Why does FAA/Norad animation show NoC flightpath?

Impossible to tell. Chaos theory. Rest of your post is irrelevant garbage.
Pure idiocy. We better stop giving classical mechanics problems in Physics textbooks since chaos theory makes them unanswerable.:rolleyes:
This simple problem can be explained adequetely by classical mechanics.
 
Pure idiocy. We better stop giving classical mechanics problems in Physics textbooks since chaos theory makes them unanswerable.:rolleyes:
This simple problem can be explained adequetely by classical mechanics.

Yes indeed, your post was pure idiocy. The plane hits the poles. Poles break and fly off rather rapidly. The poles land on the ground.

We cannot calculate where they would land or exactly how they would react.
 
Pure idiocy. We better stop giving classical mechanics problems in Physics textbooks since chaos theory makes them unanswerable.:rolleyes:
This simple problem can be explained adequetely by classical mechanics.


Really? Go ahead and explain it then bright guy.
 
Yes indeed, your post was pure idiocy. The plane hits the poles. Poles break and fly off rather rapidly. The poles land on the ground.

We cannot calculate where they would land or exactly how they would react.

Well you could, but only if you knew exactly where they were hit, how hard they were hit, what the exact breaking strain on the bolts was, and in exactly what direction the impact was on the pole (note here that the angle of the wing means that the impact direction is not neccessarily the ame as the plane direction). Of course not knowing all those things.....
 
Pure idiocy. We better stop giving classical mechanics problems in Physics textbooks since chaos theory makes them unanswerable.:rolleyes:
This simple problem can be explained adequetely by classical mechanics.

It could, but only if you could describe the conditions at contact with much more precision. Depending on exactly what part of the aircraft hit the poles, at what angle, at what speed, etc., you will get radically different results.

To a limited degree, the behavior will be more or less the same -- the pole will rotate when hit, and probably acquire horizontal momentum as well, probably flipping end over end a few times like a caber. Exactly how it flips depends on exactly how much moment it takes to break the base, how much flexure is in the pole itself, whether it contacts the ground and at what angle, what surface the ends hit and how they behave, and so on and so on.

However, since we cannot specify the initial conditions with any accuracy at all, we cannot possibly estimate its final disposition with any usable accuracy. This is, indeed, deterministic chaos in action. Your branding of this as "idiocy" is, therefore, ironic.

As I've noted here numerous times, one cannot predict what number will come up on a thrown die. If we could, Las Vegas and Monte Carlo would be out of business overnight. The light pole impacts are vastly more complicated than even this intractable example.
 
Pure idiocy. We better stop giving classical mechanics problems in Physics textbooks since chaos theory makes them unanswerable.:rolleyes:
This simple problem can be explained adequetely by classical mechanics.
The path to impact requires 83 degrees of bank, and 8.2 Gs. Impossible to do.

Plus no one saw 77 do this, they all saw 77 fly straight into the Pentagon, no major bank! BTW, 83 degrees of bank is major bank!

No clue from 9/11 truth; why?
 
why there are no indications of pole strikes in the FDR data.
We all saw that white smoke trail in the DoD video (insert rolling eyes here),
but nothing in the data that shows damage, or impact.

Are you still ignoring the fact that the FDR data stopped a good 6 seconds before impact with the Pentagon, when it was over 1/2 mile away and before it hit any lamp poles?
 
That's not what I asked.

I didn't ask exactly how they would react. I asked for what would happen in quite general terms- certain phenomena are impossible, therefore, there is an objective answer to my problem.

Really? Go ahead and explain it then. It will be much quicker than having all of us guess how you will get your physics wrong.
 
Last edited:
Really? Go ahead and explain it then. It will be much quicker than having all of us guess how you will get your physics wrong.

Well he is right in some ways, afterall the poles wouldn't remain stationary as the plane wings were ripped off. That would be impossible.
 
It could, but only if you could describe the conditions at contact with much more precision. Depending on exactly what part of the aircraft hit the poles, at what angle, at what speed, etc., you will get radically different results.
As long as we assume the energy was enough for the pole to "break-away" and a descending angle (as hypothesized), my question is independent of these variables.

To a limited degree, the behavior will be more or less the same -- the pole will rotate when hit, and probably acquire horizontal momentum as well, probably flipping end over end a few times like a caber. Exactly how it flips depends on exactly how much moment it takes to break the base, how much flexure is in the pole itself, whether it contacts the ground and at what angle, what surface the ends hit and how they behave, and so on and so on.
Like a caber? Really? When a Scottsman throws a caber he is applying a force orthogonal to the direction he is running. What force was orthogonal to the heading of Flight 77?

However, since we cannot specify the initial conditions with any accuracy at all, we cannot possibly estimate its final disposition with any usable accuracy. This is, indeed, deterministic chaos in action. Your branding of this as "idiocy" is, therefore, ironic.
We can specify the conditions with enough accuracy that my question can be answered.

As I've noted here numerous times, one cannot predict what number will come up on a thrown die. If we could, Las Vegas and Monte Carlo would be out of business overnight. The light pole impacts are vastly more complicated than even this intractable example.
We can, however, predict that a number 1-6 will come up. I am asking a very general and simple question.
 
Last edited:
As long as we assume the energy was enough for the pole to "break-away" and a descending angle (as hypothesized), my question is independent of these variables.


Like a caber? Really? When a Scottsman throws a caber he is applying a force orthogonal to the direction he is running. What force was orthogonal to the heading of Flight 77?


We can specify the conditions with enough accuracy that my question can be answered.


We can, however, predict that a number 1-6 will come up. I am asking a very general and simple question.

Really? Go ahead and explain it then. Show us your work. Show us that you understand physics. Fill out that graph that you asked us to complete in post 242
 
Like a caber? Really? When a Scottsman throws a caber he is applying a force orthogonal to the direction he is running. What force was orthogonal to the heading of Flight 77?

The pole was vertical, attached at one end, and it was hit with great force somewhere along its length. This gives it rotational moment.

This should have been obvious to anyone, even those who have flunked Physics.
 
Jesus wept, I remember covering "levers" in science classes when I was about 10!
 
The pole was vertical, attached at one end, and it was hit with great force somewhere along its length. This gives it rotational moment.

This should have been obvious to anyone, even those who have flunked Physics.


Although, theoretically, it should be possible to calculate what height a plane would have to hit the pole to impart no rotational momentum.

A point where the moment of inertia of the upper part is equal to the moment of inertia of the lower part plus the moment caused by shear coupling resistance.

However, to do so would require far more information than is available. Information on geometry, materials, imact direction and time, etc etc.
To say that such a point would lie below the halfway point of the poles height, on the other hand, requires no such information.

Did the plane hit below the halfway point of the light pole?
 
The pole was vertical, attached at one end, and it was hit with great force somewhere along its length. This gives it rotational moment.

This should have been obvious to anyone, even those who have flunked Physics.
I don't understand. A caber-thrower produces an upwards force on the caber- what was the upward force on the pole?
 
I don't understand. A caber-thrower produces an upwards force on the caber- what was the upward force on the pole?

Even though for some types of impact you can get a (partially) vertical force, for instance a nacelle hit below the center of mass, you don't need an upward force to cause the pole to rotate. If you can't figure that out, you have no business lecturing anyone about chaos theory and classical mechanics.

Of course, you are the guy who doesn't know that 0.001% != 0.001, so I guess that's part for the course. I strongly suggest you lose the indignation, stop typing, and just try to learn.
 
Even though for some types of impact you can get a (partially) vertical force, for instance a nacelle hit below the center of mass, you don't need an upward force to cause the pole to rotate.
Oh, but you do.
No upward force and the pole hits the ground. If the impact was near a cliff or in outerspace, then you could have a full caber-like rotation (though technically that's not the best description since throwing a caber implies a vertical force).
 

Back
Top Bottom