Psychic Samurai applies for MDC...apparently...

[Loss Leader]

I've never claimed to be able to tell Spirits to "Cool It".
But I think you ARE making progress!

Oy, vey iz mir.

TP, it is not my job to make progress. It is your job to make progress. Hatchet asked you if your claim was one of seven distinct things and you answered that his question "sounds reasonable."

Which of Hatchet's seven things are you claiming to do?

Which parts of my proposed protocol are acceptable?

What parts of my proposed protocol need changing?

Exactly how would you change them?

Exactly what is your claim?

I honestly cannot decide whether your refusal to answer demonstrates willfulness or incompetence. I would appreciate any direction you could give me on such issue.

 

[Thabiguy]

The whole protocol is misdirection. The claim seems to be, simply, that TP can make a voice appear on a tape. The protocol submitted states that he will do this in a certain place at a certain time, but it appears from other comments that it could be done at other times, in other places. We also now have an invocation, TP's assurance that he has nothing up his sleeve...

To demonstrate his apparent claim, all he needs is a blank tape (and safeguards to prevent trickery, of course).

I agree!!!!

I'm afraid that when The Professor said that he agreed - with no less than four exclamation marks - he didn't actually mean that he agreed with the contents of the quoted post.

However, if I happen to be wrong, then your problems are solved, The Professor. Just tell Jeff Wagg that your claim is that you can make a voice appear on a blank tape (near the Devil's Chair on Halloween etc. etc.) and that all you will need to demonstrate this is a blank new tape under neutral control. And you can have your test as planned.

Any other equipment, such as a monitor, camcorder and laptop should be placed OUTSIDE the small container to avoid electric interference. In this way signals from a computer or a camcorder and feedback from equipment will not affect the tape.

I will just point out that in this case, either the other equipment will be unable to communicate in any way with the recorder inside the box, or the box will not be sound and EM-proof. (Light is a type of EM radiation.)

If it's the former, I don't understand the purpose of the other equipment, if it's the latter, I don't understand the purpose of the box.

 

[xinit]

The whole protocol is misdirection. ...

I agree!!!!

Most correct post yet.

 

[xinit]

Do you know HOW and WHY this whole Test was started?

The JREF test in general, or your non-test specifically?

If we're speaking of YOUR non-test, I believe that the WHY was exactly as I suggested; to provide a bit of misdirection so that you and Jim could put together a video about how horrible the JREF is and then quote-mine for supporting evidence.

 

[petre]

The whole protocol is misdirection. The claim seems to be, simply, that TP can make a voice appear on a tape. The protocol submitted states that he will do this in a certain place at a certain time, but it appears from other comments that it could be done at other times, in other places. We also now have an invocation, TP's assurance that he has nothing up his sleeve...

To demonstrate his apparent claim, all he needs is a blank tape (and safeguards to prevent trickery, of course).

I agree!!!!

Commonly if one wishes to quote a statement and agree with it, one would quote only the statement they agree with. By quoting the entire post, you would seem to indicate your agreement with all statements.

You agree your protocol is all misdirection?

You agree your claim is that you can make a voice appear on tape?

You agree you can do this at other times than Oct. 31st?

You agree you can do this at other places than the Devil's Chair?

You agree you have nothing up your sleeve?

You agree that all you need is a blank tape?

In response to some of your other postings, you have indicated a willingness to perform your demonstration on the same date in 2009 instead of 2008. This would make the protocol negotiation a good deal less rushed. Have you yet contacted experts in sound transmission and media recording?

As noted above, if you're willing to isolate the tape from a recording device of any kind I think it will be quite clear your claim is paranormal.

 

[Jeff Wagg]

I agree!!!!

Are you claiming that you can record voice on a blank tape without the aid of any equipment? THAT would be very testable.

 

[Jeff Wagg]

Now YOU get it Wagg!
The JREF group is super thinkers who can never be caught out!
James Randi loves to claim how he can expose anything. Obviously you guys would catch this right away.
That's what you critical thinkers do.... Catch us trailer trash no goods after you eagerly discriminated against us in your robust and friendly fashion

Please post the additional Magic Disclaimer that I must sign.
Thanks
Dave

It's part of the protocol, and it simply states that you agree that you have not used trickery or deception as part of your test.

We are not currently negotiating protocol. The JREF is awaiting your claimed ability.

 

[Jeff Wagg]

Do you know HOW and WHY this whole Test was started?

It was started by you applying for the challenge. I'm assuming the "why" is because you have a paranormal ability and want to show it to us so that you may win the $1,000,000.

 

[Jeff Wagg]

Jeff
Is this what you'd like?
It sounds reasonable to me!

Yes, this is what I'd like.

"I can do X"

 

[gdnp]

Question for electronic experts: is there a way to tell if there is a recording on a tape without putting it in a tape player? Is there some way to remotely examine (remotely, a la X-rays, etc) a tape to see if something has been recorded on it? If so, then when the Professor is finished with his process, the tape doesn't even need to be unwrapped to be examined.

I am no electronics expert, but placing the tape in a strong enough magnetic field should erase anything on it. This would not require it be unwrapped. Or the recording could be done on a blank CD, assuming the paranormal entity is capable of recording in that medium. This might be harder to fake: I can imagine making a recording magnetically on a tape without touching it since magnetic fields will go through the packaging. Recording something on a packaged CD would be more difficult.

 

[IMST]

I am no electronics expert, but placing the tape in a strong enough magnetic field should erase anything on it. This would not require it be unwrapped. Or the recording could be done on a blank CD, assuming the paranormal entity is capable of recording in that medium. This might be harder to fake: I can imagine making a recording magnetically on a tape without touching it since magnetic fields will go through the packaging. Recording something on a packaged CD would be more difficult.

Recording is done on tapes via magnetic fields rather than contact, so even a packaged tape has a potential security concern. A CD-R can be visually inspected for prerecorded material, though a pressed CD cannot. With the CD-R it takes quite a bit of material to be obvious, though, so if it's a ten second recording the inspection must be done very closely.

 

[Azrael 5]

I can't see a claim being submitted before Friday now.'Tis a shame,we were close to seeing real paranormal activity too.

Oh slightly O/T but can TP stop referencing Houdini in relation to Halloween and spirts.He died on Halloween thats all ,and thus this was to be the day he would make attempt contact.Not because it was halloween.

 

[AndyD]

Wow, is this thread still going?!?!

I suggest people start up a roster system: One person to ask what the claim is, another to ask Jim to help, another to ask what the claim is, another to make some suggestions, another to ask what TP's last post referred to and another to ask what the claim is. Oh, and someone to post an occasional sarcastic remark.

If we could spread these various tasks around, we could all take an occasional break and know the thread would still be in the same state it was when we left it - until October 2009!

Just a suggestion.

So, TP, what, exactly, are you claiming you can do that's so unusual?

 

[eirik]

Are you claiming that you can record voice on a blank tape without the aid of any equipment? THAT would be very testable.

Yes indeed, this is testable. Of course one still should state in the protocol WHAT is to be said on the tape. I suggest the lyrics of the ghostbusters theme song

We should not become too paranoid as to what actually can be done by trickery.

A tape recorder moves the tape at a set speed and magnetizes the tape with a small and very precise "head" in patterns spread on the tape like a timescale. To record information, the recorder depends on the moving of a tape.

This enables the playback device to interpret the tape and reproduce the input by reading, with the head, the polarized tape in a set speed.

One cannot beam electronic signals by radiowave/other em-waves, and get a coherent pattern on a static casette tape not inserted into an active recorder. The tape would be rolled up in a cassette, so even if the tape would be magnetized it would not make a sequence that will resemble anything like voices, if any sound at all.

One can easily test this at home. Put an empty cassette tape near a subwoofer while you blast your stereo, and you will magnetize it with powerfull EM-signals. The playback will not produce any coherent signals.

There simply is no way.

Go for it, jeff

eirik

 

[jimtron]

The Professor said:

I have had GREAT success making contact at the Devil's Chair.

Dave, please tell us more about this. It would help us to understand your claim. What or whom did you contact? How was the contact made?

Also: if I'm not mistaken, Dave has stated or implied that it's impossible to come up with a claim and/or protocol because of the definition of "paranormal," and/or for other reasons. Maybe it would help if we listed some claims and protocols that have been deemed acceptable by the JREF.

 

[jimtron]

We should not become too paranoid as to what actually can be done by trickery.

I agree, there's no reason for paranoia. But what Dave has proposed so far, is putting 4 to 8 (I can't remember the exact number) electronic devices in play, all inside the Faraday cage (IIRC). There are many ways to sneak an audio or video signal to a recorder in this situation, via wires, Bluetooth, IR, switching tapes, etc. And I don't know much about Faraday cages, but it's my understanding that it doesn't stop wireless or other transmissions inside of it (IOW, it prevents some communication from outside getting in, but doesn't stop communication taking place exclusively inside the cage). We don't need to be paranoid, but it's essential to rule out technological (vs. paranormal) methods for getting the voice or whatever recorded. That's why some of us have expressed interest in using a tape without electronic devices, which would make things simpler and easier to control. Or if we found out more about what this entity is that Dave can make contact with, we could propose other tests.

It's impossible to get into detail regarding the protocol when we don't yet know what the claim is. Recording a voice (even if it is an apparently disembodied one) is perfectly natural and scientifically explainable. We're waiting for the paranormal claim.

Jeff Wagg, who unlike me is a JREF official, said the following a few posts up:

Are you claiming that you can record voice on a blank tape without the aid of any equipment? THAT would be very testable.

Time is running out, but it's not too late yet. Dave, please follow the rules and present your testable claim.

 

[Azrael 5]

Anyone know what time on Friday the "door is shut" on this application?

Where is David F Koenig tonight? Busy with his team of writers? I'd hazard a guess with little over a day to go he must be feverishly revising his protocol;no-one is going to spend all this time discussing a claim to back out at the last minute,surely....?

 

[yairhol]

Uhh, so you can do this with a new tape i plastic wrapping lying on the ground. Without a camcorder or laptop or other pieces of e- equipment?

If it can be this simple, this is progress

eirik

eirik, you have not been following this thread properly.
I have suggested this several times before.

See post #336:

The Professor, can your said entity record its answers on a blank electronic media (will be checked before hand) without this media being connected to any electronic device? For example, if you bring a blank electronic media of your choice (will have to be agreed in advance) but this media will be sitting on a rock beside you. You will not be touching it and neither will anybody else. Then, after all your questions have been asked, this media will be played back by an electronic device. If somehow magically the media is full with clear contents that have answers to your questions in the correct order (the questions should be asked in a random order as to avoid more trickery possibilities such as somehow the media having been encoded with answers on beforehand) then you pass. If not then you didn't pass.

post #401:

TP, can a protocol of this sort be acceptable to you?
The main issues here: no recording device, a blank (brand new) electronic media (VCR tape for example), no one touching the blank media, you ask the entity questions that are in random order (questions that you have no previous knowledge of), at the end of the test the electronic media is played back. In order to pass the test the media should now contain a voice answering the questions in the order that have been read.

Is something like this acceptable to you?
What do you other JREFers think of this?

post #820:

Another suggestion if TP will accept.

TP, can you put sound, picture or whatever on a magnetic (or some other) cassette when the cassette is not inserted into any recording device? A plain cassette in its wrapping which when opened will play answers to questions you are given at the challenge date?

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Yes indeed, this is testable. Of course one still should state in the protocol WHAT is to be said on the tape. I suggest the lyrics of the ghostbusters theme song

We should not become too paranoid as to what actually can be done by trickery.

From what I've read, I don't think that's his claim at all. His claim is the audio recording will be made normally, however what will be heard on the tape (and as far as I can tell also witnessed live) will be a conversation with a supernatural entity.

The problem that I see is that there's no way to prove this entity is supernatural. It could be a real live human being cleverly hidden in the cemetery, or some sort of communication device with a human on the other end. There's no way to prove that the voice is coming from something (or someone) supernatural.

 

[eirik]

eirik, you have not been following this thread properly.
I have suggested this several times before.

See post #336:


post #401:


post #820:

Hi, yairhol. No, I actually have been following this thread with great interest, but you'll have to admit that with almost 860 post it's hard to remember in detail what's been suggested and who's to credit for what..

Now that you mention it, I recall you suggesting the naked tape idea early in the thread. It didn't catch my interest then because TP was in the familiar elusive mood, and it didn't seem to be productive to the protocol at the time.

The progress I referred to was that TP was actually agreeing to it. That is remarkable progress, if one can use such a word at this point. Friday is it?

And jimtron: I totally agree with what you're saying, "that's why some of us have expressed interest in using a tape without electronic devices, which would make things simpler and easier to control".. We're on the same page on this, and that was clumsily stated in the post you're referring to. I was just making a point about not going overboard on technoparanoia, as some posts would indicate.

From what I've read, I don't think that's his claim at all. His claim is the audio recording will be made normally, however what will be heard on the tape (and as far as I can tell also witnessed live) will be a conversation with a supernatural entity.

The problem that I see is that there's no way to prove this entity is supernatural. It could be a real live human being cleverly hidden in the cemetery, or some sort of communication device with a human on the other end. There's no way to prove that the voice is coming from something (or someone) supernatural.

Hi there CynicalSkeptic. According to the post you're referring to, Mojo states "To demonstrate his apparent claim, all he needs is a blank tape (and safeguards to prevent trickery, of course)", to which The Professor answers "I agree!!!!"

The most reasonable understanding of this as i see it, and wagg if i understand him correctly, is that TP is agreeing to do the test without electronic equipment. We'll have to wait and see how serious the P is with this, but this was what was stated.(see the most recent posts from the P)

If I am wrong and you are right(this we cannot know at this point, because i suspect TP has not yet made up his mind), TP will use a tape recorder and not only a tape. To thid i must point out:

Putting something on a tape in a tapeRECORDER when fysically excluding sound or EM-sources((we can debate how this can be done, but it CAN be done..)which are the only known signal sources) is actually paranormal or supernatural. It would then not matter what or who the source is, because it's super duper natural, as TP would put it..


Again, correct me if I'm wrong. but our primary concern should be helping the professor with his claim and his protocol and be as productive as possible.

Respect

eirik