Why does FAA/Norad animation show NoC flightpath?

Don't even try to suggest tape and EEPROM is the same thing.

Don't even try to suggest the impact wiped out a few seconds of data.

The best thing you can do is learn how EEPROM works, then come back
with ANOTHER BS theory...because this one isn't working.

You started off with a six second data missing LIE, and now that I caught
you in a horrid contradiction, you are changing to Flash memory junk.

Funny stuff. How many holes do you have in your theories?


Clarification:
Why are the speeds and start of 330 turn in conflict with what the 9/11 Commission Sources? IE: the NTSB Flight Path Study
 
Jesus, Turbo, a little less arrogant bluster and a little more substantive debate would be nice. You DO see how patient and polite R.Mackey is being, right?

Sorry, Twin you are correct.

I do tend to get a little heated.

I'll be more civil as Mackey has been fairly calm.
 
Don't even try to suggest tape and EEPROM is the same thing.

I didn't. Please re-read more carefully.

Don't even try to suggest the impact wiped out a few seconds of data.

Why not? There are many reasons why this could happen -- either data was still in transit, other damage cut power to the device or otherwise interfered with the DFDAU, or the memory of the FDR itself was damaged in the crash.

Do you know what happens to flash memory when you're writing to it, and you experience a spike or loss of power at that instant?

The best thing you can do is learn how EEPROM works, then come back
with ANOTHER BS theory...because this one isn't working.

As I said before, this "BS theory" has nothing to do with the FDR type itself. I'm merely explaining to you that your impact time, apparently sourced from NTSB and nowhere else, does not appear to be reliable to +/- 1 second, which is the way you're using it. I'm also explaining that the trajectory you hypothesize makes no sense, and that I've already provided a superior, and eminently plausible, alternative.

Nothing in that has anything to do with the properties of flash memory. It's quite plain that you are merely attempting to divert the conversation.

You started off with a six second data missing LIE, and now that I caught
you in a horrid contradiction, you are changing to Flash memory junk.

I still do not know what LIE or horrid contradiction you are talking about. The data is missing from the FDR logs themselves. I haven't isolated the precise cause of why, but that isn't the point, since there are numerous candidates. What matters is the data that we do have, and that data does end before impact.

Funny stuff. How many holes do you have in your theories?

I'm waiting for you to find them. To the best of my knowledge, none.

Clarification:
Why are the speeds and start of 330 turn in conflict with what the 9/11 Commission Sources? IE: the NTSB Flight Path Study

Are they actually in conflict, or are you simply applying false precision? I can't answer your question without more specifics. Give me references, page numbers, actual speeds, and maybe I can figure it out. I'm betting you're simply confused.
 
Don't even try to suggest tape and EEPROM is the same thing.

Don't even try to suggest the impact wiped out a few seconds of data.

The best thing you can do is learn how EEPROM works, then come back
with ANOTHER BS theory...because this one isn't working.

You started off with a six second data missing LIE, and now that I caught
you in a horrid contradiction, you are changing to Flash memory junk.

Funny stuff. How many holes do you have in your theories?

Clarification:
Why are the speeds and start of 330 turn in conflict with what the 9/11 Commission Sources? IE: the NTSB Flight Path Study

The security video proves there is data missing

The witness prove there is data missing

The physical evidence proves there is data missing

John Farmer has proved there is data missing

What you have to do is prove it is not missing, contact the NTSB and ask them

Why are there pages of parameters not recorded or verified recorded in the FDR report? This is another question you have failed to answer? What has caused this missing or not verified parameters to be missing from the data?

Got an FDR guy from your list with my experience yet? I have asked a few times and none on any list you have provided meet the grade. Do you have some hidden away?
 
Clarification:
Why are the speeds and start of 330 turn in conflict with what the 9/11 Commission Sources? IE: the NTSB Flight Path Study
Why? You forgot to say the speeds and pages of your source for you next lack of understanding point on 9/11.

You must be specific, and more technical. Right now you are full of hearsay and your big lie.
 
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16.5 - I already told you I don't believe your silly flight path, and I'm not
going to calculate a single digit to play your game. THat's not what happened,
and it doesn't follow the FDR data. Period.

Awesome!! Yeah baby! I agree, it IS a silly flight path!! It is the CIT's North of Citgo flight path. It is an impossible flight path!!!

Look up at the subject of this Thread: Why Does the FAA/NORAD animation show the NOC flightpath?

Why indeed, because as you yourself state: it is a silly flight path!!

May I quote you on that? Hell, I don't care, I am going to quote you anyway!

Pilots For Truth call the North of CITGO flight path "silly."

Hey Dom, you better get your ass back in this thread, PFT is carving your boy's "silly" flight path right the hell up!!!
 
Why not? There are many reasons why this could happen -- either data was still in transit

Nope. CRC, parity, etc. require the full word to be received and checked
before writing to CPM. Values stored in CPM are time stamped along
with the corresponding parameters.

, other damage cut power to the device or otherwise interfered with the DFDAU

What damage? The data written to CPM is already secure and verified.
Power to the FDAU is not lost instantly upon impact, but even then
the Alititude shows too high at :45.

, or the memory of the FDR itself was damaged in the crash.

Nope. You can't wipe out certain seconds, or words, or parameters.

The FDR is rated up to 3400 G's and temperatures well above jet fuel.

As explained, the Flash memory itself requires address lines and electricity
applied for an extended period of time to erase the contents.

Sudden impacts, or loss of power do not contribute to the erease process
of EEPROM.

Do you know what happens to flash memory when you're writing to it, and you experience a spike or loss of power at that instant?

Spikes: Regulated by circuitry usually in the form of filter capacitors, inductors and/or regulator IC's.

Loss of power while writing would reject the word/frame. Due to the fact
that the data reached CPM, was recovered, contiguous and intelligble,
the 'power loss' theory is not acceptable.

The simple fact that you held onto a theory that claimed the data was
six seconds prior to impact also contradicts your current claim of
impact vs. data written.

As I said before, this "BS theory" has nothing to do with the FDR type itself. I'm merely explaining to you that your impact time, apparently sourced from NTSB and nowhere else, does not appear to be reliable to +/- 1 second, which is the way you're using it. I'm also explaining that the trajectory you hypothesize makes no sense, and that I've already provided a superior, and eminently plausible, alternative.

No, you did not'

NTSB states impact at :45

Your theories (as explained above) do not make sense based on the information.


I still do not know what LIE or horrid contradiction you are talking about.

Remember this?

Quote:
ETA: The FDR data did stop. Since the FDR shows the aircraft well above the impact point, there can be no doubt that it did not record all the way to impact. And if there was no impact at all (as the no-planers will argue), there's no reason for it to stop at all. Very simple.
That would be fine for those fooled into believing the OGCT.

So, you just said...

IF there's NO IMPACT AT ALL, THERE's NO REASON FOR IT TO STOP AT ALL!

LMAO!!!

HOly COW!!!

So tell me, why did it stop 6 second back if there WAS NO IMPACT!

The data is missing from the FDR logs themselves. I haven't isolated the precise cause of why, but that isn't the point, since there are numerous candidates. What matters is the data that we do have, and that data does end before impact.

It DOES end before impact? But you just told us there's no reason for it? :eye-poppi

Are they actually in conflict, or are you simply applying false precision? I can't answer your question without more specifics. Give me references, page numbers, actual speeds, and maybe I can figure it out. I'm betting you're simply confused.

Here's a hint:

the turn started about 3.5 miles southwest
 
Awesome!! Yeah baby! I agree, it IS a silly flight path!! It is the CIT's North of Citgo flight path. It is an impossible flight path!!!

Look up at the subject of this Thread: Why Does the FAA/NORAD animation show the NOC flightpath?

Why indeed, because as you yourself state: it is a silly flight path!!

May I quote you on that? Hell, I don't care, I am going to quote you anyway!

Pilots For Truth call the North of CITGO flight path "silly."

Hey Dom, you better get your ass back in this thread, PFT is carving your boy's "silly" flight path right the hell up!!!


Hey expert post spinner.

I agree with the North flight path and our witness accounts.

I just don't like your 'dipping down below the trees crap. that's not what
the FDR says.

Maybe if you knew how to read FDR data, you wouldn't be asking for such
nonsense.
 
Maybe if you knew how to read FDR data, you wouldn't be asking for such
nonsense.

I know if CIT knew how to properly research anything, you are DAMN sure I would not be asking that question because they would NOT be coming up with this BS NoC flight path!!

Again, and I'll say it again, the dip below the tree level was taken from Craig/Lyte's discussion of Terry Morin's testimony on ATS and Loose Change.

Terry Morin is one of your witnesses. You knew that, correct?

But why argue, you already said the flight path is silly, and I agree!

Everybody watch me to do the SILLY dance of Win!

Silly Silly SIL-LEY Silly Silly SIL-LEY! N. of C. is SIL-LEY
 
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Hey expert post spinner.

I agree with the North flight path and our witness accounts.

I just don't like your 'dipping down below the trees crap. that's not what
the FDR says.

Maybe if you knew how to read FDR data, you wouldn't be asking for such
nonsense.
All the NoC paths are impossible based on CIT's own witnesses. Paik has 77 right to the side of the VDOT tower, below the tower. Oops.

Show us one path that is possible. Just one.

The bank angle and G force are also impossible for a plane to do, and based on witnesses even the ones CIT has warped, no bank angle was seen to make the high G turns. Facts are needed you came up short.

Which NoC witness? Paik is a direct impact witness; his testimony was messed with.

77 hit a tree. Oops.

Maybe if you used the FDR data you would understand. You have yet to back up anything you say with the FDR. You can't.

You sure talk a lot but no math or technical stuff comes out. Nothing. Just talk.
 
Nope. CRC, parity, etc. require the full word to be received and checked
before writing to CPM. Values stored in CPM are time stamped along
with the corresponding parameters.

And what time stamp is applied? Who generates the time stamp?

This has no effect on delays upstream.

Since this has been explained to you literally dozens of times, I don't expect an acknowledgement from you at this stage, so instead, I reiterate: Losses of the last few seconds are common in FDRs. The events of AA 77 are not unusual in this respect, no matter how they happened.

What damage? The data written to CPM is already secure and verified.
Power to the FDAU is not lost instantly upon impact, but even then
the Alititude shows too high at :45.

"What Damage:"
NTSB said:
The SSFDR was examined upon receipt. The recorder displayed evidence of impact, fire, and smoke damage. [...]

Only validated parameters are included in the plots and tabluar data in this report. A list of these parameters is in Attachments I-1 to I-4. The remaining parameters either were not recorded properly or were not confirmed to have been recorded properly, and were not included in this report.
Source

The list of unrecovered parameters outweighs the recovered parameters by about two to one. There are some reasons for this, i.e. most unrecoverable measurements are discretes and phase-specific, however there is some evidence of damage to the recording module itself. Nonetheless, this is but one possible mechanism, and one that cannot be ruled out.

Again, we know ...:45 is before impact, because, as you yourself point out, it was too high at that instant. This is consistent with my explanation.

This also suggests that the NTSB's "estimate" of impact time was merely read off from the above figure. This is quite similar to the 9/11 Commission report's (incorrect) impact times, which were taken directly from radar returns, and turn out to be off by about ten seconds.

Unless we can verify that the NTSB really meant its figure to be good to +/- 1 second, this figure is not precise enough to use it as you are using it. I've explained this to you several times today.

Nope. You can't wipe out certain seconds, or words, or parameters.

The FDR is rated up to 3400 G's and temperatures well above jet fuel.

Yes, one can. Particularly in an impact.

"Jet Fuel" is not a temperature. Also, systems do not always perform up to their rated spec...

And, once again, we must treat the data we have. There is no point arguing that we should have data that we do not.

As explained, the Flash memory itself requires address lines and electricity
applied for an extended period of time to erase the contents.

Sudden impacts, or loss of power do not contribute to the erease process
of EEPROM.

Wrong. If you are writing to an EEPROM when your voltage spikes or flatlines, you damage the EEPROM. Loss of power can lead to a latch, but a spike is the worse case. This results in excessive charging, leading to a short in the EEPROM itself. You can also get sympathetic charging in nearby cells. If an entire subframe was being written at this time, it would not be even faintly unusual for significant data damage.

And it doesn't take much. Kill a single bit in the sync words, and you've just invalidated an entire subframe.

Since the FDR records in four-second frames, and the data outage we're considering here is on the order of four to six seconds, you cannot possibly pretend that such mechanisms are impossible. Particularly since losses of similar data are, once again, seen in several other crashes as well.

Spikes: Regulated by circuitry usually in the form of filter capacitors, inductors and/or regulator IC's.

Loss of power while writing would reject the word/frame. Due to the fact
that the data reached CPM, was recovered, contiguous and intelligble,
the 'power loss' theory is not acceptable.

In a collision, you are practically guaranteed to get arcing across multiple power and data systems. All those capacitors suddenly get mashed onto their circuit boards in ways they were never intended. Batteries short. Rectifiers fail. Regulator IC's arc and short.

You're basically pretending that everything would work perfectly and then fail safe. Not a good assumption.

The simple fact that you held onto a theory that claimed the data was
six seconds prior to impact also contradicts your current claim of
impact vs. data written.

The FDR runs out before impact. This is not theory, it's fact. I'm holding on to it because that's what the data says. Again, I don't see the contradiction.

No, you did not'

NTSB states impact at :45

Your theories (as explained above) do not make sense based on the information.

Seem to make sense to me.


Remember this?

It DOES end before impact? But you just told us there's no reason for it? :eye-poppi

You're confusing yourself. The data does stop. There is data loss associated with the data stoppage, due to mechanisms as explained to you numerous times. Had there been no impact, the data would not have stopped, and there would be no loss.

No contradiction.

Here's a hint:

the turn started about 3.5 miles southwest

Not good enough. Either explain your alleged contradiction, or drop it. I can't tell how you are confused if you won't explain it.
 
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Aldo & Craig (Cpt. Bob too)

As said elsewhere, is not the entire 'issue' of a NOC flight path utterly moot? Unless, of course, you are suggesting the plane did not hit the building. I notice that here, and elsewhere, you deftly side-step this basic question. However, the question remains. Do you, or do you not, think the plane (FLT 77) hit the Pentagon, or not? If so, then who gives a rats butt about NOC/SOC/EOC/WOC? The darn plane ended it's flight in the building, correct? If not, then (as before) these ten questions are for you. No, they aren't for skeptics. If you're going to make assertions that challange the widely accepted narrative then you must be able to answer the implications of those assertions.

With that in mind, please answer these questions that are directly related to the existing body of accepted evidence. Once you (the royal you) can provide a plausible narrative to negate these questions, only then is it reasonable to entertain notions of a fly over. Hint: conspiracies, layered upon yet more conspiracies is not a cohesive narrative. It's unfounded speculation.

(1)What happened to flight 77?
If flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, then where is it? Where is the plane – physically? Who disposed of the aircraft? Where was it disposed? How? We are talking about 110 tons of aircraft, engines, fuel, seats, trays, avionics, luggage, etc. Where are the eyewitnesses that saw the plane physically fly over the Pentagon? Where did it land after the fly over? Were the FAA radar operators “in on it” too? Where are the airport employees who saw the 110 ton airliner land, at the undisclosed location? Were they “in on it” too, or were they killed? If so, who killed them?

(2)What happened to the passengers and crew?
Where are the passengers? Were they all “in on it”? If not, who disposed of the passengers? Where were the disposed of? How have the disposers been keep quiet? Have the disposers been killed too? How have the disposers of the disposers been kept quiet? Where were the bodies taken/buried? How was this accomplished?

(3)How do you explain the phone calls from loved ones physically on the plane, to other loved ones?
Where the calls faked? From where? How were family members duped into thinking they were talking to their wife (for example) when in you’re claiming they were talking to a computer program? How do you reconcile that some of the phone calls went through cell phone towers very close to the so-called “official” flight path? How do you reconcile that some of the calls originated from the Airphones physically on the plane in question?

(4)How do you explain the wreckage found in the building?
If it was planted, how was it planted? Who planted it? When did they plant it? Where did they get spare aircraft parts? Where were these spare aircraft parts stored? How were they transported to the scene without anyone noticing? Were the parts in question placed beforehand? If so, how? How was this accomplished without anyone noticing?

(5)How do you account for the wreckage found on the lawn?
Were the parts found in the lawn placed beforehand ? If so, where are the witnesses talking about aircraft wreckage laying around on the lawn beforehand? Or, are “they” “in on it” too? Was the wreckage on the lawn placed after the event? If so, how were “they” able to accomplish this without anyone noticing? Or are the potential witnesses, after the event “in on it” too?

(6)How do you reconcile the impact location, as it relates to the evidence?
How were the perpetrators able to judge the exact location of impact, before the event? That is, how do you reconcile that the airplane debris in question is exactly where it should be?

(7)How do you reconcile the bodies of the passengers and crew being positively identified through DNA evidence collected from within the Pentagon?
Is the DNA evidence faked? If so, by whom? Is the lab that conducted the tests and certified it’s authenticity “in on it” too?

(8)How do you reconcile personal effects, positively identified by family members as belonging to their next of kin, found within the Pentagon?
Was this evidence placed beforehand? If so, by whom? If it was placed after the event why did nobody notice? Or, are the first responders (Pentagon employees) “in on it” too? How were personal effects taken from the victims (like a drivers license) without their knowledge beforehand and planted?

(9)How do you reconcile the bodies of passengers found within the Pentagon, some still strapped into their seats?
Were the bodies placed beforehand? If so, how do you explain the bodies in question checking in at the counter at the originating airport? Were the ticketing agents “in on it” too? If the pilots were killed beforehand and then placed in the Pentagon (at some point), who flew the plane? If the bodies were placed after the event, how were the correct passengers and crew killed, then placed in the Pentagon without anyone knowing? Are the first responders, who found the first bodies, “in on it” too? Can you offer a time line that reconciles the correct passengers/crew checking in at the airport, being led off and executed and then their bodies being transported to the crash site?

(10)How do you explain the impact zone damage being completely in-line with a fast moving commercial airliner?
Was it a controlled demolition? If so, where are the blasting caps? Wiring? How was the area wired without anyone noticing? How long would this take? How would the employees who were killed at their desks not notice demolition experts wiring their office with demolitions and not complain, notice, or ask questions? Or, were the employees killed at their desk “in on it” too? If there were no employees at their desks, were the bodies planted before the event? If so, how? By whom? How have the planters been kept quiet? Were the planters killed too? By whom? Were the bodies planted after the event? If so, by whom? Where are the eyewitness reports of dead employees being brought in, after the fact? Or, were/are these potential witnesses “in on it” too?
 
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Here's a hint:

the turn started about 3.5 miles southwest
9/11 commission says (page 9?),
"77 was then 5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon… began a 330-degree turn"

You don't understand west-southwest, and when a plane starts as turn. The 9/11 commission is correct! Next. But the turn gets within 3.5 NM (so when the flight path study says "about", they are correct too; darn), but the turn does start at 5 miles. Darn you lack flying knowledge. Good job, you and p4t are doing a bang up job.

Do you get anything right?

Not really; the flight path study on page 2 says about 3.5 miles west-southwest. "About" being the key word, because the turn path was within 3.5 miles of the Pentagon. But if you take the lead in bank to the turn, 5 miles can be used. Darn. Are you always unable to connect the dots? You don't understand DME and keep using the wrong accuracy!

What other thing do you mess up?


Turbofan, "teacher you said recess ends in about 10 minutes, you called us in at 7 minutes", "waaaaaaaaaaaaa". Teacher, "yes turbofan, 7 minutes is about 10!, cry if you must but you don't have a clue how to understand things. Will you one day?"
About, parallel, perpendicular, and other issues like 64 words per second; could be a perception problem of p4t, CIT and, you too turbo?
Like higher math may take an epiphany, a moment of revelation to understand; one day you may gain understanding, a moment of enlightenment, illumination, on 9/11; hurry please.
 
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Slightly

According to the FDR and Turbo, the plane came to a complete stop and suspended in the air just above the Pentagon. In other words he uses the FDR to show that the plane did not reach the Pentagon. But the FDR does not show the plane flying over and beyond the Pentagon.

So therefore the only conclusion that can be reached using Turbo's argument is that the plane was suspended in the air near the Pentagon.We can rule out a fly over using Turbo's evidence which is the FDR and the eyewitness testimony. Since the FDR does not show a fly over and no witnesses report a fly-over, we can only conclude that the plain stopped in mid air.
 
To get back to the OP question - why? Celestrin had the best guess so far.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4041925&postcount=147

I looked at it a bit last night and did these graphics. Thses maps from NTSB's FPS and the final map of the animation are near perfectly aligned. Note the offset in rotation and location of the loop cross point.
NORAD_NTSB_comp_1.jpg


It almost looks like the squarish loop was based on taking every other 84 RADES return (pink dots) as anchor points, and replaced the intervening ones with straight lines or full curves, depending.
NORAD_animation_loop_2.jpg


Consider this pattern and the rotation in light of these final three points of RADES data. The last two are not real 77 returns, BTW. Does this answer the question? http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/lytetrip/Pentagon/flight%20path/AA77RADES.jpg
 
Wrong, because as the top end of the pole strikes the ground, the pole still has angular momentum. If the turning moment produced by the fact that the pole's centre of gravity is offset from the point of impact (and hence the line of action of the reaction force) is insufficient to reduce that angular momentum to zero by the time the pole has reached the vertical, then the pole will continue to rotate. It's trivial to demonstrate that this will be the case for any sufficiently large angular velocity of the pole. In layman's terms, if the pole is spinning fast enough, it won't stop spinning just because one end hits the ground.

TLB, I think you need to check your simple mechanics again. This is high school stuff.

Dave
Pay attention JREFlings- I said "caber-like" rotation. Can you guess why this is impossible?


There is no vertical force vector.
 
Brothers trying to work it out

I don't know if the policy has changed, but I'm able to read the PfffT forum, every link I've tried so far. Interesting dynamic going on the between Craig and Rob. I know, directing to other forums and so on, but it's an interesting read.
Rob's thread (starter 9/13) is all about how cool it is the data shows NoC, gets quite a few responses, half of it arguing with Craig over whether to "embrace" or "ignore" this.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=14629
Craig's thread required more thought, and went up 9/15. http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=14671 - zero responses still. And he's being so sophisiticated in his apprehension!
 
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On 9/11 the lawn slopes to the Pentagon, and the lens is a crummy fish eye lens distorting the whole world. 7 years and you have "ample evidence". I have ample evidence you lack research on 9/11. 77 never leveled off. Sorry. 77 hit the first VOT camera post and the bush the engine clipped, it was all down hill. 100 feet MSL to 40 feet MSL over 790 f/s forward velocity (everyone leaves out the added acceleration gained after the FDR last data point over 6 seconds away, 77 gaining 5 knots a second) The engines were close to their max temperature limits, over normal limits. Anyone look at the EGT of 77 in the FDR?

60 feet down to impact, 1300 feet to go. This is called down. A level off would have 77 hitting higher. This is called math. 77 hit near 2700 feet per minute, over 3 times normal landing approaches! Steep, this is why we get steep for small changed in angles. Normal landing approaches are at 2.5 degree, 750 feet per minute

Math, what we used in engineering school and music school.

Lens? Study up.

Greg, study before you post stupid stuff. Do you ever study stuff before drawing conclusion and signing truth petitions, or joining a few truther groups, including thermite Jones group of non-scholars on9/11? Where is that "ample evidence" in your truth petition, this topic seems to be lacking the ample evidence? We have an animation in this thread that shows 77 hitting the Pentagon, but in a path with no relationship to the actual path. The animation was brought up by a Mr Farmer, he is playing a joke on CIT/p4t because they can't understand symbols or animations and their use. It is possible RADAR data was used to make the animation, but even trucks and smoke could result in spurious RADAR returns after 77 flies into the Pentagon. There is one return to the left and right of the real flight path; but after impact.

Flight path, you can study before you adlib your statements based on faulty analysis.

Are you saying that the altitude went from 100 ft MSL to 40 ft MSL in the last 1-2 seconds? Even if the descent rate is 60 ft/sec, that's hardly a dive. Maybe you meant a gradual descent?
 

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