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Psychic Samurai applies for MDC...apparently...

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I understand your frustration here Jim. I also feel it.
The catch 22 seems to BE the word Paranormal.

When I use the Definition given by the JREF as acceptable.....


2.2 What is the definition of “paranormal” in regards to the Challenge?

Webster’s Online Dictionary defines “paranormal” as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural.”

Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal.

Now Jeff Wagg is asking what "Scientifically" really means.

Do you see the perpetual motion machine here? I'm sure you do.

All you have to do is keep asking for a definition of the last word. Very clever, but not fair.

I'll remind you again that the results of the test must be unambiguous. There can be no judging.. it must be obvious to all, just as the results of a coin toss would be. I have already explained the paranormal definition. If you produce a voice on a recorder, we may not know exactly where it came from, but we could "scientifically" say that someone spoke near it. And then you would say "No, they didn't." And then where would we be?

Where do you need more clarification?
 
Again! The JREF must stand behind it's own definition of Paranormal and not beg the question!

If the JREF waffles on it's own definition, then how can ANYONE demonstrate the Paranormal?

You could ask the many folks who have been tested with us how that got around this problem.

As we do not have a clear understanding of your claim, discussing the definition of paranormal seems premature and unnecessary.
 
Here is my most recent response to Jeff Wagg.
As you can see the negotiations are continuing!

David Koenig to jeff
show details 1:54 PM (2 minutes ago)

Reply

Jeff

You said ...

I know you only from your application. Despite Jim Callahan's
assertions to the contrary, we knew you had applied, and answered the
young man at Dragon*Con to that effect. Randi did not know you had
applied as he only gets involved at the very end of a challenge. Mr.
Callahan has been very dishonest as regards the JREF, and has been
very loud despite his unwillingness to take the challenge. None of
this will have an impact on our negotiations.
---------------------------------------------

If you only know me from my application, then how is it you say "We know who Dave Koenig is. He's a friend of Jim Callahan."?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMrgr1yR3k0
Jim Callahan or our friendship was NOT mentioned at ALL on my application!
You claim here that Jim Callahan is dishonest but your very statement about me seems based on deception.

I'm not sure what deception you're referring to. When I was first made aware of your claim, I was informed that you were a friend of Jim Callahan.
If it is standard procedure for Randi "Not to know" then he should have said just that! "I don't Know. Or "I'm not sure" Or "It's not my job"...
But he Emphatically says "HE HAS NOT APPLIED" and that is NOT THE TRUTH!

To further this problem, even after he is corrected by Alison Smith, he continues to make the false claim both over the phone and on an Itricks podcast AFTER the aplication is officially posted on the JREF Forum! (And AFTER he was corrected by Alison)

Please explain how the Leader of the JREF saying it's a "Pack of Lies" does not effect how I'm treated here?

How does it affect anything? Randi is not involved in this challenge at all.
I also need the Bottom Line Official definition of Paranormal.

Thanks
Dave

I will be going over the rest of the email after Church.
- Show quoted text -

Well, as it's our million, the bottom line is that it has to be something that we feel is paranormal. We've had people claim that guessing two coin tosses in a row is paranormal, and we disagree. As we do not know what your claim is yet, we can't determine if it's paranormal or not.

At any rate, the definition is irrelevant. What can you do? That's all we need to know at this point.
 
Ping says

I have to say that if you can't do anything but produce 'spooky sounds' then I remain unimpressed.

If I produce "Spooky Sounds" that are not Scientifically Explainable, that would be considered Paranormal and I would win the Million. See?

Again, who is the judge of what is "Scientifically Explainable"?

There can be no judge. Once again, the definition is irrelevant at this stage.

Please tell us what your claimed ability is.
 
Please read the post right above yours.
It could be just that simple. :)

We are making the claim as simple as possible. Rest assured that the word Entity was a "Target" and it has been removed, so no more time wasted on that. I appreciate the JREF Forum members for helping me with that part! We are moving right along.

Please remember that what I say has to be totally correct or the JREF will quickly throw it out and keep the million. That I don't want.
In a situation of confusion where people are "STILL" claiming I've never applied, I must preceed very carefully.

I feel that all the help from the predominantly neutral Paranormal Research Groups will be very helpful also.

I'm waiting for the list of the others who want to contribute to my winnings.

Could we please have your claimed ability?
 
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If I produce "Spooky Sounds" that are not Scientifically Explainable, that would be considered Paranormal and I would win the Million. See?


The issue is how you set up the conditions to assure that the sounds are not scientifically explainable.

Suppose I claim that on a certain date, marks will appear on a blank piece of paper. Is that a paranormal event? It depends. There are innumerable completely explainable ways to make marks appear on a piece of paper, from a pencil to photosensitive chemicals to an industrial web printing press. On the other hand, if I could cause or arrange for marks to appear on an ordinary sheet of paper randomly selected from a newly unwrapped ream never handled by me and placed inside a closed lucite box that was built by JREF representatives, in an ordinarily lit windowless room without ever being in the room with the paper and with witnesses watching the paper the whole time and cameras recording me, the witnesses, and the paper the whole time, then I'm pretty sure I could win a million dollars from the JREF.

In that scenario, what would make it qualify as a paranormal event has nothing to do with the shape or content of the marks on the paper, nor where I say the marks come from. It wouldn't matter whether I claim that the marks were the words "Hello Earth" written in Alpha Centauri language by invisible aliens, or a picture of a news headline from the future sent back in time from a time machine I'm planning to build ten years from now, or God's revelation of the Meaning of Life, or a random scribble created by my own powers of molecular telekinesis. What matters is that the marks appear under conditions that rule out all of the non-paranormal explanations of what could have caused them. It's all those details in italics that make the appearance of the marks on the paper a paranormal event.

(You might, as a performer, enjoy the exercise of figuring out why each of the italicized words and phrases is necessary to make the event demonstrably paranormal in this scenario. That is, figure out how marks might be made to appear on the paper by ordinary means in a test in which any given one of the italicized conditions were not enforced. It's fun! Keep in mind that some of the ways might require expertise in chemistry or physics, and some R&D, to perfect.)

I certainly enjoy the comparable mental exercise of imagining all the ways a performer might cause sounds to occur, either audible or recorded on electronic media or both, whose origins were not immediately obvious. For instance, if I were a performing magician, I'd be looking into the possibilities of phased speaker arrays to create dramatic and unfamiliar acoustic phenomena, especially in a site that was (1) outdoors (where more obvious sources of spatially localized sounds, such as speakers hidden in walls, ceiling, chairs, etc could clearly be ruled out), (2) located in an area where I might be able to arrange for access to unlit surrounding areas of forest, private property, bodies of water, or other unsupervised space to place equipment in, and (3) known and arranged by me well in advance. Obviously no Faraday cage or any other measure short of building a fixed structure is going to keep out sound waves. It could make for quite a trick, don't you think? (Kind of expensive, but with hopes of TV deals not to mention the hope of winning a million dollars from the JREF it might be worth some investment.)

Given the impracticality of establishing sufficiently controlled conditions over a square mile or so of outdoor terrain to rule out this and half a dozen other possibilities that come to mind, it is highly unlikely that any audible sounds that are heard (and/or recorded on microphone-equipped electronic devices) in an outdoor setting are ever going to not be scientifically explainable.

Note that "not scientifically explainable" in this context does not mean "the particular method used cannot be established or proven." It means that no known possible means exist that have not been explicitly ruled out in advance. In other words, if strange sounds are heard or recorded around the Devil's Chair this Halloween, it is not up to JREF to prove exactly how the sounds were created by ordinary means, in order to deny you the prize. Instead, it is up to you to negotiate with JREF a protocol under which no such trickery, from off-site phased speaker arrays to a loudspeaker carried overhead on a balloon to a kazoo hidden in a confederate's pocket, is even possible, in order for you to qualify for the challenge in the first place.

Given the apparently insurmountable difficulty of ruling out all possible ordinary means for creating either audible sound or electronic recordings of sound or both, it is understandable that the more practical-minded people here have suggested that you base your claim instead on the content of the sound, such as the ability to receive sound messages that give you information about the contents of sealed containers (if, of course, you have such an ability).

To return to my marks-appearing-on-paper example, if the marks that appear on the paper could be matched to pictures in a series of sealed envelopes, then there would be no need for the closed lucite box, the separate windowless rooms, and so forth. Instead of ruling out all possible ways I could cause marks to appear on paper, I'd only have to rule out all possible ways I could know what's in the envelopes, to qualify for the challenge. That would be a much easier protocol to design and execute.

But I doubt that there is such a thing as a sound that's not scientifically explainable, in an open outdoor area at night. If you disagree you must prove otherwise. You must describe what it is about either the sound itself, or the conditions under which it occurs, that will make it unexplainable.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
We've had people claim that guessing two coin tosses in a row is paranormal, and we disagree.


Your language, Jeff, is inexact and I think might lead to confusion.

Guessing two coin flips in a row may be paranormal, but it is not testable. There is no reasonable test that can differentiate the paranormal power of predicting coin tosses from normal guessing.

Similarly, the mere existence of angels is certainly paranormal but entirely untestable. The "angels" could be devils or ghosts or sufficiently advanced aliens.

I don't think there's any question that The Professor has stated a paranormal claim in that he's claimed that something paranormal will happen. However, he hasn't even begun to state a testable claim - something that self-evidently rules out all explanations other than the paranormal.

By refining this definition, we are able to agree with the professor's definition of paranormal and, thus, remove it as a point of contention. We can then ask him to move on to the explanation of how he intends to test his paranormal claim.

And by "we," I mean "you." And by "claim," I mean "whatever collection of words The Professor has put together." And by "explanation," I mean "arguing about nothing while time goes by."
 
Dave:

To move this forward, I really don't think you need to get bogged down with the semantics of the term "paranormal." Just tell us specifically what you can do. If you can show that dowsing sticks find water, you can have the million--whether you call it paranormal or not. If you can remote view, and show that in a way that rules out trickery--you can have the million.

Yes, generally speaking, "paranormal" means not scientifically explainable. But the problem so far is that what you've described IS scientifically explainable. As Jeff Wagg, who can officially speak for JREF has pointed out, there are known ways to sneak sounds onto an audio recorder, even in a Faraday cage.

Also, if you've read all of the rules and FAQ, you know that some claims aren't testable.

Tell us what you can do, specifically, and we can help with the protocol, or if the claim isn't testable, we can explain why that is. And if that's the case, perhaps you could try something which is testable, like dowsing or remote viewing.
 
The Professor, this is simple to solve. Remove the silly October 31 date part of your claim. No time restriction imposed by you means no time restriction imposed by JREF.

Seems to be more ball in your court.

And don't forget you're short one claim.
 
Dave, I think it would be helpful for you to read this thread, "Paranormal-misnomer?"

The Challenge FAQ is quoted in that thread:

2.2 What is the definition of “paranormal” in regards to the Challenge?
Webster’s Online Dictionary defines “paranormal” as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural.”
Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal.
2.3 Does my claim count as paranormal? Possibly. Read through the JREF forum for a list of previous applicants if you’d like to see whether or not your claim has been tested before. The list can be found at: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=43
Past claims have included: psychic or mediumistic powers, ESP, dowsing, magnetic humans, astrology, faith healing, etc.
If you are submitting a claim that works off a previous assumption, you have to present evidence proving the assumption correct first. For example, a claim of exorcism must have prior proof of the existence of demons, unless the existence of demons would be self-evident during the exorcism. If someone’s head spins ‘round the wrong direction during an exorcism, it is safe to say that demons (or some other entities) are responsible. Projectile vomiting, however, is nasty and probably explainable.
Some claims are, unfortunately, untestable. For example, claiming that you are able to make someone feel happy by talking to them is untestable, because it is impossible to objectively gauge someone’s level of happiness, especially if they have been told that after talking to you they should feel happy.
If your claim is untestable, there is nothing that can be done to alter that status unless you find a new claim or negotiate a protocol in which the results are self-evident and objectively testable.
(bolding added)

If you can come up with a testable demonstration, that's great. If not, we can suggest other abilities that are testable and where protocols have been approved by JREF.
 
Guys,
What if we help TP move forward with his challenge by FORCING him to come up with a paranormal claim?
Since everything has already been suggested and never answered by TP,
My suggestion is this: don't elaborate anymore on protocols, dates, etc. Just write these words (as Jeff said above):

Jeff Wagg said:
Please tell us what your claimed ability is.
 
Again, you set the date. If you think that date is impossible, I've offered two solutions for you.
As The Professor seems to be committed to an event on 31st October, can I repeat my suggestion that you attend it purely as an observer? Once you have a clear idea of what the phenomenon in question actually consists of and recordings to examine, it should be much easier to determine if it qualifies as paranormal and is testable within the terms of the challenge. Negotiations on a test protocol and success criteria can then begin, and a date set for the actual test.
 
Depending on how Jeff is calculating this time restraint,I make it you have 4 days left Professor.
Been nice knowing you. :)
 
As The Professor seems to be committed to an event on 31st October, can I repeat my suggestion that you attend it purely as an observer? Once you have a clear idea of what the phenomenon in question actually consists of and recordings to examine, it should be much easier to determine if it qualifies as paranormal and is testable within the terms of the challenge. Negotiations on a test protocol and success criteria can then begin, and a date set for the actual test.
Absolutely not. If JREF shows up as an observer, it will be used as propaganda for whatever type of show The Professor will be putting on.
 
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