Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[Jonnyclueless]

As far as willie goes, I don't know if he reported smelling Kerosine, but 64 people reported it, including people in the basement. Seeing as Willie has been caught in several lies, I am sure you would chose to believe him over anyone else seeing as honesty is far from your intention here. Along with your brazilian rain drop nonsense, your complete misunderstanding of how sound works, and the other incredible errors that you keep ignoring.

 

[thewholesoul]

TWS, if there were bombs in the basement, why did the buildings collapse from the impact zones?

your assuming that the explosives were planted to cut the core columns, i dont make that assumption.

besides what caused the devastation in the basement precedes the question why explosives were planted.

peace

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Except there were no explosives planted. And the reason you feel the devastation precedes it is because you know you don't have one shred of evidence to support your believe that bombs were planted. And you can't because as soon as you go into it, you can't do it without looking like an idiot. No one can. Because it's an absurd claim.

The point is VERY important since setting off explosives in the basement would be completely pointless and only risk exposing the people who did it. Not to mention they would get caught because explosives would leave tell tale signs that cannot be avoided.

The biggest mistake TWS makes, which has been pointed out in great detail is the sound. The sound is his whole basis that an event happened before the plane hit. But as pointed out, the sound was not traveling through open air, it was traveling through material. And thus the source and the perception of the location of the source are not going to be the same. The perception is going to be in what ever direction that the listeners body is coupled to the material that the sound is traveling through. Now, I don't know how people ride elevators on TWS's planet. But here we don't stand on the ceiling. Gravity prevents that from happening, so we stand on the floor and our bodies are coupled to the floor. Thus no matter where the SP waves from the source come from, they will always travel through the material and up through our feet. If we lived on TWS's planet where gravity works backwards and we stand on the ceiling, then they would have thought the sound came from above.

And no need to even go back over the nonsense argument about the speed of falling droplets. I am sure TWS would prefer not to go back to that debacle.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

your assuming that the explosives were planted to cut the core columns, i dont make that assumption.

besides what caused the devastation in the basement precedes the question why explosives were planted.

peace

It makes every bit of difference because it massively complicates your argument... Clarify for me exactly why the government would so perfectly be able to import and hide these explosives and then for no foreseeable reason detonate them immediately before the plane impacts only to risk exposng their entire plot by none other than their own hands?

Wasn't your argument about the towers being demolished by explosives? Then why in blue hell are you arguing bombs in the basement if the bombs you're claiming were in there were not for the express purpose of demolishing the towers? Actually I think I have a good grasp on why you're no longer arguing for that and instead going along with an unkown type of reasoning.

the damage was done to the basement when Griffith and Cruz were still in car 50, we know this because Mike Pecararo helped rescue them from the elevator.

how could a jet fuel fireball pass over them without being detected?

how could the correct fuel/air ration pass over them without being detected?

Perhaps it wasn't provided by the witnesses themselves? Who knows? If we go by this line of reasoning then would you assume that the fumes did not arrive at all in some of the upper floors in locations near the freight elevator shaft?

Pecararo however does report having smelled kerosene in his office in the 2nd sub-basement as detailed here:

Mike Pecoraro, an engineer who is part of the crew that services the WTC complex, is at work in the mechanical shop in the second subbasement of the north WTC tower when it is hit. When the room he is in starts filling with white smoke and he can smell kerosene (jet fuel), he heads up stairs with a co-worker towards a small machine shop on the C level.

Having used his testimony regarding the door, and the basement damage you should be familiar with his testimony. I'm curious as to why the above was left out. Or have you already explained it?

only logical answer to my mind, is that whatever inflicted damage in the basement did not originate from the elevator shafts.

I don't think you understand the basic physics involved in what happens to a structure when it is hit head on by a projectile, needless to say before 9/11 it'd never happened before to a building this large. I've told you on multiple occasions that the wind is capable of causing a limited degree of swaying of the structure.

Keep in mind that the energy, that is the forces applied by wind are spread across the entire face of the structure, whereas in the case of the impacting plane all of the kinetic energy is focused into one area in what would equate to applying a force at the end of a cantilevered beam. In this context, we'd then be discussing torque and topics all around it. I'm no physicist that can quantify the force involved but I can differentiate between the rough differences in magnitude when making the comparison. You have far paid no attention to either as far as I am able to see.

if you are unable to intelligently answer the above questions i'm calling victory!!

Well after all intelligence is subjective, but go on ahead and toot your little horn

 

[Norseman]

only logical answer to my mind, is that whatever inflicted damage in the basement did not originate from the elevator shafts.

No, the available information and a bit of critical thinking points to the fact that it indeed did originate from the elevator shafts, and that it was a consequence of Flight 11's impact and nothing else, as has been shown to you repeatedly throughout this thread thewholesoul.

Here are couple of fresh accounts in addition to the accounts Mark Roberts has assembled on his page with accounts from WTC 1. First another account from McCabe:

At about 8:45 a.m., he was in the refrigeration plant of the B5 level when he suddenly felt the building shake. An instant later, a door to his left was blown off its hinges. Boris Bronsteyn, his colleague, and a 30-year veteran, was taking readings nearby. The freight elevator shaft exploded into the area where they were. (Later Ed would learn that the jet fuel had filled the elevator shaft causing the explosion.) Ed walked up to the door and tried to open it but it was jammed, but he was able to force it open. Entering the smoke filled office of Turner Construction, he saw that all of the office partitions within 50 feet were blown down by the force of the explosion. He helped several people who were bleeding and burned.

Source: Operating Engineers in Action at the World Trade Center Disaster
There is more on the evacuation at the link.

From inside Turner construction we have this short account:

Bianca Figueroa was four stories below ground in One World Trade Center when she remembers hearing "some kind of crashing, almost like the elevator had fallen in the shaft."

The blast blew out the walls, briefly blocking her exit. Then a maintenance worker opened a passageway through the refrigeration room.

"I was the first to get out," said Figueroa, a single mom with a 15-month-old. Figueroa works at Turner Construction Co.

Source: AMID BLOODSHED, A LUCKY FEW

In addition to this we have the well known account by McCabe:

I was in the refrigeration plant in tower 1 sub basement 4.I was passing through when I felt a slight shifting of the building.I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant.

Source: http://old.911digitalarchive.org/stories/details/936

The significance of the two accounts by McCabe is that they shows a significant time delay between shaking/shifting of the building and the door into the refrigeration plant being blown off its hinges. The shaking/shifting of the building is consistent with the aircraft impact. And the door being blown off its hinges some time later is consistent with the the arrival of the jet fuel fireball coming down the elevator shafts. Note that when McCabe says it took 30 seconds, that is just what he felt, it could have been 10 seconds or it could be 15 seconds or some other number.

In the figure below I have put a red circle around the two elevator shafts that continued all the way up to the impact zone. The shaft with blue color was the #50 freight elevator shaft, while the shaft colored green contained elevators #6 and #7. The figure is a composite of two different drawings, the lower half shows the B5 level, while the upper half shows the B4 level. The evacuation route of the victims and McCabe through the Path station is marked with a blue line. Click for a larger view.



Originals can be found here at the truth site 9 - 1 1 R e s e a r c h:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/table.html

They are labled:
- FloorPlanAtElevation264B4Level
- FloorPlanAtElevations250And253B5Level

To readers unfamiliar with the blueprints note that the drawings labeled:
- ServiceLevel... = B1
- SubLevel1... = B2
- SubLevel2... = B3
- etc...

 

[Norseman]

The World Trade Centre PATH Station Cave-in and Akbar's Cafe

A few posts back thewholesoul mentioned the cave-in at the PATH station. This something that the truthers love to bring up as evidence of their non existent bombs. Their source for this is the port authority transcripts:

PAPD OFFICER 33: Myself and (Inaudible) to the Trade Centre responding with scott packs to the B-4 level. There's a report of a cave-in, and people trapped.

PAPD OFFICER DESK: Roger, three-three and eight-two Houston, World Trade responding B-4 level on a report of a cave-in

PAPD OFFICER: ESU units, do you copy?

PAPD OFFICER 33: Three-three, desk.

PAPD OFFICER DESK: Go, three-three.

PAPD OFFICER 33: There's also been a cave-in at the platform of the PATH plaza...
there's a live electrical, and water running. Turn off the power in that area.

Source: Transcript 10: Path - Ch. 21 - Radio Trainmaster (R2)

But what exactly was that cave in? It turns out that parts of the wall inside Akbar's cafe was breached by the jet fuel deflagration on the B-4 level of WTC 1.

Akbar's Cafe was down on the B-4 level of the PATH station. The train platforms were down on B-5. It was right in front of the escalators leading up to the Concourse level. The escalators are visible on the left side of the second picture. Click pictures to enlarge.


Source first picture is: http://www.panynj.gov/drp/pdfdocs/env/Scoping Presentation.pdf
Source for the second picture I have been unable to relocate.

The figure below shows the approximate position of Akbar's Cafe. The back wall of the cafe was the east basement wall of WTC 1. Click figure to enlarge:


Source: See post #725

This how a guest inside the cafe experienced it:

James Cutler, a 31-year-old insurance broker, was in the Akbar restaurant on the ground floor of the World Trade Center when he heard “boom, boom, boom,” he recalls. In seconds, the kitchen doors blew open, smoke and ash poured into the restaurant and the ceiling collapsed. Mr. Cutler didn’t know what had happened yet, but he found himself standing among bodies strewn across the floor. “It was mayhem,” he says.

Source: http://www.asne.org/index.cfm?ID=3426

This is how the manager described it:

Bhojwani was outside at a space where the restaurant sold coffee and snacks to commuters who had time only to pick up something to go. It was a very busy time.

Right then the newly installed alarm system went off. It was a sound nobody could ignore, like a bunch of police sirens sounding at once.

Bhojwani thought the alarm had probably been set off by smoke detectors from a malfunctioning stove. He ran inside to reset the alarm panel and stopped in his tracks. The walk-in refrigerated room where perishable foods were stored had partly collapsed.

"The whole thing was down," he said. "And the fire alarm was so loud and the fire brigade and police guys were like, 'You got to evacuate.' So we left everything as it was and ran."

Source: http://in.rediff.com/us/2001/sep/15ny5.htm

There is no additional accounts of any damage by other eyewitnesses down in the PATH Station. McCabe does not mention anything significant when he evacuated through the station, se post #725 above.

Here some additional accounts from the station that all points to the cafe as the source.

Port Authority Police Officer Sgt. M. Duane
"On September 11, 2001, I was the PATH New York patrol sergeant during the 6x2 tour. when the first plane struck One WTC I was on the PATH concourse with P.O. W. Stuart. Although P.O. Stuart and I did not feel the impact of the plane, we heard the fire alarms activated in Akbars Restaurant behind us. As we took a few steps to investigate the alarms, we saw WTC P.O.s Finnegan, Fitzpatrick and Amoroso exiting the PATH E-room running towards the escalators. I inquiered about the nature of their call and one officer stated they had a report of an explosion in One WTC. P.O. Stuart and I proceeded up the escalators with the WTC officers."

Source: Port Authority Reports for 9/11: Police Reports, Group 1

When I got off the PATH train at WTC (World Trade Center), I smelled something funny but wasn't sure what it was. I assumed something was going on in one of the tunnels and continued on as normal. I took the first set of escalators up to the regular subway level (PATH trains always run under the subway). It looked a little hazy and I definitely knew it was smoke that I was smelling. There is a restaurant at that level and I saw a flashing fire alarm light going off there, so I thought they must have burned some food pretty bad or even started a fire.

As I was walking to the next set of escalators that lead to the WTC mall at ground level, people behind me started running and yelling to "get out." There were a couple of building security and fire wardens telling all the people running up the 2 flights of escalators to "remain calm but get to the nearest exit."

Source: Source: Tonya Young -- witness, survivor World Trade Center disaster 9/11/2001

As I got out of the PATH train (which runs through the bowels of the WTC) I could smell something burning. There is a restaurant at the same level and I thought they must have had a minor accident. Sure enough, the fire alarm lights were blinking. People usually ignore these lights as these are a frequent occurrence. Of course, people at the restaurant were ignoring the alarm.

I took the escalator that takes me to street level. As we approached that level, I suddenly saw people on the escalator above me running away; there was a great deal of commotion and shouting. I thought it must be a hostage situation and dashed toward the exit I usually take. I saw a man being supported by a policeman. It looked like he was bleeding. I assumed he had been shot and took off like a mad man. I slowed down when I realised that all the shops around me were closed -- and the scene outside the glass door some 50 feet before me was a little murky. There appeared to be some smoke outside. I wasn't sure what was happening.

Soruce: The Rediff Special/ Sai Narasimham

My normal commute involves taking the PATH train from New Jersey to WTC in New York. I reached WTC around 8:57 am and as soon as the doors opened we were engulfed by some chemical that smelled like kerosene and smoke. Not realizing what had happened I walked up the escalator to the ground floor of the WTC where Police officers were directing all commuters to leave the building as soon as possible.

Source: BBC News

Note that the three train passengers mentioned smelling smoke or kerosene. In addition the passengers also mentions other passengers running without any apparent reason. This is also something the truthers use in connection with the PATH Station cave-in to indicate that it must have been the cave-in that caused them to panic. May take is that some could have been scared by the sight of the victims being evacuated from the Turner Construction office, see post #725. Or that some passengers were told on their cellphones that WTC 1 had been hit and became frightened, wanting to get out as quickly as possible.

The train service into the station was shut down shortly after WTC 1 was hit.

This the essence of quit a lot of googling earlier this year.

 

[Norseman]

Returning back to elevator #50 with Marlene Cruze and Arthuro Griffith there is an account in NIST NCSTAR 1-8 that gives us a bit more details on what happened in their shaft:

The employee was working on the 7th floor of WTC 1 when the aircraft hit the building. The building shook and continued to shake. The interviewee said that the 50 Car elevator shaft was located just beyond the room’s wall where he was working. He heard the elevator falling and
fly past his location. He heard people inside the elevator when it went past him. Then he heard the elevator crash to the bottom of the shaft, and he heard the elevator cables falling down the shaft after the 50 Car fell. A second explosion followed, and something came through the wall of the room. A fireball came into the room from the elevator shaft. The building had moved, and the room’s door became jammed. Fire gasses that came into the room took his breath away, and when the interviewee finally got out of the room he collapsed on the corridor floor. Building occupants helped him up and helped to carry him out of the building. Two of the interviewee’s associates were injured by flying concrete block on the B2 and/or B4 levels when the 50 Car elevator crashed to the bottom of WTC 1.

The interested reader can find the accounts by Marlene Cruz and Arturo Griffith here:
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb

I am quiet certain that both Marlene Cruz and Arturo Griffith were inside on the floor of their elevator car when the fireball arrived, quiet simply because it would not have been any time for anyone to rescue them out before the jet fuel fireball arrived. But that they were saved by the concrete and debris that covered them. I do not see any conflict in claiming this even though Arturo in the account below claims that they were rescued before a ball of fire came down the shaft. Because the fireball he mentions could very well have been burning debris falling down from the impact floors above. Every thing else in his account indicates that this took place after the jet fuel fireball went down the shaft. Of course, thewholesoul is going to deny that this is possible at all.

Arturo Griffith was in a freight elevator when the building was attacked. The elevator dropped to B1 (the basement level), fell below the landing. He was trapped in the elevator beneath debris and unconscious. He remembers seeing a beam of light. He called out. The smoke was so thick; Arturo could not see his own hand. So his rescuers had to follow his voice to find him.

'I don't know who saved me. It was so black and smoky. I couldn't see nothin',' Arturo said. 'When they got me out, I told them there was someone else down there, a woman. They went back to get her. Seconds after they pulled her out, a ball of fire came down the shaft. They almost got killed.'
http://web.archive.org/web/20021101235538/http://911digitalarchive.org/seiu/details/54

 

[Norseman]

By the way its worth noting that new information has come to light regarding the location of Felipe David. He was not as we all thought standing beside the elevator on B1, rather he was inside his office on B2 when the incident happened. http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=9-zHiGb5KFk but i am positive you will dispute this so lets move on.

Have you read the accounts of Kenny Johannemann and Anthony Saltalamacchia? you find them here thewholesoul:
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb

Kenny Johannemann could have seen David in front of a blown out elevator door and thought that David was inside an elevator when he was burned. Anyway David was most likely on B1 when he was burned.

Rodriguez is no longer a reliable source as pointed out numerous times on this forum.

 

[Norseman]

With this I see no point in any further discussions with thewholesoul, he is way beyond the point where he should have at the very least accepted that his position has been loaded down with tons of reasonable doubt, to be polite. To continue would just be to recycle the same arguments page after page.

 

[funk de fino]

Also to add to this. Willie Rod mentioned two rumbles in his CNN interview.

"We heard a loud rumble, then all of a sudden we heard another rumble like someone moving a whole lot of furniture," Rodriguez said. "And then the elevator opened and a man came into our office and all of his skin was off."

So Willie is a witness to two rumbles but no explosions. The man with missing skin was not in a blast from explosives he has been burned. If it had been a blast from an explosive the elevator door would not still be operating.

One rumble is impact of plane felt through building and the other will be the fuel deflagaration.

 

[thewholesoul]

With this I see no point in any further discussions with thewholesoul, he is way beyond the point where he should have at the very least accepted that his position has been loaded down with tons of reasonable doubt, to be polite.

i will carefully respond to your final posts despite your unwillingness to continue.

To continue would just be to recycle the same arguments page after page.

you have changed your arguments page after page from backdrafts, to falling debris, to shockwaves...

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

David was most likely on B1 when he was burned.

Rodriguez is no longer a reliable source as pointed out numerous times on this forum.

So you do not accept the ‘new information’ that Felipe David was inside his office on B2 because you distrust William Rodriguez. Fine but I fail to see how it serves your position?

(1) It is a fact that a falling elevator is an audibly detectable event. Mark Roberts notes that

26 people on 17 levels below the impact zones reported fallen elevators

. I will assume that you accept this fact.

Felipe did not hear car 50 falling. This means that whatever burnt felipe occured below car 50 and before it reached B1.

(2) It is a fact that the jet fuel could not pass car 50 before it reached B1. You have stated that you accept this fact:

My view has always been that the jet fuel fireball arrived after elevator car #50 reached B1/B2.

However it is your belief that Felipe was burnt be a fuel deflagration.

This results in a conflict between fact and belief.

The fact that falling elevators are audible events, and the fact that jet fuel could not pass car 50 before it reached B1 conflicts with your strongly held belief that what burnt Felipe was a fuel deflagration.

Please think about that for a second Norseman, you refuse to abandon your belief that a fuel deflagration burnt felipe eventhough TWO facts that you yourself accept as true conflict with this belief. why is that?

Does it not make sense that if Philip Morelli, beside the freight elevator shaft, heard car 50 falling, that Felipe standing in front of the freight elevator shaft would also hear it? The fact Felipe did not hear it suggests to me that perhaps he was, like rodriguez recently claims, inside his office on B2, a significant distance from the elevator shaft door.

i know you are not going to respond, so i want to thank you for allowing me the final word between ourselves on this thread.

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

Why would I concede something that hasn't been shown to be true?

When has it be shown that unignited jet fuel can fall 90 floors and then deflagrate?

But i can show my argument to be true because it is based on fact.

Fact#1: [Upon impact] Elevator cables are severed + jet fuel droplets descend shafts

Source:
(1a) http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf(PDF pg. 160)

(1b) http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf (2.4)

(1c) http://911stories.googlepages.com/de...rsioninthetowe http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf(PDF pg. 160)

Fact#2: Car 50 falls approx. 17 floors taking no more than 5s to reach B1

Source:
(2a) “Well, I was on my way from B-2 to 49th floor. And as I took off, it was amount it was a matter of seconds -- five, six, seven seconds” http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...6/lklw.00.html

(2b) “The emergency brakes caught after 15 or 16 floors” http://www.usatoday.com/life/sept11/...riffiths_x.htm

(2c) Freight elevator cars in the WTC had a max speed of 10m/s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevato...ist_mechanisms

If it takes a freight elevator with cables 7 seconds to descend 18 floors it will take no more than 5 seconds with cables cut. Emergency brakes activate when overspeed (freefall) is reached http://www.hkaconsulting.com/Pages/Glossary.html

Fact#3: Jet fuel “droplets” will arrive a significant amount of time after car 50 reached B1

Source:
(3a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain

(3b) http://911stories.googlepages.com/comparisonofwitnessaccountstorodriguezst2

(3c) http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/...=1520-0469&volume=027&issue=01&page=0101&ct=1

(3d) http://www.shorstmeyer.com/wxfaqs/float/dropdeform.html

I am assuming that jet fuel droplets will fall at approximately the same time as a rain droplet. Given that kerosene rises when in a glass of water we know that it is a lighter substance, for this reason i would expect its fall time to be marginally slower. In any event for the droplets of jet fuel to reach the sub level basements before car 50 arrived at B1 (5 seconds) it would need to travel 95 floors or 360m/s at no less than 70m/s.

Fact#4: The first basement explosion occured below car 50 and before it reached B1

Source:
(4a) a falling elevator is an audibly detectable event. Mark Roberts notes that

26 people on 17 levels below the impact zones reported fallen elevators

http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethetowers:summaryofwitnessaccounts

(4b) Walking beside freight elevator car 50 Phillip Morelli B4 recalls:

that's when I got blown. The impact of the explosion or whatever happened threw me to the floor. And that’s when everything started happenin'. It knocked me right to the floor. You didn't know what it was, you just assumed something fell over in the loading dock [located on B1]. Something very heavy, something very big. You don't know what happened then all of a sudden you just felt the floor movin' and you get up... the walls, you know now I'm hearing that the main freight car, the elevators, you know what I mean fell down so I was right near the main freight car so I assumed what that was. Then you heard that [the main feight car] comin' towards ya

http://911stories.googlepages.com/in...ccounts,lobb

Based on these facts one will soon reach the conclusion that whatever caused the first basement explosion was not fuel droplets descending 90+ floors. if you can show just one of these facts to be wrong, untrue or incorrect i will be forced to modify this conclusion.

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

I've explained to you that your assumptions are unrealistic.

And i have explained to you why fuel droplets cannot possibly pass a free falling elevator over and over and over again.

The "rational" thing for me to do is to ask a moderator to remove your comments from this one, and I shall if you persist. You are off-topic.

This is what you said in the opening post.

I'd like to try a return to constructive dialogue, and hopefully, bring this to a closure that is satisfying to all. In that spirit, I hereby place myself at your disposal. This thread is a living experiment. Here's how it works: In this thread, I invite anyone -- but principally the Truth Movement -- to post their crucial questions. By that I mean your questions that, if they were to be answered, would convince you that there is no compelling reason to believe in any conspiracy surrounding September 11th. If you post those questions, I will do my level best to answer them... So... any takers? Let's hear what's on your mind.

You never specified a topic, so please re-read your own opening statement before running to the moderator to get “whats on my mind” booted off this thread.

You already have a thread dedicated to your silly assumptions about how the jet fuel couldn't reach the basement for over 30 seconds, and so on.

Do you think droplets of kerosene can fall at 70m/s? Because that is the speed it would need to have to pass an elevator free falling from the 18th floor to the B1 level.

Your counter-argument rests on the unsupported assumption that the maximum falling speed of liquid -- in this case, jet fuel -- is 9 meters per second. This simply isn't true.

No, my counter argument does not rest on the maximum falling speed of jet fuel. Besides can you cite me an experiment with kerosene droplets that proves this lighter substance falls faster than rain droplets?

This is my last post to you mackey, i do not expect a response and frankly i dont care. The fact you are now threatening to kick me off the thread lets me know exactly what you mean by “offer to the Truth movement: lets settle it”

peace

 

[pomeroo]

And i have explained to you why fuel droplets cannot possibly pass a free falling elevator over and over and over again.



This is what you said in the opening post.



You never specified a topic, so please re-read your own opening statement before running to the moderator to get “whats on my mind” booted off this thread.



Do you think droplets of kerosene can fall at 70m/s? Because that is the speed it would need to have to pass an elevator free falling from the 18th floor to the B1 level.



No, my counter argument does not rest on the maximum falling speed of jet fuel. Besides can you cite me an experiment with kerosene droplets that proves this lighter substance falls faster than rain droplets?

This is my last post to you mackey, i do not expect a response and frankly i dont care. The fact you are now threatening to kick me off the thread lets me know exactly what you mean by “offer to the Truth movement: lets settle it”

peace

"Droplets" of kerosene? Gee, "droplets"? It all sounds so innocent!

 

[Dog Town]

Bump for Kreel.

For an elevator’s cables to be cut and result in dropping the car to the bottom of the shaft, the cables would need to have been in the aircraft impact debris path, floors 93 through 98 in WTC 1 or floors 78 through 83 in WTC 2. Inspection of the elevator riser diagram and architectural floor plans for WTC 1 shows that the following elevators met these criteria: cars 81 through 86 (Bank B) and 87 through 92 (Bank C), local cars in Zone III; car 50, the freight elevator, and car 6, the Zone III shuttle. … Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so. http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf(PDF pg. 160)

http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts

 

[Dog Town]

One last bump, since another thread is getting derailed by Kreel.

 

[bio]

Bump for Kreel.


http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts

from there:
"The yellow area indicates the large #6 and #7 elevators, which led to Windows on the World in the north tower (WTC 1) and to the observation deck in the south tower (WTC 2). This shaft is continuous from the impact zones to sublevel B4, where several people within the core area were injured by the jet fuel blast, and where building engineer Edward McCabe said the blast came "about 30 seconds" after he felt the building shift."

How could the magic fireball shot down shaft 6/7 to the core B4, when the cars of 6,7 were parked on B2, and were burned out according to witness accounts? There were an "elevator modernization program" , therefore 6, 7 were not working these days.

 

[WildCat]

How could the magic fireball shot down shaft 6/7 to the core B4, when the cars of 6,7 were parked on B2, and were burned out according to witness accounts? There were an "elevator modernization program" , therefore 6, 7 were not working these days.

Did it ever dawn on you that the fuel went down the shaft in liquid form, and burst into flame once inside the shaft?

 

[leftysergeant]

How could the magic fireball shot down shaft 6/7 to the core B4, when the cars of 6,7 were parked on B2, and were burned out according to witness accounts? There were an "elevator modernization program" , therefore 6, 7 were not working these days.

The fuel came down in an aerosolized or vaporized state, wafting around the parked cars as gases and aerosols are known to do with ease. Where is the mystery here?