Merged Was Hani Hanjour really inexperienced?

[radical_logic]

Wrong
270 degree turn? Faulty information. Not credible.
270 degree turn? Faulty information. Not credible.

As I pointed out, the fact that the "270 degree turn is wrong" doesn't mean the conclusion is incorrect.

Made 2 days after the crash. No information known. Not credible.

Mere Assertion.

"And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed."

What's not credible about this claim?

Leaves out the important quote

So the ATCs were basing their opinion on how the plane was flown and not the piloting skills.

One can determine the skill of a pilot by how he flies it.

The Baghdad article shows how wrong this is.

Mere Assertion. The Baghdad article doesn't even address flight 77.

 

[Pardalis]

"And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed."

What's not credible about this claim?

How can he know about the specifics of the maneuvers only two days after the event?

 

[radical_logic]

So how does this prove Hani didn't fly the plane again?

It doesn't. However, if the claims I cited are correct, then Hanjour most likely didn't pilot flight 77 because experts say he couldn't have.

 

[beachnut]

http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/landing_in_baghdad.html?c=y&page=1

Point to a single sentence (if you can) that negates the claims I cited.

http://www.911myths.com/Another_Expert.pdf

Same challenge. But, let's suppose you could with this one. What would that really tell us? You would only have one expert claiming - not arguing - that the sources I quoted are incorrect.

http://911debunker.livejournal.com/2647.html
"There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it."
Source: http://www.pentagonresearch.com/Newsday_com.htm

I am an expert as is Reheat we flew jets in the USAF. I instructed people in flying the KC-135, a four engine jet harder to fly than the 757/767. Your ideas are all wrong, but go ahead act like a person who can't think for them selves or use real evidence and testimony to find the truth.

Anyone could hit the Pentagon, only the p4t pilots say they can't. They are worse than the terrorist pilots; and you are a terrorist apologist tying to blame the US for the attacks. How pathetic.

I know hundreds of pilots in person, who agree with Reheat and I.

So you have .0001 percent of all pilots on your side. Not a good sign for your ideas; failed ideas.

 

[radical_logic]

How can he know about the specifics of the maneuvers only two days after the event?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/11/national/main310721.shtml

Check the date again and learn how to count.

 

[Pardalis]

It doesn't. However, if the claims I cited are correct, then Hanjour most likely didn't pilot flight 77 because experts say he couldn't have.

Again, not necessarily.

Since his only focus was to steer the plane and crash it at high speed at the ground, then it is not incomprehensible that he failed a flying class.

 

[beachnut]

It doesn't. However, if the claims I cited are correct, then Hanjour most likely didn't pilot flight 77 because experts say he couldn't have.

http://911debunker.livejournal.com/2647.html debunked by me and others;

"Settling in Mesa, Hanjour began refresher training at his old school,Arizona Aviation. He wanted to train on multi-engine planes, but had difficulties because his English was not good enough. The instructor advised him to discontinue but Hanjour said he could not go home without completing the training. In early 2001, he started training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Mesa. An instructor there found his work well below standard and discouraged him from continuing. Again, Hanjour persevered; he completed the initial training by the end of March 2001."
Source: http://www.faqs.org/docs/911/911Report-243.html
(continues to "Report-244)

You are quote mining and cherry picking. How many pilots have you asked who are not p4t dolts?

If you would read the sources for the lies found in 9/11 truth, even you could comprehend you are spreading false information and being an apologist for terrorist.

 

[radical_logic]

Again, not necessarily.

Yes, necessarily. If experts are correct in asserting that Hanjour could not have flown 77 into the Pentagon the way he allegedly did, then it's highly likely that he didn't.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

But not, according to experts, into the Pentagon the way Hanjour purportedly did.

"[J]ust as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west…Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm."http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14365-2001Sep11http://patriotsquestion911.com/#Muga

yes, hanjour was a trained pilot, anything else?

 

[A W Smith]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/11/national/main310721.shtml

Check the date again and learn how to count.

At 9:33 the plane crossed the Capitol Beltway and took aim on its military target. But the jet, flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn

Did you get that? Hanjour missed the largest and uniquely shaped office building in the world!

 

[Pardalis]

Yes, necessarily. If experts are correct in asserting that Hanjour could not have flown 77 into the Pentagon the way he allegedly did, then it's highly likely that he didn't.

Again, you ignore my point. You're just going to keep repeating the same things and the same quotes again and again.

 

[radical_logic]

yes, hanjour was a trained pilot, anything else?

Yep.

"Freeway Airport evaluated suspected hijacker Hani Hanjour when he attempted to rent a plane. He took three flights with the instructors in the second week of August, but flew so poorly he was rejected for the rental, said Marcel Bernard, chief flight instructor at Freeway."

http://www.newsline.umd.edu/justice/specialreports/stateofemergency/airportlosses091901.htm


"Marcel Bernard, the airport manager and chief flight instructor, told FBI agents investigating last week's suicide attacks that one of their suspects in case, Hani Hanjour, had flown with flight instructors on three occasions over the last six weeks…His flying skills were so poor overall that [instructors] declined to rent a plane to him without future training,’ Bernard said of Hanjour."

http://web.archive.org/web/20030908034933/http://www.gazette.net/200138/greenbelt/news/72196-1.html

"Mr. Hanjour, who investigators contend piloted the airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, was reported to the aviation agency in February 2001 after instructors at his flight school in Phoenix had found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot's license was genuine."

"Ms. Ladner… feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner."

"A former employee of the school said that the staff initially made good-faith efforts to help Mr. Hanjour and that he received individual instruction for a few days. But he was a poor student. On one written problem that usually takes 20 minutes to complete, Mr. Hanjour took three hours, the former employee said, and he answered incorrectly."

"Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot…'I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D00E0DC1E31F937A35756C0A9649C8B63

"[Managers] reported him not because they feared he was a terrorist, but because his English and flying skills were so bad, they told the Associated Press, they didn't think he should keep his pilot's license… ‘I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had,’ said Peggy Chevrette, the manager for the now-defunct JetTech flight school in Phoenix."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/10/attack/main508656.shtml

 

[beachnut]

Yes, necessarily. If experts are correct in asserting that Hanjour could not have flown 77 into the Pentagon the way he allegedly did, then it's highly likely that he didn't.

I have flown for over 35 years. I taught other how to fly KC-135s a four engine jet in the USAF like a 707. I believe the KC is harder to fly than a 757/767, the new planes have very good flight controls that take out some of the bad qualities of response that made it hard to fly large jets.

Radical logic has me on ignore. There are some good ideas here

http://911debunker.livejournal.com/2647.html

And here: http://www.911myths.com/html/flight_school_dropouts.html

I took kids and put them in the simulator and they flew into buildings with ease.

I have let non pilots fly the KC-135, and they had no problems controlling the plane. Some people can't keep anything under control, they may have problems flying for sustained periods. It is easy to crash into a building than land!

Radical logic is spreading old debunked cherry picked, quote mine, junk on Hani. Not a thing done flying on 9/11 required pilot skills;

Sad, the terrorist were pilot who persevered and learned to fly 1,000 times better than Radical logic is at understanding 9/11.

 

[radical_logic]

Again, you ignore my point.

I only ignored the point that was irrelevant.

In response to my statement which said: "However, if the claims I cited are correct, then Hanjour most likely didn't pilot flight 77 because experts say he couldn't have."

You wrote: "Again, not necessarily."

I won't repeat again why it has to be "yes, necessarily."

 

[Kent1]

Yep.

"Freeway Airport evaluated suspected hijacker Hani Hanjour when he attempted to rent a plane. He took three flights with the instructors in the second week of August, but flew so poorly he was rejected for the rental, said Marcel Bernard, chief flight instructor at Freeway."

http://www.newsline.umd.edu/justice/specialreports/stateofemergency/airportlosses091901.htm


"Marcel Bernard, the airport manager and chief flight instructor, told FBI agents investigating last week's suicide attacks that one of their suspects in case, Hani Hanjour, had flown with flight instructors on three occasions over the last six weeks…His flying skills were so poor overall that [instructors] declined to rent a plane to him without future training,’ Bernard said of Hanjour."

http://web.archive.org/web/20030908034933/http://www.gazette.net/200138/greenbelt/news/72196-1.html

"Mr. Hanjour, who investigators contend piloted the airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, was reported to the aviation agency in February 2001 after instructors at his flight school in Phoenix had found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot's license was genuine."

"Ms. Ladner… feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner."

"A former employee of the school said that the staff initially made good-faith efforts to help Mr. Hanjour and that he received individual instruction for a few days. But he was a poor student. On one written problem that usually takes 20 minutes to complete, Mr. Hanjour took three hours, the former employee said, and he answered incorrectly."

"Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot…'I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D00E0DC1E31F937A35756C0A9649C8B63

"[Managers] reported him not because they feared he was a terrorist, but because his English and flying skills were so bad, they told the Associated Press, they didn't think he should keep his pilot's license… ‘I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had,’ said Peggy Chevrette, the manager for the now-defunct JetTech flight school in Phoenix."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/10/attack/main508656.shtml

As shown previously in this thread, his flight school trainers Peggy Chevrette and Marcel Bernard do not share the same doubt as you. In posts such as 35,36.

 

[The Big Dog]

Please see post 42.

"As a former pilot, the President was struck by the apparent sophistication of some of the piloting, especially Hanjour's high-speed dive into the Pentagon." (9/11 Comission Report page 334)

Lapman, so you disagree with the "expert claims" made in the sources I cited, including one in the 9/11 Comission report.

"As a former pilot, the President was struck by the apparent sophistication of some of the piloting, especially Hanjour's high-speed dive into the Pentagon." (9/11 Comission Report page 334)

Can you link me to some credible refutations of the claims in those sources I cited?

(Btw, I’ll state a fact that should be obvious to anyone who gives serious attention to post 43: the sources I cited include reports from the Washington Post, CBS news, Maryland Newsline, Greenbelt Gazette, and New York Times.)

Please refer him to post 42 and the links to the articles I posted there.

"As a former pilot, the President was struck by the apparent sophistication of some of the piloting, especially Hanjour's high-speed dive into the Pentagon." (9/11 Comission Report page 334)

I have flown for over 35 years. I taught other how to fly KC-135s a four engine jet in the USAF like a 707. I believe the KC is harder to fly than a 757/767, the new planes have very good flight controls that take out some of the bad qualities of response that made it hard to fly large jets.

Radical logic has me on ignore. There are some good ideas here

http://911debunker.livejournal.com/2647.html

And here: http://www.911myths.com/html/flight_school_dropouts.html

I took kids and put them in the simulator and they flew into buildings with ease.

I have let non pilots fly the KC-135, and they had no problems controlling the plane. Some people can't keep anything under control, they may have problems flying for sustained periods. It is easy to crash into a building than land!

Radical logic is spreading old debunked cherry picked, quote mine, junk on Hani. Not a thing done flying on 9/11 required pilot skills;

Sad, the terrorist were pilot who persevered and learned to fly 1,000 times better than Radical logic is at understanding 9/11.

Bumped for RL

 

[Pardalis]

Argument ad nauseam is not a valid form of argument.

 

[radical_logic]

Did you get that? Hanjour missed the largest and uniquely shaped office building in the world!

That is a mystery, but, again, irrelevant to the contradiction I pointed out.

A=Hani Hanjour was a highly skilled pilot.

~A=Hani Hanjour was a terrible pilot.

If ~A is true, then, as experts say, he couldn't have flown 77 into the Pentagon.

 

[radical_logic]

Argument ad nauseam is not a valid form or argument.

You asserted that my claim was not necessarily true, and I showed how your claim is wrong. Demonstrating ad nauseam that you are wrong doesn't mean I haven't shown the falsity of your claim.

 

[Pardalis]

That is a mystery, but, again, irrelevant to the contradiction I pointed out.

A=Hani Hanjour was a highly skilled pilot.

~A=Hani Hanjour was a terrible pilot.

If ~A is true, then, as experts say, he couldn't have flown 77 into the Pentagon.

Again, you have to take into consideration that he didn't care for take off, landing, altitude and passenger safety.

That made him a bad pilot.

I expect this to be ignored again, and RL to post the same quotes and links again.