Psychic Samurai applies for MDC...apparently...

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Do you feel that making voices "appear' on a clean protected and untouched tape as EVER being accepted by the JREF?

There are scientifically explainable ways to do this. There are magic tricks on the market that do this, for example. We live in a world with all kinds of ways of transmitting pictures and voices (TV, Bluetooth, cell phones, IR, radio, etc) in an invisible manner. And with so many electronic devices in play, it would be a cinch to sneak a voice or image onto the recorder. That's why so far what you described isn't appropriate for the MDC. You've given few if any essential details, and from what you've said so far it sounds entirely explainable by science. What we need is a testable, paranormal claim.

Dave, if you don't follow the rules and continue to nitpick, it will likely appear to the world that you made a claim that you can't back up. If you really have a paranormal claim, follow the rules and apply. Of course you can't proceed if you don't follow the rules!
 
I think that "making voices "appear" on a clean protected and untouched tape" would probably be accepted by the JREF if you could provide objective evidence that this occurred as a result of a paranormal event. Playing a voice on a recording and saying "Prove to me that this is NOT paranormal" is not the same as providing objective evidence.

Thank you for a wonderfully clear explanation of the issue at hand.
:clap:
 
That "Something will NOT BE SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINABLE

That "voice" on the recorder is caused by pareidolia and is actually the highly compressed, over amplified noise and EM generated by the movement of the tape in the video camera.

Case dismissed.

Unless you have a way to guard against this?

I don't see anything about questions being asked of the 'entity' - I just see "Something". Your claim has become, if anything, less precise with time. If you could cause voice to appear that would be able to answer questions, at least that would be something. Not with interpreted EVP, but with direct answers.

Let's say your entity is a mathemetician;

"How many times does the sequence 456456545 appear in the first 200,000,000 digits of pi?"

"That's easy; it appears twice."

No interpretation, at least.
 
Here is MY CLAIM of a Paranormal Event to take place as provided for by the JREF


Okay, here we go. I do have to note, TP, that you use way, way too many words. As a lawyer, I pride myself on precision in my writing. Even the sentence I quoted above has at least thirteen more words than appropriate for ease of reading.


I David Koenig <snip> Will sit on the Devil's Chair <snip> In Lake Helen Florida <snip> on 10/31/2008 and 10/31/2009 <snip> and perform the following Invocation. <very long snip>


I see nothing wrong with any of this.


James Randi himself must be present


Never going to happen. There are three reasons why Mr. Randi should not attend. 1) The MDC is an objective test, so the presense of Mr. Randi is unnecessary. Being there can only cause complications and confusion while not being there allows people to work more smoothly. 2) Mr. Randi is getting on in years and should probably be asleep at midnight for reasons relating to his own health. 3) As an established personality, Mr. Randi's presence might accidentally cause others to believe that he somehow endorses you or believes you to be a competent magician. His mere attendance would be an event in and of itself, warranting news and entertainment coverage - unfairly allowing you to share in the publicity he generates.

I do not represent the JREf but I believe Mr. Randi will not attend under any circumstance whatsoever. If this is a non-negotiable point for you, I suggest you abandon your attempt to state a claim right now. No amount of haggling over protocol will change this fact so there is no reason for you to continue.

I am constrained to point out, however, that those who accused you of being nothing but a publicity hound will find ammunition in your behavior.


Inside of a custom Faraday cage designed with clear and accepted scientific standards of effectiveness,


Please describe the exact design of the custom Faraday cage.


will be two video recorders, two televisions, two audio recording devices, and two laptop computers.


This is a whole lot of equipment. Is all of it necessary for your challenge? If so, how will you send power to all that equipment? Will there be a generator in there with the a/v equipment? Will it all run off batteries? Will cords come snaking out of the cage? If cords leave the cage, how can we guard against using those cords (or the hole in the cage) to send in a signal?

You will note that the two fake protocols I wrote used technology that was available at any K-Mart and worked right out of the box. Simplifying the technology cuts down the chances of cheating. Perhaps you should consider this.


The video camera/recorders and televisions will be set in a video loop with the camera facing the television screen and connected to cause this loop and turned on prior to the Invocation.. The audio recording devices will also be turned on as well as the audio/video recording programs in the laptops at the same time. All recording tape will be free of any previous recording. All other instruments will be free of previous recording, either erased or simply blank from the beginning of the test. All recordings will be clean and blank prior to the test.


That seems like a lot of work. How will the computers be made blank? And what would constitute an acceptible result on the computers?


The double testing will insure an effective test should any devices fail during the experiment.


Double testing? I count six things on which a recording could be made. Do you really need six?


The recording devices will be turned on before the initial Invocation and will be left on for 27 minutes.


Sigh.


If any evidence is found on the tapes or digital recordings that is NOT SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINABLE it will be considered a successful test of the Paranormal.


And here, at the very end of your long post, you put in the same sentence that you've said several times before. The problems have already been explained to you. This sentence just begs the question:

What evidence will be found on the tapes? How will such evidence be collected and evaluated so that no human judgment is involved? How will the evidence be examined so that, objectively, its mere existence will be proof of paranormal activity?

I would think that you could run a dB meter next to the recordings. You could say that the "answers" must be at least three-quarters as loud as your questions. You could say that Dragon Naturally Speaking must recognize the answers as the words you say they are with 80% efficiency. You could think of some other test.

Instead, you have left this entirely up to the imagination. I will use all caps because you did: THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE PROTOCOL. You must be exact in describing the effect you expect and the manner in which it should be measured.

And, even then, the ways to cheat this protocol are so many and so varied that I can't see it ever being approved by any reasonable person.


This is a very testable claim and I can't wait to perform it on 10/31/2008 for the Million Dollar Prize!


It is not a testable claim because you haven't specified how to test it.
 
If you have evidence to back up that claim, I'd like to see it. I am paid to administer the challenge, with specific instructions to be fair.

That would happen after the final challenge. We're still discussing the preliminary.

We still do not have your claim. I have to ask you to please stop wasting my time and give us your claim via e-mail. If you have any question as to what a claim is, please let me know.

Please point out the EXACT problem with the claim. Do you want to hear more audible voices? If you need the voices to be distinct please let me know. If 8 out of 10 agree on what the voices say that is not a judgement it is an agreement. It is accuracy. A percentage.
Honestly, I can't see how a malfunctioning device in a super faraday cage could produce understandable voices? How would it?
There are also computer programs that would remove all human judgement. Do you recommend one of these?
This is how you can help.
Please answer these.
I in no way think you are not bias and I'm sure that your opinionated view will blind your judgment but please prove me wrong!
 
I think that "making voices "appear" on a clean protected and untouched tape" would probably be accepted by the JREF if you could provide objective evidence that this occurred as a result of a paranormal event. Playing a voice on a recording and saying "Prove to me that this is NOT paranormal" is not the same as providing objective evidence.

Clear, concise, correct.




As a reminder to everyone: Please keep in mind that this thread is moderated and posts will take some time to become displayed. Therefore, responses could sometimes get delayed due to the respective posts' availability for all to read.
 
Yes it is! :)
Do you feel that making voices "appear' on a clean protected and untouched tape as EVER being accepted by the JREF?


In this thread, I have already offered a protocol that does exactly this. It has not been accepted by the JREF but others in this thread thought it was a pretty solid start.
 
"Something" where there is supposed to be "Nothing" is Paranormal by definition. It can not be scientifically explained.
Why do you think that? All it means is that 'something' is present. It's the process that matters.

If I carry an orange to my kitchen table, it is no surprise. But if I teleport the orange, it is quite a surprise. And if I change the salt shaker into an orange, it's startling .

But we still have an orange on the table in all three cases.
 
There are scientifically explainable ways to do this. There are magic tricks on the market that do this, for example. We live in a world with all kinds of ways of transmitting pictures and voices (TV, Bluetooth, cell phones, IR, radio, etc) in an invisible manner. And with so many electronic devices in play, it would be a cinch to sneak a voice or image onto the recorder. That's why so far what you described isn't appropriate for the MDC. You've given few if any essential details, and from what you've said so far it sounds entirely explainable by science. What we need is a testable, paranormal claim.

Dave, if you don't follow the rules and continue to nitpick, it will likely appear to the world that you made a claim that you can't back up. If you really have a paranormal claim, follow the rules and apply. Of course you can't proceed if you don't follow the rules!

You are misinformed. There are NO marketed effects that can do this in a super faraday cage. If you can prove it then I will agree, but you CAN'T. You are just blowing smoke like the rest. YOU CAN"T DO IT AND NEITHER CAN ANYONE ELSE .... IF SO ...PROVE IT OR BUTT OUT!
 
Professor, I noticed you didn't adress this point.

Has anyone ruled out the possibility of ultra-sonic trickery?


I asked this question because there are definitely some ultra-sonic shenanigans going on in Hans-Otto's machine. That's what I really meant by 'interesting'.
 
Please point out the EXACT problem with the claim.

There is no paranormal claim. Please tell us exactly and concisely, what your claim is.

Saying that you'll have a whole bunch of electronic gear, and then record something (which you haven't defined) which isn't scientifically explainable, is not a valid claim. If you read the rules and responses on this thread, you'd know that.

What is it that isn't scientifically explainable? For the millionth time, there are known, scientific ways to sneak pictures and sounds on a recording. Where's the paranormal part? The more you evade that critical question, the more you resemble someone who doesn't really have a paranormal claim.
 
Dave, I have a suggetion for a claim:

Voices are put on a recording device by other means than audio and magnetism. It is not audible to other people or other recording devices on the site.

The recording device is put in a soundproof box in a faraday cage. If the recording device playbacks a voice with a mutually agreed upon text/ sequence, this constitutes a success.
 
I am sure most posters do not understand what Dave is going on about.

That is in my opinion because he has not corrected the misunderstanding that this is not the type of recorded evidence that needs subjective interpretation.
Such as you would expect to get from the EVP crowd for example.

This is not the scratchy open to debate type of recording most people have heard and or seen via white noise transmissions etc.

Jeff asks about a voice on a recorder and the reply of Oh it malfunctioned.
I would offer that complete sentences are a bit hard to explain away as a malfunction.
(Use several different makes of recorders to rule out malfunction.)

My suggestion would be to have 100 people listen to what is recorded and have them repeat or right down what they heard.

If they all say the same thing I would offer that it is entirely self evident.

Just my opinion but I think the use of several new recorders of different makes some digital some tape would rule out a gaff.

Best Wishes,

Jim
 
Please point out the EXACT problem with the claim.
I have not seen your claim yet.
Do you want to hear more audible voices? If you need the voices to be distinct please let me know. If 8 out of 10 agree on what the voices say that is not a judgement it is an agreement. It is accuracy. A percentage.
It's a judgment. They are not allowed by the rules of the challenge.
Honestly, I can't see how a malfunctioning device in a super faraday cage could produce understandable voices? How would it?
Much the same way a Franks Box works.
There are also computer programs that would remove all human judgement. Do you recommend one of these?
I don't know what you're talking about.
This is how you can help.
Please answer these.
I in no way think you are not bias and I'm sure that your opinionated view will blind your judgment but please prove me wrong!
You are claiming that I am biased, and by the very nature of the challenge, I am. The JREF is challenging you to prove what you say you can do. It's an adversarial arrangement. This is why we must have an unambiguous result.

At this point though, we still don't know what you are saying you can do.
 
Please point out the EXACT problem with the claim.

Ok. Here goes:

...
If 8 out of 10 agree on what the voices say that is not a judgement it is an agreement.
...

Wrong.

Self-evident means self-evident. Not eight out of ten, not nine out of ten, not ten out of ten.

Self-evident means: Defined before the test. By you. And then agreed upon mutually.
 
Your intiail application-as per the challenge application thread-stated questions would be asked and correct answers recieved.
Is this no longer the case?
Im sure a protocol could be easily established with a set of questions provided by JREF.

Voices on a tape.Still isn't paranormal.I want proof they are paranormal entities! How do you propose to do this?
 
My suggestion would be to have 100 people listen to what is recorded and have them repeat or right down what they heard.

If they all say the same thing I would offer that it is entirely self evident.

OK, let's say the voice says "Hello," and all 100 people agree that they hear "Hello." Where's the paranormal part? I can sneak a voice onto a tape in a tape recorder, but that is not paranormal, it is entirely scientifically explainable.

Jim, since Dave can't do it, maybe you can help. How is Dave's objectively paranormal? There are many magicians and scientists and others who can secretly get audio or video onto a recorder--clearly that is not paranormal. So what makes Dave's "claim" paranormal?
 
he has not corrected the misunderstanding that this is not the type of recorded evidence that needs subjective interpretation.

It's not really that this is a misunderstanding, Jim.

This is an issue where it needs to be specified in the claim. If it's supposed to be a tape full of dead celebrities singing "Kum Ba Ya" or Carl Sagan going on about how he was wrong, and there is a Heaven... whatever... this need to be specified. Will the voice answer questions known only to unbiased observers, and will it do so in a clear fashion? Will the voice be able to address questioners by name without introductions?

A claim of "Something" could be interpreted to mean "Anything" and as such is not suitable for testing.
 
There are NO marketed effects

It is worth noting that Mr. Koenig has felt the need to include the qualifier 'marketed' in his assertion.

a super faraday cage.

Your definition of this is, sadly, lacking.

If you can prove it then I will agree, but you CAN'T. You are just blowing smoke like the rest. YOU CAN"T DO IT AND NEITHER CAN ANYONE ELSE .... IF SO ...PROVE IT OR BUTT OUT!

Mr. Koenig, attempts to shift the burden of proof are not appropriate. You are the claimant; the burden of proof rests solely on you, not the JREF. But before any of that comes to issue, you need to make a specific, testable claim about your own paranormal abilities -- something you haven't done yet.
 
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