• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

Status
Not open for further replies.
No. There are more heights given for Patty than there are contenders for "Who made the suit?" Krantz gave estimates for walking height and standing height.

Then you can not say BS to anyone who states their is nothing unusual about "aunt bunny". You state it is as if it were fact. Now you state that there are all sorts of measurements and none agree.

I also listened to the interview with Bill Munns and I'm astounded that any of you can still be arguing for a suit. Talk about wishful thinking!


Long ago, I asked Bill in this forum if he could present his reasons why he thought it was not a man in a suit. He scolded me that this is not what he was doing and that he could not eliminate a man in a suit. Are you stating that in another venue he is professing it is not a man in a suit?
Recently, I pointed out to Munns some Flaws, I felt he had made in his figure comparing it to Aunt Bunny. He stated it was a work in progress and did not discuss it further. Either Munns is saying one story here and another someplace else in order to cater to the bigfoot crowd or you are misinterpreting what he said.
 
Last edited:
Your attempts to portray people who take an interest in this as some kind of weird cult indicate you really don't know much about them. You're much more interesting when you drop the silly phraseology and just write straight.
This wasn't addressed to me but skeptics may be less apt to make cult comparisons to Bigfoot enthusiasts if they didn't continually exhibit unquestioning faith in the proclamations of their authority figures. You know, like this:

Then how did you miss Green saying it was one of many unsubstantiated claims that crop up from time to time?
:drool: John Green said so. It came from my Green. Read Greeeen. :drool:
 
I'm sorry, Correa, but your collage has been rendered null and void by the inclusion of Marvel Comics character Sasquatch AKA Walter Langkowski, famed Polish-Canadian physicist. Everybody knows, of course, that Langkowski got that way from exposing himself to gamma radiation in an attempt to gain the same powers as the Hulk.:D
Must have been some hidden top-secret lab at Berkeley...

As plausible as bigfeet with glowing eyes!
And giant apes across North America, stealing beans at someone's backyard but leaving no traces behind other than footprints which look like fakeries or misidentifications and blurry imagery quite often suspected of being frauds.
 
Then you can not say BS to anyone who states their is nothing unusual about "aunt bunny". You state it is as if it were fact. Now you state that there are all sorts of measurements and none agree.

Skeptical measurements tend to be shorter.

The actual height doesn't matter in the proportions. The IM index, e.g., is a ratio. She could be 2'10" and still have the same inhuman proportions.

What's this "aunt bunny" stuff?

Long ago, I asked Bill in this forum if he could present his reasons why he thought it was not a man in a suit. He scolded me that this is not what he was doing and that he could not eliminate a man in a suit. Are you stating that in another venue he is professing it is not a man in a suit?

Nope. Read BFF. Listen to the interview.

Can't really eliminate teapots circling the earth, either.
 
Last edited:
Sweaty,

Lets put on our common sense caps ok. Have you ever wondered why you can’t see the subjects shadow in the main part of the film? It’s because it has walked opposite of a little sand bar.

Illustration 1. This comp is simply meant to illustrate shadow vs. no shadow. It is not overlaid right it was made to simply illustrate the shadow aspect. You see the shadow while the subject is on the near side of the bar you don’t see the shadow when it’s on the far side of the bar. We do not know the contour of the substrate on the far side of the sand bar there could be divot’s, pieces of wood and/or rocks. We have no absolute way to visually confirm what we can’t see, most of the filmstrips we have access to are washed-out and of poor quality.





Illustration 2. Notice the shadow.





Illustration 3. Notice there is no shadow.





Illustration 4. Notice how the rendered image lines up pretty good with the original. Common sense tells us that the altitude and angle of the rendered light is very close to the original in regards to the sun therefore the shadow that is cast is also very close to the original. Do you understand what I mean? If I was to overlay the two images perfectly, blur the rendered image and if I knew how to diffuse the light source in my 3D software I bet it would be perfect. I simply do not have the time right now.





Illustration 5. Same as above.

Click Image to activate




Now please explain to me why this couldn’t possibly be the subjects shadow cast upon a high piece of substrate/earth. Please keep your common sense cap on and remember that this was originally a common sense guess on my part. Why do you still believe Patty has duck feet when the most logical explanation is staring you in the face?

Drugs are bad.


m
 
Lu,

My guess is that their IM index is going to blown out of the water sometime in the future.


m
 
This wasn't addressed to me but skeptics may be less apt to make cult comparisons to Bigfoot enthusiasts if they didn't continually exhibit unquestioning faith in the proclamations of their authority figures. You know, like this:

:drool: John Green said so. It came from my Green. Read Greeeen. :drool:

Don't you think someone who's been researching since 1957 might know more about it than people who get their information from the media and other posters on the Internet?

I think he mentioned someone (no names, of course) claiming he built the suit in Apes Among Us, published, when? 1986? He kept the letters Wallace sent him and was on to him decades ago.

I don't agree with John on all things, but he was there and we weren't.

I don't have any authority figures (and I don't like stereotyping), but I do like going to the source.
 
The actual height doesn't matter in the proportions. The IM index, e.g., is a ratio. She could be 2'10" and still have the same inhuman proportions.

Well seeing as this seems to be one of the few points against the film being real that you'll actually talk about, let's address it. She doesn't have inhuman proportions. The reason for this is that according to the IM index, I have 'inhuman' proportions. Because there are humans with the same proportions, 'her's' are not inhuman.


Don't you think that someone who has been investigating since 1957 might have a bit of an emotional bias?
 
Astrophotographer:

"Long ago, I asked Bill in this forum if he could present his reasons why he thought it was not a man in a suit. He scolded me that this is not what he was doing and that he could not eliminate a man in a suit. "

I may not have had a full analysis at that time, but I have always stated that my primary focus is precisely to try and determine if the figure in the film is a suit or not, based on my knowledge and experience making suits and thus understanding what they look like in action when worn. You apparently misunderstood. I am not trying to prove Bigfoot is real, and I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything about the "backstory". I may be able to eliminate a suit, as a conclusion, maybe not, depending on how future studies and research go. If I can't absolutely and categorically rule out a suit at this time (or at the prior time you referenced), it is precisely because i want to be as thorough as i can.


"Are you stating that in another venue he is professing it is not a man in a suit? "

I have not offered any final conclusion yet, but I find far more indications Patty is not a suit than indications she may be.


"Recently, I pointed out to Munns some Flaws, I felt he had made in his figure comparing it to Aunt Bunny. He stated it was a work in progress and did not discuss it further. "

The "work in progress" is the comparative anatomy study, trying to fix a reliable estimation of the body and skeleton inside patty (human or otherwise). That is still in progress, yes. You did point out a thing or two which I have acknowledged would be factored into the next phase of the study.

"Either Munns is saying one story here and another someplace else in order to cater to the bigfoot crowd or you are misinterpreting what he said. "

I'm not saying anything to cater to any crowd. I'm expressing my thoughts and describing my studies as best I can. A few people on each side of the issues seem to misunderstand what I say or write. Offhand, I'd say those on the skeptical side of the fence have a higher propensity for misunderstanding me, based on my reading of their remarks.

Bill

For the record, here's my position on the subject, as much as I have determined thus far:

My primary concerns, about the figure in the film, are summarized as follows:

1. The back of the neck, before, during, and after the "look back" is a critical issue for a suit, and I have not found any indication of any of the unusual suit flaws that occur at the neck when the heads turns as much as we see on the film.

2. The head shape itself, as much as I have been able to determine thus far (and I'm still exploring how to define it more reliably) may possess a flattened cranial top that makes a human head inside unlikely, and I hope to refine this analysis to be more conclusive.

3. The Neck Hackle Shadow, which I only began to appreciate well into the analysis, may very well be a determining factor.

4. The torso contours I described in notes titled "Flab" remain a very serious concern in terms of my appraisal of a suit (despite the intended humor of the title).

5. The various shadowed lines across the hip, pelvis and right leg upper thigh do remain the strongest arguments I see suggestive of a suit, because I cannot identify natural biological hair patterns that specifically remind me of these shadow areas. But as curious as they are, I do not endorse the common analysis descriptions of padding, hip waders, and seams because I see discrepancies from frame to frame that are not suggestive to me of the continuous flaw indications a suit should have.


And a summary of the issues or concerns that I am confident about are as follows:

1. If it is a suit, it's definitely not a "cheap suit", as often stated by people trying to just dismiss the whole matter and intimidate those who disagree. If it is a suit, it represents elements of sophistication far beyond the norm for the time.

2. The "Roger could make the suit because he's a. . . (fill in your favorite noun, artist, saddlemaker, con man, or whatever)" idea is delusional and nothing I've seen in six months of study is even remotely supportive of that wishful thinking by many skeptics.

3. If the film is a hoaxed event with a human in a suit, I assume that professionals must have been involved in making the suit and working with it during the filming event, and any explanation that a hoaxed film event was done by three guys (including the one wearing the supposed suit) when none had any documented professional level filmmaking experience, such an explanation I would regard as delusional fantasy.
 
Last edited:
Skeptical measurements tend to be shorter.

The actual height doesn't matter in the proportions. The IM index, e.g., is a ratio. She could be 2'10" and still have the same inhuman proportions.

What's this "aunt bunny" stuff?.

1) I believe that one bigfoot proponent placed the height in the 6 foot 2 range. Maybe I got that wrong. What is the accepted height for "aunt bunny" anyway? Can you produce a value?

2) The IM index is a false measurement and you know it. We have been over this already. Can you point to where the bones end and start in these pictures? You can't. Additionally, if it were a suit, it would make the measurements inaccurate. I also pointed out that Bob H. in the suit measured to have an IM index of about 79 when I attempted to do it. Meldrum could not even get an accurate measurement and, instead, gave a range of 80-90. Who is to say his margin for error could drop the IM index to 72?

3) Watch Eddie Murphy. He claimed his "aunt bunny" was a woman that was once a bigfoot that his uncle shaved and taught to talk. Funny stuff. Who knows, maybe it is "aunt bunny" in the film. "Gooney goo-goo"
 
Last edited:
I have not offered any final conclusion yet, but I find far more indications Patty is not a suit than indications she may be.

When you are ready, feel free to lay out your case here. Assuming you so desire. My original request stands. Give us the top ten reasons in detail for why you think it can not be a guy in a suit. If you are not ready, then you should not be stating or indicating to the proponents you don't think it is a guy in a suit or words to that effect.

I'm not saying anything to cater to any crowd. I'm expressing my thoughts and describing my studies as best I can. A few people on each side of the issues seem to misunderstand what I say or write. Offhand, I'd say those on the skeptical side of the fence have a higher propensity for misunderstanding me, based on my reading of their remarks.

So you have no conclusion. Is that correct? Then why is LAL saying:

I also listened to the interview with Bill Munns and I'm astounded that any of you can still be arguing for a suit. Talk about wishful thinking! ?

You must have given her the impression that a guy in a suit is near impossible. If that is not the case, then you should direct your comments to her and not me.

I accept that yours is a "work in progress" and choose not to comment anymore. However, when proponents are stating that you are eliminating the idea that it is a guy in a suit, then you need to correct them and not me. For some reason, you are not concerned how proponents interpret what you say and write. Is there a double standard?
 
Last edited:
The actual height doesn't matter in the proportions. The IM index, e.g., is a ratio. She could be 2'10" and still have the same inhuman proportions.

Ah, but to get an accurate IM index one must measure the actual bones, otherwise what are you using for a measuring standard?

The IM index is a false measurement and you know it.

Yes, it's been pointed out numerous time to LAL, yet she continues to peddle shoddy science, because apparently, if you repeat something often enough it becomes true. :rolleyes:

Don't you think someone who's been researching since 1957 might know more about it than people who get their information from the media and other posters on the Internet?

Longevity means nothing when you speculate. Since he hasn't provided one single bit of information about sasquatch that's been confirmed, no, I don't think he knows. He's provided us with some entertaining stories, lots of conjecture, and opinions that range from conservative to outlandish, but unless he's got a squatch sitting in a freezer somewhere, it all amounts to nothing.

I think he mentioned someone (no names, of course) claiming he built the suit in Apes Among Us, published, when? 1986?

His Sasquatch: The Apes Among Us was published in 1978.

RayG
 
Last edited:
2. The "Roger could make the suit because he's a. . . (fill in your favorite noun, artist, saddlemaker, con man, or whatever)" idea is delusional and nothing I've seen in six months of study is even remotely supportive of that wishful thinking by many skeptics.

Ironic, but it's been suggested by some bigfoot advocates that "Roger could NOT make the suit because he's only a. . . (fill in your favorite noun, rodeo rider, artist, saddlemaker, con man, or whatever)".

It seems skeptics overestimate and advocates underestimate the ingenuity of us humans. :rolleyes:

RayG
 
Astrophotographer:

"you are not concerned how proponents interpret what you say and write. Is there a double standard? "

No. I have corrected people who misunderstand me regardless of which side of the argument they are on.

The internet world is far bigger than I can monitor, and I can't follow every person's comments about me. So it's not possible for me to correct everything, and it would be futile for me to try.

I've let a lot of things slide even on this forum because they were too petty to respond to.

What I posted above is from my own website. It's my explaination of the status of my studies in this subject.

I'm doing the best i can to try and clear up misunderstandings about my efforts. If you want to fault me for not doing enough, you are entitled to your point of view.

Bill

Ray G.

"Ironic, but it's been suggested by some bigfoot advocates that "Roger could NOT make the suit because he's only a. . . (fill in your favorite noun, rodeo rider, artist, saddlemaker, con man, or whatever)".

It seems skeptics overestimate and advocates underestimate the ingenuity of us humans."


For what it's worth, I estimate a person's capability to make suits based on 35 plus years of doing it, and about 15 years of teaching people to do it, and through all that time, appraising the ability of others (students, crew hires, etc.) to do it.

Whether that counts for anything, others can argue, as I'm sure they will.

Bill
 
Last edited:
I'm doing the best i can to try and clear up misunderstandings about my efforts. If you want to fault me for not doing enough, you are entitled to your point of view.

My only concern is you seem to be interested in taking me to task for basically restating your viewpoint. That being, you have not reached a conclusion and continue to say that is the case. I have no problem with that.

However, when I correct somebody who implies that you have stated that it is impossible or near impossible to be a guy in a suit, I begin to wonder what is being stated. You chose not to correct that person but comment on what I had stated was, or what I had interpreted to be, your last known position on the subject. Based on that, it is hard not to see a double standard in play here.

If you are afraid that people continuously misinterpret what you say and write, then I suggest you:

1) Not publicly write until you are ready to make a conclusion and defend your position.
2) Don't appear on bigfoot radio, or whatever it is called, and make comments that can be interpreted in a way you don't want to be interpreted.
3) OR maybe you can ignore what everyone is stating about your work.

Otherwise, your comments are being accepted as proof by people like LAL that it can not be a guy in a suit and interpreted by skeptics that you have made a pre-conceived conclusion contrary to what you keep stating here in this forum.
 
Last edited:
Astrophotographer:

You seem to want a perfect world and you seem to want me in particular to confine myself to it.

reality isn't as neat as you'd like it and my work will apparently never reach your personal standard of fairness.

I'll continue to post my thoughts and opinions, where i choose, and the feedback from others does help me clarify my ongoing studies. I'll continue to do interviews at my discretion. I'll try to present my ideas with as much clarity as I can, but some people will misunderstand me, what I say and what I've done. This is not new, nor exclusive to me.

The world if filled with stupid people who misunderstand things. I will never let them rule my life, as I'm sure you would never let them rule yours.

The difference between you and I is that i use my real name, and you don't, and my real life, real career, and real experiences are reported with far greater gossip and scrutiny than you and your actual life. So my behavior in this forum is different than yours.

I will never clear up all the misunderstandings about my life and work and thoughts, as I wish I could. But I will not allow the misunderstandings to rule or restrict my life and activities.

And i won't let you make any rules for my work. Won't happen. Complain if you like, or give it a rest. Won't change what I do.


Bill
 
And i won't let you make any rules for my work. Won't happen. Complain if you like, or give it a rest. Won't change what I do. l

Feel free to do whatever you wish but I suggest you stop whining about being misinterpreted or make yourself more clear on what you mean when you present your data.
 
Astro:

These kinds of exchanges seem to frequently descend into petty rants. I do not wish to go there, and I will assume you do not aspire to that either.

Judging by the location of you as stated in your member profile, NH, it sounds like you are in the path of Hanna.

I hope that you weather that storm without any hardship.

I see no reason for the dialogue between us above to continue, but you may have the last word if that is important to you.

Best regards,

Bill
 
Oh, I'm aware of the wide variety of descriptions, but there are people from all over North America who have described their abductors as looking like this:

[qimg]http://www3.sympatico.ca/raygavel/ufogrey.jpg[/qimg]

Bigfoot is also suspected to look like this:

[qimg]http://www3.sympatico.ca/raygavel/bigfoot0010.jpg[/qimg]

Patty on the Jenny Craig system?

RayG
Oh, no doubt about this.

I just wanted to use the opportunity th show that the alleged homogeneity of anatomic details, in both cases (UFOnauts and bigfeet), is not real. They are homogeneous in the biased eyes of certain beholders.

I suspect that, as it happens with UFOs, bigfoot image changed with time. Back in the late 50's and early 60's (or before) it was quite blurry; it could either be giant apes or giant wild humans. It changed to something like an upright gorilla in the late 60's -PGF influence- despite the fact that Patterson's sketches quite often tended to show something different, more like a large Homo erectus. Somewhere in the 90's or late 80's it "morphed" to a something like an Homo erectus or an australopithecine on steroids - Like some Patterson's sketches and Marvel's sasquatch character- even tough Patty does not look like this. I would need to take a deeper look on bigfoot imagery to confirm or deny this idea.

Its also possible that a similar thing happened with bigfoot's behavior, from gentle vegetarians to pig-throwing and deer-eviscerating beasts. Again, there's a paralell with UFOs - ETs started as gentle folks warning us against the dangers of nuclear weapons to evil genetic manipulators and anal probe inserters. Sorry for the digression, but I think its important to stress the similarities between both modern myths...
 
Oh, Somewhere in the 90's or late 80's it "morphed" to a something like an Homo erectus or an australopithecine on steroids - Like some Patterson's sketches and Marvel's sasquatch character- even tough Patty does not look like this. I would need to take a deeper look on bigfoot imagery to confirm or deny this idea.
QUOTE]

Which brings up Patterson's drawings and why they don't seem to represent the subject of the PGF. Obviously Patterson had a conception of what he thought the animals looked like and created artwork of those conceptions. Why then does the PGF creature look so unlike Patterson's own ideas? When I first saw the PGF I thought that it didn't looked at all the artist conceptions of the Yeti or other man/ape creatures that were circulating at the time.

If nothing else I think this helps disprove the idea that Patterson made the suit.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom