinejad interviewed I would tend to believe that the less aggressive interpretation of his words is correct.
It is interesting that the probably incorrect translation has taken on a life of it's own and is repeated almost endlessly by people trying to hype up justification for more middle east wars. It is also interesting that the original translation came from the Iranians themselves. Could it be that there are people on both sides trying to foment violence for their own purposes?
ETA: My meaning might have been a little unclear on the above. What I meant was that before Oliver brought it up I assumed the very often repeated quote about wiping Israel off the face of the earth was correct.
I think it supports Oliver's statements on this approximately:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
I had no idea there was any controversy about this. After hearing ahmadinejad interviewed I would tend to believe that the less aggressive interpretation of his words is correct.
It is interesting that the probably incorrect translation has taken on a life of it's own and is repeated almost endlessly by people trying to hype up justification for more middle east wars. It is also interesting that the original translation came from the Iranians themselves. Could it be that there are people on both sides trying to foment violence for their own purposes?
ETA: My meaning might have been a little unclear on the above. What I meant was that before Oliver brought it up I assumed the very often repeated quote about wiping Israel off the face of the earth was correct.
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Oliver
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Thank you. I think it's quite dangerous to spill around this dangerous
pro-war propaganda Slogan.
After all, a misquote will get you in doodoo here at JREF, but Predidential
Candidates freely running around spilling this, is hair-raising at best.
Dr Adequate
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Well, I've encountered mad people, I've met schizophrenic lunatics who thought they were the second coming of Jesus Christ, and I still can't understand how anyone can be so crazy as to interpret what I just posted as an apology to you or to anyone else.
Please explain your mental processes to me, and tell me how you managed to pretend to yourself that I apologized to you. I'm fascinated.
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You beleive that "wipe off the face of the earth" and "erased from the page of time" are anything more than semantics? And after seeing the guy interviewed, you beleive he is less bombastic? Wow! The New York Times never wrote a retraction about the translation. Palin is quoting the Times. Are you saying the Gray Lady, the paper of record, is mistaken?
How about the other pearls of wisdom from Oliver's misunderstood pal:
The President of Iran told a press conference on March 14, 2008, held during a meeting of the Organization
of the Islamic Conference in Senegal:17
ORIGINAL TRANSLITERATION TRANSLATION
رژيم صهيونيستي از بين رفتني
است
rezhim-e sahyonisti az bayn
raftani’st.
The Zionist regime is on its
way out [destructible].
Referring to the U.S. (the “Great Satan”) and Israel (the “Little Satan”), Ahmadinejad said at a military
parade on April 17, 2008:18
ORIGINAL TRANSLITERATION TRANSLATION
منطقه و جهان آماده تحولات
بزرگ و پاك شدن از دشمنان
اهريمني است
Mantaqe- va jehan amadeye
tahavolat-e bozorg va
pak shodan az doshmanan-e
ahrimani’st.
The region and the world are
prepared for great changes
and for being cleansed of
Satanic enemies.
In the same speech of October 26, 2005,8 Ahmadinejad returned to the theme of Israel as dirty vermin which needed to be eradicated:
ORIGINAL TRANSLITERATION TRANSLATION
به زودي اين لكه ننگ را از دامان
دنياي اسلام پاك خواهد كرد و
اين شدني است.
Be-zudi in lake-ye nang ra az
damane donya-ye Islam pak
khahad kard, va in shodani’st.
Soon this stain of
disgrace will be cleaned
from the garment of
the world of Islam, and
this is attainable
Oliver
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I guess some idiot in Iran's official propaganda arm doesn't know english
very well or it was actually intended by the unknown guy in question.
My point is that this is a general phrase from US Politicians, and the
Media doesn't point out the facts about the phrase.
Now Palin with such a great knowledge about Iran and "it's leader Ahmadinejad",
being one heartbeat away from the presidency? - That's scary stuff.
Imagine her saying: "We have to attack Iran/their Plant" - nearly every
voter, member of house/senate automatically thinks:
"Iran = Ahmadinejad = Wipe off Israel. Yeah, I'm all for it!"
We saw this type of crap before about another overwhelming WMD threat.
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Oliver
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How about you and Palin listening to what Ahmadinejad said in his
clarification about your and Palin's dishonest attempts to misquote him?
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Dr Adequate
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Hey, Cicero, you're still posting on this thread.
And I'm still interested in people who twitch and scream and rave rather than coming to terms with reality.
So, will you answer my question?
How on earth did you convince yourself of the insane delusion that I apologized to you?
I just want to know. You are a human being. You read my post. Something must have gone through your head. Some chain of ... I won't call it reasoning ... led you to spew out this insane gibberish about how you "accept" my "apology".
Please tell me what was going on in your head.
Oliver
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davefoc
Philosopher
What Palin said:
The less aggressive translation from Wikipedia:
There are significant differences between the quote and how Palin characterized it.
wiped off the face of the earth vs. vanish from the page of time.
the former implies an active military effort, the latter suggests the elimination of Israel by means that might not be military or at least that Iran plays no role in.
Israel vs. regime occupying Jerusalem
The former includes an implication that not only the end of the political entity of Israel is sought but the destruction of all that is there is sought. The latter implies that the rulers of Israel are bad and should be changed.
Ahmadinejad vs the Imam as the source of the statement
Not of great import perhaps because Ahmadinejad does seem to agree with the statement but still a significant difference.
So yes, I find there to be a difference in tone between the two statements.
But, you and I have significantly different views on the issues surrounding this statement and those views, I suspect, will prevent us from ever coming to an agreement on this.
Besides our different views on the role that the US has played in mideast violence and the role that the expantionist policies of Israel have played I suspect we also disagree about the basic approach to diplomacy that we expect out of our leaders. Palin is exploiting the bellicose statements by Ahmadinejad for her own political purposes. I am looking for leaders who have the ability to use diplomacy to solve international issues. Leaders that declare that we are the good guys and they are the bad guys are exactly the kind of people that I don't want in power. There are two sides to most issues and intentionally inflaming international tensions for political gain is exactly what I would like to see not be done by the next administration. Palin either because she has well thought out ideas about the use of aggressive military policies like Cheney or because she is just parroting right wing hawk type language is not somebody that I would like to see in the white house.
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joobz
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Personally, I thought the most telling part came when Palin stated that it didn't matter what caused Global warming, only what we were going to do about it...
Biden, gave the best response of the night when he stated that it IS important to know the cause of a problem, in order to fix it.
This is the central aspect of the debate. Palin/McCain seems to wish we'd ignore the causes of problems and pretend that such issues doesn't matter.
Obama/Biden actually are addressing these problems and handling them head on.
They might not be right in thier solutions, but at least they are aware of the problems.
Biden, gave the best response of the night when he stated that it IS important to know the cause of a problem, in order to fix it.
This is the central aspect of the debate. Palin/McCain seems to wish we'd ignore the causes of problems and pretend that such issues doesn't matter.
Obama/Biden actually are addressing these problems and handling them head on.
They might not be right in thier solutions, but at least they are aware of the problems.
Wangler
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If you read the transcript, she made a point or two about failed Bush policies.
And many of McCain's economic policies are aimed directly at correcting deficiencies in the policies as they exist currently.
davefoc
Philosopher
Many of us have read the transcript. Could you quote the particular part that you had in mind. Thanks.
Wangler
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Oliver
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Nominated.
The fact is that all this "Iranian Bogeyman Threat" is one big exaggeration.
And I honestly assume that Palin has no Idea about anything regarding Iran.
There is no other explanation for that - the whole point she made about
Iran is a collection of nescience. As scary as this is.
Guess what: Her fans would love to see her running the country nevertheless
if McCain has a heart attack or something.
