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God and "Free Will"

You can take the position that "free will" means that no one else is blocking your expression. Fair enough.

But, there is also a deeper level on which one may examine the term "free will." Personally, I figure that it's on this level that this thread has been more relating. That is, if you examine the processes which come to make up our subjective experience of free will from a materialist perspective you find that they must all be deterministic. Ergo the conclusion, free will itself is illusory.

Nick

Heh. I had to check my own math. :)


Free Will:
power of independent action and choice: the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion or predestination
 
Heh. I had to check my own math. :)


Free Will:
power of independent action and choice: the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion or predestination

From a reductionist perspective that which is regarded as "I" is just a collection of autonomous deterministic processes. You can just say "I have free will" and not look any deeper, which is OK if you ask me, or you can examine the processes which come to create this "I." If you do the latter so the notion of free will evaporates.

In the definition you give above, the word "independent" is mentioned. How the writer is defining "independent" is apparently as being free from external interference. However, for each action, whether apparently consciously willed or otherwise, there are internal processes (such as thinking or autonomous reactions) which are causing that action to come about. Materialism indicates that these processes are deterministic. They come about as the body interacts with the world.

It can also be that the definition given, whilst consistent with peoples' views, is merely the definition of an illusory notion. That you can create a definition of something does not mean that it actually exists.

Nick
 
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Look, it is quit simple.

1) God knows you will choose option A instead of option B at some point in your life.
2) God can't be wrong.
3) Therefore you can't choose option B -- you will choose option A.
4) Therefore you have no free will with respect to choosing option A or B. If the choice was free then you would be able to choose B.

Get it?


Yes. Assuming there is a god, and assuming that god is bent on interfering with your autonomous process.
 
From a reductionalist perspective that which is regarded as "I" is just a collection of autonomous deterministic processes. You can just say "I have free will" and not look any deeper, which is OK if you ask me, or you can examine the processes which come to create this "I." If you do the latter so the notion of free will evaporates.


Nick

Oh, I looked deep enough and long enough to crawl into a ball on a bathroom floor one day. I have witnesses, and logs of my adventures down that particular path.

I have cut the notion of 'I' and 'free will' in as many directions as I know how, and as I know others have known how and have traveled and recorded.

The notion of free will has not evaporated. That statement rests on my post re: my math check re: definition of free will.

I have read Hofstadter, Alfred Bester, psychology, biology, physics..hemeneutics, syntax, etymology, mathematics, chaos, AI, singularity, synchronicity, Neal Stephenson, most religions, most philosphies..etc. I do not have it all, but I do have enough foundation. Oh, -grins, and my personal favorite: metaphysics.

I agree with regards to a string of deterministic processes. I also agree that we have free will with regards to the directions those incremental processes take.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondeterministic_algorithm

I have a better site, but I have to dig through the memory files for a moment.

Tell me your equation that says free will does not exist.
 
Who lifted my arm? Who scratched my balls with my hand? (Well there was that one time ... )

Maybe someone else chooses to do those things for you ... ?

I have to take a moment to laugh with regards to your choice of analogy.
 
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In the definition you give above, the word "independent" is mentioned. How the writer is defining "independent" is apparently as being free from external interference. However, for each action, whether apparently consciously willed or otherwise, there are internal processes (such as thinking or autonomous reactions) which are causing that action to come about. Materialism indicates that these processes are deterministic. They come about as the body interacts with the world.

Nick

Independent:

1. not controlled by another: in politics, free from the authority, control, or domination of somebody or something else, especially not controlled by another state or organization and able to self-govern
2. able to function by self: able to operate alone because not dependent on somebody or something else
Each wheel has an independent suspension system.
3. self-supporting: not forced to rely on another for money or support
financially independent
4. showing confidence in self: capable of thinking or acting without consultation with or guidance from others
an independent thinker
5. done without obstruction: carried out or operating without interference or influence from interested parties
an independent investigation
6. sufficient to live on: providing the means on which to live without having to work
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861620826/independent.html


It's acting freely from being dictated by a controlling force. I won't go into the correlations between the outer and the inner forces.

However, if we are talking re: a dictating controlling force that comes from outside, in this case a god re: the OP's piece;

and if we are talking about free will as not operating solely upon compelling or predestined forces;

the proof shows free will exists by -those- definitions. We can react to a force, or not react to a force, or we can choose what our reaction will be.
 
I agree with regards to a string of deterministic processes. I also agree that we have free will with regards to the directions those incremental processes take.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondeterministic_algorithm

No.

The meta-behavior of a nondeterministic state machine is either deterministic or random. There is no "free will" involved.

Tell me your equation that says free will does not exist.

Events are either determined (we can predict the outcome of the event exactly) or random (we can predict a range of outcomes that lie within a probability distribution that can be mathematically described).

Free will (in the context of this thread) would lead to an event whose outcome is decided by a third as yet undefined type of process.

If you don't think such a process exists, then there is nothing to argue about -- none of us do either.

If you think it does, then feel free to define and describe it. You would be the first human in thousands of years to be able to...
 
Well, I mention my own views at the beginning just to make it clear that we are discussing hypothetical entities. My own experience is that neither "God" nor "free will" survive even a relatively low level of rational scrutinisation. So for me it is not so much to pre-judge the issue and disqualify God but to point out that simple examination indicates that God-belief is nonsensical anyway.

It's rather like we're discussing the Tooth Fairy and debating whether or not it can be conclusively be demonstrated to show up before or after midnight.



You can say this, but to me this is part of the fantasy. Can you give me any incidence where determinism is transcended? This is the whole thing with God and free will. These concepts are for people who simply don't want to examine anything too closely. If the mind has no experience whatsoever of a situation, it cannot model it. All it can do is refuse to look too closely and drift into fantasy.

Nick

I think we're basically in agreement, and your tooth fairy analogy is apt. But I still say that if you're going to debate the question of when the tooth fairy comes, you cannot predicate it on rules that forbid the tooth fairy to exist. Otherwise the debate is not in good faith. If there's a God, by the conventional definition, that god must transcend time, logic and determinism. If you can't stipulate that at the beginning, then there's no way to debate on what God can or cannot do. It doesn't matter that I or you cannot model that transcendence. If the ability to model what we define is a requirement, then clearly we cannot model God either, and the debate dies as soon as the thread title is read.

Topic: "God and Free Will."

Posts 1 through n: "God who?"

And I still say, that if it is possible for "God" to exist according to the conventional definition, then it ought to be equally possible for him to provide free will in whatever form theologians might wish to define it. He ought to be able to say "I choose not to exercise my omniscience with regard to human beings (and the transcendent, non-logical souls I have given them), in order that they may have truly free will, just as I choose not to exercise my omnipotence at every occasion, in order that the world may operate under its own power."

A god worth his salt should be able to set up the world in whatever way amuses him.
 
And I still say, that if it is possible for "God" to exist according to the conventional definition, then it ought to be equally possible for him to provide free will in whatever form theologians might wish to define it.

OK, let's take a look. What's the "conventional definition?"

Nick
 
It's acting freely from being dictated by a controlling force. I won't go into the correlations between the outer and the inner forces.

However, if we are talking re: a dictating controlling force that comes from outside, in this case a god re: the OP's piece;

and if we are talking about free will as not operating solely upon compelling or predestined forces;

the proof shows free will exists by -those- definitions. We can react to a force, or not react to a force, or we can choose what our reaction will be.

But that experience of apparent choice is created by internal process. How can there possibly be free will?

It seems to me you're suggesting that there lives a little man in your head who chooses this way or that, and who apparently doesn't have an internal process himself.

Nick
 
OK, let's take a look. What's the "conventional definition?"

Nick

Arighty then...

A definition of God is needed.

There are no judgment calls, in my book, regarding that definition.

There is one request: If God is defined in terms of abstract notion e.g. good, radiant, omniscient..., that is fine.

If God is defined in terms of a physical notion e.g. a man, a tree...., that is fine.

If God is defined in terms of both abstract and physical notions, that is fine but list them in separate notations.
 
...It seems to me you're suggesting that there lives a little man in your head who chooses this way or that, and who apparently doesn't have an internal process himself.

Nick
Every homunculus has a little homunculus inside it, like those Russian dolls.
 
But that experience of apparent choice is created by internal process. How can there possibly be free will?

It seems to me you're suggesting that there lives a little man in your head who chooses this way or that, and who apparently doesn't have an internal process himself.

Nick

Ok. There is an internal process. Agreed. There is external process. Agreed. These things interact. The internal process is not dictated solely by the external process.

Let me state for the record, I have no little man in my head. :D There was once a few moments that I had several Little Women in my head, but that is a story, and it's for another day.

I do not suggest that a little man lives in anyone's head.
 
This comes up over and over again, but let's just assume: Creator, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, unbounded and eternal, and sufficiently 'supernatural' to have created the universe.

Ok. These are words to describe. (These are words that I happen to like.)

My question is this: Is there a physical entity with whom you are attributing those words? Or, is there a physical entity with which you are attributing those words?
 
Ok. There is an internal process. Agreed. There is external process. Agreed. These things interact. The internal process is not dictated solely by the external process.

Let me state for the record, I have no little man in my head. :D There was once a few moments that I had several Little Women in my head, but that is a story, and it's for another day.

I do not suggest that a little man lives in anyone's head.

Then what actually is it that is making choices with free will?

Nick
 
This comes up over and over again, but let's just assume: Creator, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, unbounded and eternal, and sufficiently 'supernatural' to have created the universe.

Made a bit of a ****ing mess of it, hasn't he? I mean, look around you, does it look like the work of an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent and unbounded Creator? It sure doesn't to me.

Nick
 
Rocketdodger said:
Events are either determined (we can predict the outcome of the event exactly) or random (we can predict a range of outcomes that lie within a probability distribution that can be mathematically described).

Free will (in the context of this thread) would lead to an event whose outcome is decided by a third as yet undefined type of process.

If you don't think such a process exists, then there is nothing to argue about -- none of us do either.

If you think it does, then feel free to define and describe it. You would be the first human in thousands of years to be able to...
Sorry, I've been away on vacation and then catching up with work. Did we get an answer to this? I can't seem to find one.

~~ Paul
 
Then what actually is it that is making choices with free will?

Nick

What I know is that a human being is making choices. A human being who is a culmination of many things. I'll leave it brief. A human being who is a culmination of flesh and the variety of systems that make up his physical being e.g. chemical system, electrical system, hormonal system...

This human being exists in a world with other human beings and elements.

Although he exists in a world with other human beings and elements, his choices are not solely controlled by those other human beings and elements.
 
Theorist, William Lane Craig has put it this way and this is the point that I'm trying to make when trying to convey the apparent flaws in this argument:

I transcribed it from a video, because I can't do links I don't think.

Explaining the view of this argument:
"Foreknowledge equals foreordination, simply by knowing something will happen, that thing is foreordained to happen, and therefore human freedom is effectively removed. On this basis even the fall of man into sin was foreordained by God, it was necessary and pre-destined. Now, this view, however, not only removes human freedom but also rests very uncomfortably with the idea that God is not the author of sin, God is not the evil and yet on this view it would seem that by foreknowing Adam's fall into sin that God, in effect, foreordained it, that really, sin is the result of not Adam's choice, but God's choice, which I think ought to make all of us somewhat uncomfortable with this view."

His solution:
"Rather, I think a better response to this problem is to deny this equivalence, to say that foreknowledge does not equal foreordination. I think it's better to say that God knows in advance what choices people will freely make and that the free decisions of human beings, determines what foreknowledge God has of them, rather than the reverse. The foreknowledge doesn't determine the free decisions, rather the free decisions, in effect, determine the foreknowledge."

The part I think you'll hate:
"And here, we can distinguish between what we might call chronological priority and, logical priority. Chronological priority would mean that one thing comes earlier in time than something else and God's knowledge is chronologically prior to the event that he foreknows. But, logically speaking the event is prior to God's foreknowledge, so God's foreknowledge is chronologically prior to the event, but the event is logically prior to the foreknowledge. In other words, the event doesn't happen because God foreknows it, God foreknows it because it will happen. You see the event is logically prior to the foreknowledge; he foreknows it because it will happen, even though the knowledge is chronologically prior to the event that God foreknows."

His example:
"So, foreknowledge, on this view, would be sort of like foreshadowing, of something. When you see the shadow of someone say, coming around the corner, you see their shadow on the ground before you see the person, you know that person is about to come around the corner. But the shadow doesn't determine the person, right, it's the person who throws the shadow, who determines the shadow. And foreknowledge is sort of like the shadow, the foreshadow of future events, as it were. By seeing this foreshadowing you know the events that will happen, but the shadow doesn't determine what the reality is, it's the reality that determines the shadow. So, if you think of God's foreknowledge as sort of the foreshadowing of things to come, I think you can see that just because God knows something will happen, doesn't mean that therefore that foreknowledge, in any way prejudices or removes the freedom of that event that will happen. In fact, if that events were to happen differently, then God's foreknowledge would have been different."

Another example, which I can't be bothered transcribing is the idea of an infallible barometer. He says that "whatever the barometer says, because it's infallible, you know what the weather will be like." It's exactly in line with his arguments, the barometer does not determine the weather, it's the weather that determines the barometer.

If it's confusing, I understand but read it, it took me ages to transcribe.

Replies?
Alex.
 

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