Psychic Samurai applies for MDC...apparently...

[jimtron]

You are misinformed. There are NO marketed effects that can do this in a super faraday cage. If you can prove it then I will agree, but you CAN'T. You are just blowing smoke like the rest. YOU CAN"T DO IT AND NEITHER CAN ANYONE ELSE .... IF SO ...PROVE IT OR BUTT OUT!

Perhaps this would work in a "super faraday cage": http://www.vikingmagic.com/?nd=full&key=93

Maybe there is a marketed effect like this that will work in a faraday cage, and maybe there isn't. The point is, what you've described so far could be done in a scientifically explainable way (whether there is a marketed magic trick that does this or not). I'm sure many people could sneak audio or video onto a recorder, even in a faraday cage, especially if there are 6 or more electronic devices in play.

 

[Jim Callahan]

OK, let's say the voice says "Hello," and all 100 people agree that they hear "Hello." Where's the paranormal part? I can sneak a voice onto a tape in a tape recorder, but that is not paranormal, it is entirely scientifically explainable.

Jim, since Dave can't do it, maybe you can help. How is Dave's objectively paranormal? There are many magicians and scientists and others who can secretly get audio or video onto a recorder--clearly that is not paranormal. So what makes Dave's "claim" paranormal?

Jim, I do understand what you are getting at.

I thought he made that clear in his application.
Does he not state that it would be a Q&A sort of thing?

As a side note I know of no one who can do this with borrowed equipment.
Personaly I would suggest an old school mechanical disc recorder from the 1950's if they still can be found. They record with a stylus onto a blank disc that is covered with some sort of wax.

Best Wishes,

Jim

 

[The Professor]

Ok. Here goes:



Wrong.

Self-evident means self-evident. Not eight out of ten, not nine out of ten, not ten out of ten.

Self-evident means: Defined before the test. By you. And then agreed upon mutually.

Well if the JREF and the admittedly Biased Jeff Wagg who denies all the claims refuses to see the obvious and refuses to agree with anything then I see your point. Protecting the million is the sole purpose here.

If the tape says "Call me at the phone booth" would you say it was an equipment malfunction? The recording was made in a super duper faraday cage that NO ONE can penetrate. Not even the JREF!
You are claiming that even though it isn't Scientifically Explainable it is NOT Paranormal. And that is NOT what the JREF says!

If it is Not Scientifically Explainable it is PARANORMAL
Just like the claim I've made.

The Claim I've made is NOT SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINABLE.

 

[eirik]

Professor:

Try using less words. Then people will listen.

I think a claim as I stated above would fly much easier with jeff wagg than your essay on paranormalism. Again, just trying to help out. I will qoute the proposed claim here(open for debate):

"Voices are put on a recording device by other means than audio and magnetism.(could it be turned off?) It is not audible to other people or other recording devices on the site.

The recording device is put in a soundproof box in a faraday cage. If the recording device playbacks a voice with a mutually agreed upon text/ sequence, this constitutes a success."

A lot of people actually wants to see this test through. It's irrelevant for the test if you are not popular on the forum or with jeff or randi. That IS selv evident, cause you're still here It is VERY relevant for the test that you have not yet produced a claim.

 

[Mojo]

I David Koenig,
http://professorslimking.com/
Will sit on the Devil's Chair
(Called a Paranormal Portal by hundreds of local residents in Cassadaga and Lake Helen.
Cassadaga, Florida, is proud of its Devil's Chair. The town has a reputation as a haven for occultists, mediums and other spiritualist sorts, and a cemetery between Cassadaga and Saint Helen has, by one of its graves, a brick-and-mortar armchair. Not particularly cozy, I suspect, but if one's used to parking one's tail on brimstone, it may indeed be the La-Z-Boy of infernal decor. Certainly local legend perpetuates the Devil-as-good-ol'-boy image: one of the stories insists that if you leave an unopened can of beer on the chair, it will be empty by morning. Accounts vary; in some of them, the can's opened, in others, the beer is simply gone, like magic, through the unopened top. Furthermore, if you yourself sit in the chair, you run the chance of having a heart-to-heart with the Prince of Darkness, who is rumoured to show up (and, presumably, chat up) anyone who dares to wait for him there. )


In Lake Helen Florida
http://maps.google.com/maps?client=...um=1&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title
(You can actually SEE the Devil's Chair if you zoom in!)

on 10/31/2008 and 10/31/2009, ( Unless the JREF choses to forgo the preliminary test as they have offered to others... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW1KaSSftLE)
( I ask again that this be granted without the seemingly mandatory rejection of the request by Alison Michelle Smith before she was removed from the case.)
( Millions have reported Paranormal Events on this particular day for hundreds of years)

and perform the following Invocation.

I seek the Way; I yearn to know.
Visions I see, and fleeting deep impressions.
Behind the portal, on the other side,
Lies that which I call home,
For the circle has been well nigh trod
And the end approaches the beginning.

I seek the Way. All ways my feet have trod.
The Way of Fire calls me with fierce appeal.
Naught in me seeks the way of peace;
Naught in me yearns for earth.

Let the fire rage, the flames devour;
Let all the dross be burnt,
And let me enter through that Gate,
And tread the Way of Fire.

From beneath me arises the energy of the Earth,
my home and my foundation;
From above me pours down the
Power of the Light of the Sun and the enchanting Moon;
To my right hand flows
the strength to control and direct, the power of magic;
To my left hand comes
the skill to divine and heal, the source of blessing;
Before me arises
the perfected one I strive to become, my magical true self.
Behind me falls the one I was,
and with it all my discarded failures.
Around me circle the eternal stars,
lamps of wisdom in the deeps of space.
Within me grows the flame of life,
the light of experience and understanding.

Beneath me is the Earth, mother of my physical being.
Above me is my guiding star, shining forever.
Behind me are the memories I'm freeing.
Before me is the light I'll discover.
To my right comes the power of reason.
To my left flows the knowledge of healing.
Around me is the joy of all seasons.
Within me is wisdom revealing.

O Thou Who givest sustenance to the universe,
From Whom all things proceed,
To Whom all things return,
Unveil to us the face of the true Spiritual Sun
Hidden by a disc of golden light,
That we may know the truth
And do our whole duty,
As we journey to Thy sacred feet.

O Faith, awake!
I now place my faith in the Power of Faith that I AM.
I AM FAITH.

O Strength, awake!
I now place my faith in the Power of Strength that I AM.
I AM STRENGTH.

O Wisdom, awake!
I now place my faith in the Power of Wisdom that I AM.
I AM WISDOM.

O Love, awake!
I now place my faith in the Power of Love that I AM.
I AM LOVE.

O Will, awake!
I now place my faith in the Power of Will that I AM.
I AM WILL.

O Authority, awake!
I now place my faith in the Power of Authority that I AM.
I AM AUTHORITY.

O Understanding, awake!
I now place my faith
in the Power of Understanding that I AM.
I AM UNDERSTANDING.

O Enthusiasm, awake!
I now place my faith in the Power of Enthusiasm that I AM. I AM ENTHUSIASM.

O Imagination, awake!
I now place my faith in the Power of Imagination that I AM. I AM IMAGINATION.

O Order, awake!
I now place my faith in the Power of Order that I AM.
I AM ORDER.

O Forgiveness, awake!
I now place my faith in the Power of Forgiveness that I AM.
I AM FORGIVENESS.

O Life, awake!
I now place my faith in the Power of Life that I AM.
I AM LIFE.

I am a master mind
and all the elements hear my voice and gladly do my will.
Fear and unbelief, which have bound my will,
have been caught and turned aside.
Now my will knows no bounds,
and I have but to speak and it is done.
And it is so!

MAKE MANIFEST!

James Randi himself must be present to represent the James Randi Eductional Foundation's Million Dollar Challenge in Lake Helen at the Devil's Chair. No secondary substitutes should be acceptable since I've signed a contract with James Randi himself.

Inside of a custom Faraday cage designed with clear and accepted scientific standards of effectiveness, will be two video recorders, two televisions, two audio recording devices, and two laptop computers. The video camera/recorders and televisions will be set in a video loop with the camera facing the television screen and connected to cause this loop and turned on prior to the Invocation.. The audio recording devices will also be turned on as well as the audio/video recording programs in the laptops at the same time. All recording tape will be free of any previous recording. All other instruments will be free of previous recording, either erased or simply blank from the beginning of the test. All recordings will be clean and blank prior to the test. The double testing will insure an effective test should any devices fail during the experiment.

The recording devices will be turned on before the initial Invocation and will be left on for 27 minutes.

During this time the Invocation will be given once again approximately 15 minutes into the test.

The recording instruments will be examined. The tape recordings, and digital recordings will be viewed and listened to.

Look at all that misdirection! Are you sure this isn't the set-up for some sort of conjuring trick?

 

[Pup]

The recording instruments will be examined. The tape recordings, and digital recordings will be viewed and listened to.

This is obviously the least of the protocol problems at this point, and I think there are more clever ways of projecting something onto the recording equipment, but let's also not forget the old switch-a-roo. The instruments should be examined without any possibility of someone swapping tapes or adding something after the test is over but before they're played back.

 

[The Professor]

Jeff
Do you still want me to sign the agreement that I am using no Magical trickery. You've avoided my other questions, perhaps you'll answer this one?

 

[GzuzKryzt]

I am sure most posters do not understand what Dave is going on about.

That is in my opinion because he has not corrected the misunderstanding that this is not the type of recorded evidence that needs subjective interpretation.
Such as you would expect to get from the EVP crowd for example.

This is not the scratchy open to debate type of recording most people have heard and or seen via white noise transmissions etc.

Jeff asks about a voice on a recorder and the reply of Oh it malfunctioned.
I would offer that complete sentences are a bit hard to explain away as a malfunction.
(Use several different makes of recorders to rule out malfunction.)

My suggestion would be to have 100 people listen to what is recorded and have them repeat or right down what they heard.

If they all say the same thing I would offer that it is entirely self evident.

Just my opinion but I think the use of several new recorders of different makes some digital some tape would rule out a gaff.

Best Wishes,

Jim

Unfortunately, this link only seems suitable for German-speaking readers. Hey TP, this originated also on RTL.

It refers to the possible misunderstanding of lyrics. As in Jimi Hendrix' "Purple Haze": "[...]Excuse me why I kiss this guy. [...]"



As one can see, ar least two meanings could be attributed to said statement. Which would make it not self-evident.

Given The Professor's five languages stipulation, the results could be interpretable in a variety of ways. I'm not saying that they would, only that they could. Imagine a panel of people familiar with "Finnegan's Wake"...



"[...]Benzol forte, forte, forte, Dir nur 'reinzieh'n[...]"

 

[Jim Callahan]

It's not really that this is a misunderstanding, Jim.

This is an issue where it needs to be specified in the claim. If it's supposed to be a tape full of dead celebrities singing "Kum Ba Ya" or Carl Sagan going on about how he was wrong, and there is a Heaven... whatever... this need to be specified. Will the voice answer questions known only to unbiased observers, and will it do so in a clear fashion? Will the voice be able to address questioners by name without introductions?

A claim of "Something" could be interpreted to mean "Anything" and as such is not suitable for testing.

I thought Dave had specified voices.
Sorry for the missunderstanding.

Jim

 

[The Professor]

Professor:

Try using less words. Then people will listen.

I think a claim as I stated above would fly much easier with jeff wagg than your essay on paranormalism. Again, just trying to help out. I will qoute the proposed claim here(open for debate):

"Voices are put on a recording device by other means than audio and magnetism.(could it be turned off?) It is not audible to other people or other recording devices on the site.

The recording device is put in a soundproof box in a faraday cage. If the recording device playbacks a voice with a mutually agreed upon text/ sequence, this constitutes a success."

A lot of people actually wants to see this test through. It's irrelevant for the test if you are not popular on the forum or with jeff or randi. That IS selv evident, cause you're still here It is VERY relevant for the test that you have not yet produced a claim.

I like your ideas but you are mistaken about the voices. They could be actual audible voices within the faraday cage itself and also electronic impulses causing anomolies that should not exist in that environment.
I'm not concerned with the popularity contest here. If you look at the DragonCon brochure you'll see a class offered how to "Not Be So Nerdy"
especially for the Closed Minded Skeptics

 

[jimtron]

Does he not state that it would be a Q&A sort of thing?

This is a big problem--he won't go into detail about what will happen. The rules require that it must be clearly stated in advance what will happen, and what constitutes success and what's a failure. Communicating with a disembodied voice is not paranormal--there are many known ways to do this. If the voice can name what's in a sealed box, then we might have something. If it's Q&A--let's hear more. Will the voice answer questions that no living mortal could answer? What will be asked? How will we know it's not a trick?

Why doesn't Dave follow the rules and explain his claim?

If the tape says "Call me at the phone booth" would you say it was an equipment malfunction?

No, not likely. However, sneaking an audio recording of someone saying that is not paranormal. Where's the paranormal part, Dave?

The Claim I've made is NOT SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINABLE.

What claim? Your claim has been so vague, that many, many scientifically explainable methods have not been ruled out. You were asked if wires will be going out of the cage or if the gear will run on batteries. You didn't reply AFAIK. I don't think ventriloquism has even been ruled out, for another example.

What's the paranormal claim? Voices from the dead? From space aliens? Please tell us.

 

[Azrael 5]

Who says these voices aren't scientifically provable? Unless these voices can state something themselves that is impossible(a prediction viewing a sealed envelope).

A box is insepcted,seen to be empty,stuck in a farady cage,yet 27 minutes later a girl appears! Is this paranormal? No it's a magic trick.Which is what you are proposing IMO.

I'll put this in big bold text so maybe you will see it and answer(not your strong point I know)

WHAT EVIDENCE LEADS YOU TO BELIEVE DEVIL'S CHAIR IS ANYTHING BUT A STONE CHAIR IN A FIELD,OR THAT YOU HAVE ANY ABILITIES TO SUMMON ANYTHING PARANORMAL? CAN YOU PLEASE SHOW US IT?

WHAT IS YOUR PARANORMAL CLAIM?

 

[remirol]

I thought he made that clear in his application.
Does he not state that it would be a Q&A sort of thing?

He does not. He stated most recently:

Since the devices were blank prior to the Invocation the following will be true.

If any evidence is found on the tapes or digital recordings that is NOT SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINABLE it will be considered a successful test of the Paranormal.

This is not a testable claim, nor is it even much of a claim at all, frankly.

As a side note I know of no one who can do this with borrowed equipment.

Which, of course, bears no relation to whether it can be done.

Mr. Koenig has spent the majority of his time here both attempting to shift the burden of proof and casting baseless accusations at both Remie and Jeff. This is neither productive, nor will it prove effective. If Mr. Koenig would care to simply state his claim as to what paranormal event will occur, then discussions could proceed. Instead, he spends his time shouting into the ether about irrelevancies, willfully misunderstanding and distorting the proceedings, apparently in a vain hope that he can trick the JREF into simply giving up and co-operating with his staged production.

This process would move along a lot quicker if Mr. Koenig would make some effort towards the actual goal, rather than the side issues.

 

[roger]

And there you are. It could be anything. Meanwhile you have a feedback loop set up between a camera and television screen. How, oh how could an electronic impulse happen in that environment?

Think, Roger, think!

 

[Lrrr]

This is not the scratchy open to debate type of recording most people have heard and or seen via white noise transmissions etc.

Jeff asks about a voice on a recorder and the reply of Oh it malfunctioned.
I would offer that complete sentences are a bit hard to explain away as a malfunction.
(Use several different makes of recorders to rule out malfunction.)

My suggestion would be to have 100 people listen to what is recorded and have them repeat or right down what they heard.

If they all say the same thing I would offer that it is entirely self evident.

Just my opinion but I think the use of several new recorders of different makes some digital some tape would rule out a gaff.

Best Wishes,

Jim

I think this is a step in the right direction in defining a result, but there is still the issue of "is it paranormal"? I tend to agree that if a voice is produced from a source that is "scientifically unexplainable" that this would be considered paranormal. However, defining the conditions that make something scientifically unexplainable is extremely difficult and the onus is on the claimant, not the JREF. This is a sticking point that I don't believe Dave has grasped, or that he fails to acknowledge.

As others have pointed out, the rules of the challenge are not "Here is something [a voice on a tape recorder]. Hey, JREF. Prove that it can be explained scientifically. Can't do it? Cheque please!". Instead, the "burden of proof" falls on the claimant.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Well if the JREF and the admittedly Biased Jeff Wagg who denies all the claims refuses to see the obvious and refuses to agree with anything then I see your point. Protecting the million is the sole purpose here.

If the tape says "Call me at the phone booth" would you say it was an equipment malfunction? The recording was made in a super duper faraday cage that NO ONE can penetrate. Not even the JREF!
You are claiming that even though it isn't Scientifically Explainable it is NOT Paranormal. And that is NOT what the JREF says!

If it is Not Scientifically Explainable it is PARANORMAL
Just like the claim I've made.

The Claim I've made is NOT SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINABLE.

Please look at post #768 to see how people can be fooled - or fool themselves.



You have made no testable claim, The Professor.



What about this?

...
I have had GREAT success making contact at the Devil's Chair.
...

How did you make contact, what did that contact constitute of, what does "great success" mean and what controls did you use? Were there any witnesses?

Why haven't you proposed to use that protocol for the preliminary test?

 

[Lrrr]

Jeff
Do you still want me to sign the agreement that I am using no Magical trickery. You've avoided my other questions, perhaps you'll answer this one?

Could this communication not have been done via private email? Your question appears to be asked here solely to embarrass Jeff. More misdirection!

 

[eirik]

claim

I like your ideas but you are mistaken about the voices. They could be actual audible voices within the faraday cage itself and also electronic impulses causing anomolies that should not exist in that environment.

Then the electronic impulses in the environment and audible voices should then generate inside the soundproof box/faraday cage. Maybe you should test this before you procede.

(i must say that I really doubt that any device can "beam" electronic emp-signals onto a tape undetected, so the faraday cage may be over the top)


But most important: what will the voices be saying? this could be anything, but jeff and the rest will probably insist on something mutually agreed upon in advance, as part of the protocol.

May I suggest the lyrics of talking heads "psycho killer"?

 

[jenski]

I like your ideas but you are mistaken about the voices. They could be actual audible voices within the faraday cage itself and also electronic impulses causing anomolies that should not exist in that environment.
I'm not concerned with the popularity contest here. If you look at the DragonCon brochure you'll see a class offered how to "Not Be So Nerdy"
especially for the Closed Minded Skeptics

Snarkiness is most unbecoming.

 

[Jeff Wagg]

Well if the JREF and the admittedly Biased Jeff Wagg who denies all the claims refuses to see the obvious and refuses to agree with anything then I see your point. Protecting the million is the sole purpose here.

If the tape says "Call me at the phone booth" would you say it was an equipment malfunction? The recording was made in a super duper faraday cage that NO ONE can penetrate. Not even the JREF!
You are claiming that even though it isn't Scientifically Explainable it is NOT Paranormal. And that is NOT what the JREF says!

If it is Not Scientifically Explainable it is PARANORMAL
Just like the claim I've made.

The Claim I've made is NOT SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINABLE.

"Call me at the phone booth" could certainly be an equipment malfunction.

What is your claim? You're typing as though you've made one, but I haven't seen one.