Milk CAUSES osteoporosis??

[Soapy Sam]

I've seen changes in body shape of people in Kazakhstan just in the last decade.
In countries with persistent , multi-generation food shortages, we might expect children's metabolism to be tuned to store as much fat as possible.
If so, it seems likekly that parts of Asia and Africa might experience far worse obesity epidemics mong youngsters than the west, if food consumption there reaches western levels.

 

[Chris Haynes]

I've seen changes in body shape of people in Kazakhstan just in the last decade.
In countries with persistent , multi-generation food shortages, we might expect children's metabolism to be tuned to store as much fat as possible.
If so, it seems likekly that parts of Asia and Africa might experience far worse obesity epidemics mong youngsters than the west, if food consumption there reaches western levels.

That has occurred here among native peoples. These are people who were genetically tuned to survive on the food available to them (corn, some meat, and not much). Then as the world changed and they changed their eating habits to match, complications arose:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1002497

But it has nothing to do with milk or breaking bones.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Nothing?
The connections between genetics, metabolism and environment are so complex, I would never say "nothing" in a discussion like this. For instance- where do most Indians get their calcium? What if they switch to high dairy fat diets? (Rhetorical q. I have no idea.)
Is it credible that osteoporosis in different ethnic groups might have different causes even given identical diets because the predominant genetics handle the food differently?

The reason I asked what is meant by "milk" originally was because even elderly women in the UK these days ( a group at significant risk from osteoporosis), increasingly tend to buy skimmed milk and other low fat dairy produce, being urged to do so by doctors pushing an anti-cholesterol agenda- (My mother, aged 83 was recently urged by her GP to start taking statins). So is skimmed milk as good a defence against osteoporosis as whole milk?

 

[Aquila]

.....where do most Indians get their calcium?

I am presuming that it is from green vegetables. We are so accustomed with associating calcium with whiite milk, that I think we forget that it was originally made from green plant material in the cow's stomach.

The reason I asked what is meant by "milk" originally was because even elderly women in the UK these days ( a group at significant risk from osteoporosis), increasingly tend to buy skimmed milk and other low fat dairy produce, being urged to do so by doctors pushing an anti-cholesterol agenda- (My mother, aged 83 was recently urged by her GP to start taking statins). So is skimmed milk as good a defence against osteoporosis as whole milk?

Sorry I didn't address this earlier, but I'm afraid I don't know if there is difference between skim and whole milk as far as calcium. There definitely is a difference fat levels. From what I can gather,"weight bearing" excercise is the best defence against osteoporosis (as well as calcium in the diet) in post-menopausal women, plus sunlight exposure, which produces Vitamin D in the body.

 

[AgeGap]

122mg Calcium per 100mg Semi-Skimmed Milk. UK, from label on bottle. I think Skimmed more, Full less.
I wonder what Life expectancy^WP versus # neck of femur rate would look like?
Countries with an aged population have a greater incident of osteoporosis.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Nothing?
The connections between genetics, metabolism and environment are so complex, I would never say "nothing" in a discussion like this. For instance- where do most Indians get their calcium? What if they switch to high dairy fat diets? (Rhetorical q. I have no idea.)
Is it credible that osteoporosis in different ethnic groups might have different causes even given identical diets because the predominant genetics handle the food differently?

My apologies. I did mention that Indians do use milk products, from yogurt to ghee. India is one of the largest milk producers in the world, but perhaps not per capita. Now did you miss where I listed India's position on global milk consumption as #88 with 47.5 kilograms/capita/year? To put it in comparison, Italy is #95 with 45.6 kilogram/capita/year. Check out the table yourself here (though it is sorted by meat consumption):
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/4048S.pdf

The reason I asked what is meant by "milk" originally was because even elderly women in the UK these days ( a group at significant risk from osteoporosis), increasingly tend to buy skimmed milk and other low fat dairy produce, being urged to do so by doctors pushing an anti-cholesterol agenda- (My mother, aged 83 was recently urged by her GP to start taking statins). So is skimmed milk as good a defence against osteoporosis as whole milk?

Skim milk has more calcium per volume than whole milk. From http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002412.htm

The calcium is not contained in the "fat portion" of milk, so removing the fat will not affect the calcium content. In fact, when you replace the fat portion that has been removed with an equal part of skimmed milk, you are actually increasing the calcium content. Therefore, one cup of skim or non-fat milk will have more calcium than one cup of whole milk because almost the entire cup of skim milk is the made up of the calcium-containing portion!

The rest of that article should help you find more foods with calcium.

 

[Chris Haynes]

I've seen changes in body shape of people in Kazakhstan just in the last decade.
In countries with persistent , multi-generation food shortages, we might expect children's metabolism to be tuned to store as much fat as possible.
If so, it seems likekly that parts of Asia and Africa might experience far worse obesity epidemics mong youngsters than the west, if food consumption there reaches western levels.

By the way, in the http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/4048S.pdf paper, Kazakhstan is ranked #5 in dairy consumption with 174.2 kg/capita/year.

Their cuisine is very dairy oriented, from fermented milk to cheeses... and meat.

 

[Aquila]

By the way, in the http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/4048S.pdf paper, Kazakhstan is ranked #5 in dairy consumption with 174.2 kg/capita/year.

Their cuisine is very dairy oriented, from fermented milk to cheeses... and meat.

I hope I'm not prolonging this discussion longer than neccessary but just wanted to add a couple of things. Fermented milk, from what I've heard alters the digestability of the product, as does making it into yogurt. I know that the Balkans have always been famous for their yoghurt, and 100 year old inhabitants who eat it. The addition of the acidophilus bacteria makes it great for our intestines.

And the other thing was about ph.

I am no expert in nutrition, but one important fact I learned is that there is a difference between acidic foods and acid forming foods.

Citrus fruits, for example, are acidic-tasting, but they do not produce acid in the stomach and intestines ( I think they might even produce alkali). Protein, on the other hand, including milk protein and meat, is acid forming in the body. This is a key point in this whole argument about calcium and osteoporosis.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

argh. Still not introducing anything to the digestive system that wasn't already there. The pH of your food does not affect the pH of your body either. If it did, we'd all die at our first intake of even mother's milk. Heck, nobody would be left to be a mother either. Good thing we all don't have to care about the pH of the food we eat. This is a non-argument, as it is confined to the digestive tract.
http://www.annecollins.com/digestive-system/digestion-of-protein.htm
Amino acids are the main component of our body's system too.

After breakdown, the amino acids are small enough to pass through the intestinal lining into tiny veins (capillaries) in the villi (the finger-like projections on the wall of the small intestine). Once in the bloodstream, the amino acids are distributed by both red blood cells and by the liquid blood plasma to tissues throughout the body where they are used in the creation and repair of cell structures. Such is the demand for protein, the body maintains a constant balance of amino acids in the blood.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00175.htm

Proteins have 3 levels
of complexity. The most complex level is the 3 dimensional level. Pepsin
helps to "unwind" the proteins and breaks the bonds between the amino acids in certain places. The food passes to the small intestine and other enzymes break the bonds between different amino acids than pepsin. Because proteins are such complicated molecules it takes a long time and more than one enzyme to completely break them down into amino acids.

It does not matter what pH the food was when it got into our mouths. The protein is broken down into component parts before it gets into the rest of our body, and the pH of blood is constantly maintained.

"Acid forming foods" is a crazily coined expression that is irrelevant to the argument.

You'll have to prove that the amino acids, that our body actually wants and causes specifically to be produced by breaking down the protein before it leaves the digestive tract, somehow affects the calcium that ends up in our bloodstream. Note: It doesn't.

I would recommend that people stop using bad sources of information to "learn" things from. Please.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Exess intake of protein?

From link above:

If protein requirements are exceeded by protein intake, the surplus amino acids may be converted to glucose for energy use, or converted to fatty acids and stored as adipose tissue.

Adipose tissue is fat cells, all clumped together in areas like you tummy, thighs, butt, etc. Yeah, you eat too much, you get fat cells, lots of fat cells.

 

[Aquila]

Thank you Eos of the Eons, from my tummy, thighs and butt.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

You're so so very welcome. Evaluating crazy claims can be difficult, but learning how the body works is fascinating. Our bodies are amazing. Never stop learning and trying to decipher what is really going on with it.

 

[Soapy Sam]

By the way, in the http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/4048S.pdf paper, Kazakhstan is ranked #5 in dairy consumption with 174.2 kg/capita/year.

Their cuisine is very dairy oriented, from fermented milk to cheeses... and meat.

Not in my experience, (meat yes, dairy no), but I probably don't see a "typical " Kazakh diet. We get lots of pasta (Yech). UHT milk , with lowfat option is getting common in towns and cities there- but I only see what comes from work catering- and RoK is such a big place , I'm unsure if there even is a single national cuisine.

We do tend to forget greens as a calcium source in the west, don't we? I know many folk who hardly eat veg at allany more- prefering fruit juice for vitamins (and extra sugar I suppose).

 

[TheDaver]

http://www.yourhealthbase.com/database/a80h.htm

http://www.milksucks.com/osteo.asp

First site is woo, second site is PETA. I wouldn’t worry.

 

[luchog]

Nah, its from a plant. Plants proteins are not as dangerous as animal proteins because animal proteins are poison and filled with evil dark festering pus and cruel seal clubbing, monkey brain eating and dog kicking, meat eating, planet destroying people.

Well, there maybe something in it, if you stretch hard enough. Amino acids in soy products are (significantly but not dramatically) more bioavailable than in animal sources.

But you'd still have to stretch that a lot to get it to fit the "acidification" woo.

 

[luchog]

Many people seem to be switching to soy milk now. But even that has been critisized because of the estrogen - like chemical in it, which apparently has an adverse effect on men.

Phytoestrogen harm is pure woo. Phytoestrogens are predominantly non-bioavailable in humans, and no studies have reliably shown a significant impact from dietary phytoestrogen.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/3/396
http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/2/228?ck=nck
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14924634

 

[Aquila]

Phytoestrogen harm is pure woo. Phytoestrogens are predominantly non-bioavailable in humans, and no studies have reliably shown a significant impact from dietary phytoestrogen.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/3/396
http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/2/228?ck=nck
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14924634

I'm glad you're keeping abreast of this.

 

[Old Bob]

Calcium from cow's milk? don't think we get much as it is the wrong polarity so someone said. I do know we get most calcium from meat and veg. Unfortunately super phospate ties up many minerals in our food and is the main reason for osteoporosis. Mineral vit. pills are often the wrong polarity and go straight through us. Minerals on garden,plants take them up and change polarity then we get them as nature intended, Think chelated means our bodies will except because of the polarity.

 

[paximperium]

Calcium from cow's milk? don't think we get much as it is the wrong polarity so someone said. I do know we get most calcium from meat and veg. Unfortunately super phospate ties up many minerals in our food and is the main reason for osteoporosis. Mineral vit. pills are often the wrong polarity and go straight through us. Minerals on garden,plants take them up and change polarity then we get them as nature intended, Think chelated means our bodies will except because of the polarity.

You have no idea what you're talking about do you?
"Polarity"? "Super Phosphate"? Where do you dig this stuff out from?

 

[Old Bob]

You have no idea what you're talking about do you?
"Polarity"? "Super Phosphate"? Where do you dig this stuff out from?

From a very long time of study on my father's questions on cattle health and what they lack because we didn't know what the effects of superphosphate were. A smart man called Percy Weston (long dead) developed a cancer cure (his writings are on the net) based on phosphate problems. Eg. Every spring hundreds of cattle die of bloat in Victoria (Aus) my father thought they lacked mineral because they chewed the trees, he fed extra magnesium and dropped our loses by some 90%. The reason that the cattle got bloat was the s. phosphate tied up the minerals and released fluoride in the spring grasses causing one type of gastric bacteria to die and another type to flourish creating gas that can kill the animal. Ok back to the calcium, it's all tied in and the over view is not what we are taught. Polarity of mineral has to be right for our bodies to except. Maybe I think different to you.