Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[LAL]

Can you provide the original comment? I'm not really worried about it. Roger may have started filming Heironimus from horseback and that's the way he remembered it. How do you explain a guy with three separate instances of connection with Patterson and Gimlin in connection to the film claiming involvement in a Patterson hoax?

Considering you still refuse to accept the reality of the MIM gaff, I'm guessing it's not any cause for alarm to you. Ignorance is bliss they say.

Bob's comment is in the NatGeo special, I believe. The English clip was posted by darkwing, but since there are no speakers on the school computers I can't check to see if the comment is there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQU1Q8YEsvw&feature=related

I noticed Nat Geo didn't use the reenactment, or even keep the camera on the suit for long. They screwed up enough showing a trackway from Blue Creek Mountain, which was on a Ryerson operation, while saying tracks showed up on Ray Wallace's job sites. No mention he'd moved to Washington in 1961 and OM/BCM was in 1967.

Tell Parcher I wasn't addressing him.

Isn't an anticipated sale to a tabloid for $50,000 explanation enough?

This is honest Bob and dishonest Philip on TV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTcDdyHv10&feature=related

Since Frank Hansen himself told Sanderson and Heuvelmans he'd had a model made and that was known when they made their examination I don't see why this was ever a surprise. Langdon and Hansen have different people sewing in the hair. Was it yak or bear?

Details on the making of the model don't rule out the possibility that the model was of something real. Sanderson's report (reprinted in Byrne's book) makes it hard to believe they could have missed something so obvious as two or three hairs in the same hole.

I'm not saying I think the original was real, but I don't "know" it was a hoax, either.

I think it's possible Roger filmed Heironimus in a costume for the documentary he was making, but I don't think that's what we see in the film.

 

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

If we're going to accept the tree knot photo as an accurate indication of McClarin being taller than Patty then there are certain other comparisons that get posted from time to time that are no less inaccuate yet becaue they raise questions that fly in the face of the skeptic community are debunked as unuseable for a virtual laundry list of reasons.

From post #10:

"Putting the crest height past about 6'3", means you have to deal with the foot being longer than 14.5" which means the foot no longer matches
the tracks that were cast, etc., etc., ...."

 

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

Since Frank Hansen himself told Sanderson and Heuvelmans he'd had a model made and that was known when they made their examination

Could you post a source for that over in the Minnesota Iceman thread? Didn't Sanderson and Heuvelmans says that there's no way what they saw could have been a model?

Langdon and Hansen have different people sewing in the hair. Was it yak or bear?

Podcast.

Details on the making of the model don't rule out the possibility that the model was of something real.

Again. PODCAST. By the logic you're using, Hansen also had a real crashed spaceship and alien bodies that he needed replicas of.

Sanderson's report (reprinted in Byrne's book) makes it hard to believe they could have missed something so obvious as two or three hairs in the same hole.

Ice hides details. Well, that, and Sanderson's knowledge of special effects was laughable. After all, there's that now classic "chickens in dinosaur costumes" quote of his (down near the bottom)

I'm not saying I think the original was real, but I don't "know" it was a hoax, either.

Why do I have the feeling you're going to avoid listening to the podcast or reading that JREF Iceman thread?

 

[Crowlogic]

The TBRC has run a long-term well funded camera trap project in prime alleged Bigfoot territory and as expected no mythical man beasts have been captured on tape.

QUOTE]

BRFO is well funded? How well funded? Any figures? Have you audited the books? Back in the 60's there was UFO research group called NICAP. Got a ton of publicity etc but was little more than a desk a telephone and a typewriter.

 

[LAL]

The same length compared to what? Forget the digital skeleton, what actual bones did they use for comparison purposes?

RayG

Not John's, apparently. Could he be measuring with and without the hand? I have no idea how long John's hands are.

The point is the extra length has to be added below the elbow and as some of the costume photos you and others have posted so clearly show, that doesn't look natural (or like Patty) at all.

 

[LAL]

Why do I have the feeling you're going to avoid listening to the podcast or reading that JREF Iceman thread?

The source is Ivan Sanderson.

I did all the research I could do on it (short of ordering Mike Quast's book) on BFF quite some time ago. We even got into the genetic sequence for agouti hair in the lesser apes. It got so hot I had to call in a mod. I do not want to go through all that again.

I have work four days a week (9-10 hrs. a day recently) and school three (Wednesdays are optional but I had to go in today to finish an assignment that's due Friday when I won't be there). I'm a moderator on another board. I barely have time for this thread, let alone any others on JREF.

I've downloaded two podcasts so far and now I have to clean out memory again and get Verne into the laptop so I can try to listen at work if it's slow enough. I just got home from grocery shopping and all I want to do is lie down and do nothing.

Do you mind?

 

[LAL]

I've never seen that frame before. Who is the human? I notice he's wearing a long sleeve shirt as opposed to the T shirt that McClarin is wearing. Whoever made the photo seems to have gotten the framing perfectly.

The caption says it's Jim McClarin. I don't recall anything about them making more than one reenactment but maybe they did. He could have taken the long-sleeved shirt off because it was too warm. Men in the 60's usually wore T-shirts under their shirts, even in California (I was living there then). We should have asked him when he was on BFF.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I've never seen that frame before. Who is the human? I notice he's wearing a long sleeve shirt as opposed to the T shirt that McClarin is wearing. Whoever mde the photo seems to have gotten the framing perfectly.

That is just a frame from the McClarin footage on LMS ... No long sleeves, just a blurry picture..

Here is a copy I just made:

The foreground is aligned, but you have no way of knowing how far away each subject is from the camera.

Either subject could be a three foot midget just behind the debris, and the other a 20 foot giant a hundred feet away ..

Not that I'm claiming either one is the case, just pointing out it is impossible to tell without some established reference..

hint:

 

[Crowlogic]

[qimg]http://www.bigfootencounters.com/images/billmiller13.gif[/qimg]

That is just a frame from the McClarin footage on LMS ... No long sleeves, just a blurry picture..

Here is a copy I just made:

[qimg]http://www.gatzstuff.com/images/Bigfoot/clarin.gif[/qimg]

The foreground is aligned, but you have no way of knowing how far away each subject is from the camera.

Either subject could be a three foot midget just behind the debris, and the other a 20 foot giant a hundred feet away ..

Not that I'm claiming either one is the case, just pointing out it is impossible to tell without some established reference..

hint:

[qimg]http://www.sideshowworld.com/RW1Big%20Jim1a.JPG[/qimg]

Thanks for clearing that up. In some of the McClarin comparisons he appears taller than Patty and in others like the posted photo he's as tall. So we can't be certain of either figures height in comparison. However I've seen the McClarin film in full a few times and what strikes me is not only his upright normal human posture but the absence of the sense of mass we see in PGF. Even in the more unflattering frame rates the bulk/mass still comes though.

 

[LAL]

Does anyone have the whole reenactment? I found a clip on YouTube, but it's only the first part.

Here's the source, AMM.

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/iceman.htm

Bear hair. This was a big deal on BFF because bear hair is agouti. So is Squirrel Monkey hair.

S&H found two companies claiming they made models. Note the date: 1969.

Verne's downloaded. I'll look forward to trying to work in headphones.

 

[Aepervius]

[qimg]http://www.bigfootencounters.com/images/billmiller13.gif[/qimg]

That is just a frame from the McClarin footage on LMS ... No long sleeves, just a blurry picture..

Here is a copy I just made:

[qimg]http://www.gatzstuff.com/images/Bigfoot/clarin.gif[/qimg]

The foreground is aligned, but you have no way of knowing how far away each subject is from the camera.

Either subject could be a three foot midget just behind the debris, and the other a 20 foot giant a hundred feet away ..

Not that I'm claiming either one is the case, just pointing out it is impossible to tell without some established reference..

hint:

[qimg]http://www.sideshowworld.com/RW1Big%20Jim1a.JPG[/qimg]

Actually they don't seem to be in the same plan in a very obvious way. Mclarrin seems behind the debris, and behind a small stuff where is leg disappear, whereas patty seem to have her leg before the small pile where is leg disappear but behind debris.

Naturally that don't help a bit to guess size, but it should be clear they are not even in the same plan.

 

[kitakaze]

Bob's comment is in the NatGeo special, I believe. The English clip was posted by darkwing, but since there are no speakers on the school computers I can't check to see if the comment is there.

There's nothing at all in that clip that is problematic for Heironimus' story.

Isn't an anticipated sale to a tabloid for $50,000 explanation enough?

Anticipated? Did Bob get $50,000? It's well established that he's the only person to have claimed to be in the suit and been doing it for a long time.

I think it's possible Roger filmed Heironimus in a costume for the documentary he was making, but I don't think that's what we see in the film.

Got it. MIM might be copy of real wild man and maybe Patterson had Heironimus in a suit but not PGF. Now this may be presumptuous but I think, and I'm just throwing this out there, that you recognize as much as me that it's nearly certain that Heironimus was Patty. I don't think anybody with any sense at all can know the things we know and think otherwise. I also recognize that acknowledging the dubious nature of the case for Patty puts you in the precarious situation. There's an attachment to the film and an intellectual and emotional investment in it after arguing for it for years.

I think letting go of the MIM is going to be a Litmus test for you, Lu. If you can drop that thing in the garbage where it belongs than breaking the Patty dependance becomes an achievable goal. You can do it!

BTW, MABRC is down right now, is it not?

 

[kitakaze]

The TBRC has run a long-term well funded camera trap project in prime alleged Bigfoot territory and as expected no mythical man beasts have been captured on tape.

BRFO is well funded? How well funded? Any figures? Have you audited the books?

Isn't it weird how what you've quoted me on there isn't quite what you're commenting on? I think you were looking for this:

BFRO has money, funding, and no reliable Bigfoot evidence.

Does the BFRO have money and funding? Yes. Do I need to audit their finacial records to know that? No. What a silly thing to say.

Let's see, private funding by 73 year old millionaire Wally Hersom + expedition revenues at $300 per head = .... umm, gimme a second, I'm thinking about it... Yep, got it. = money and funding.

Here's a BFF thread about it:

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=21161&st=0&p=426916&#entry426916

 

[kitakaze]

Here's a fun article about Hersom and Moneymaker by Loren Coleman where he does his best not to cry and start panhandling:

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/bfro/

Little known fact:

Hersom says he has only heard Bigfoot, but many within the group report more intimate encounters. They describe a giant apelike creature that walks on two feet and appears to have its own language (called “Samurai” for its sing-song resemblance to un-dubbed ninja warrior movies).

Isn't that fantastic? Bigfoot speaks Japanese! How lucky am I? OK, kids, you have a Bigfoot in your back yard throwing a pig? Forget trying to take a picture with your cell phone. He'll just point at it and laugh about how big and old it looks. Just roll a karaoke machine out in the yard with some beer, get it on tape, e-mail it to me and I'll translate it for you for $300 a pop.

But be careful!:

Bigfoot also is, some say, capable of projecting a paralyzing telepathic feeling of fear that stuns humans and animals alike. Moneymaker uses the term “infrasound” and calls the experience being “zapped.”

You've been warned. Happy hunting!

 

[LAL]

Dude...

Dude? I'm female, son.

 

[LAL]

There's nothing at all in that clip that is problematic for Heironimus' story.

Anticipated? Did Bob get $50,000? It's well established that he's the only person to have claimed to be in the suit and been doing it for a long time.

Got it. MIM might be copy of real wild man and maybe Patterson had Heironimus in a suit but not PGF. Now this may be presumptuous but I think, and I'm just throwing this out there, that you recognize as much as me that it's nearly certain that Heironimus was Patty. I don't think anybody with any sense at all can know the things we know and think otherwise. I also recognize that acknowledging the dubious nature of the case for Patty puts you in the precarious situation. There's an attachment to the film and an intellectual and emotional investment in it after arguing for it for years.

I think letting go of the MIM is going to be a Litmus test for you, Lu. If you can drop that thing in the garbage where it belongs than breaking the Patty dependance becomes an achievable goal. You can do it!

BTW, MABRC is down right now, is it not?

Nope. I just checked it and posted last night in an area you can't see. It was hacked once, but DW had it up and running in short order. He's a professional computer geek.

As far as I'm concerned, the case for Patty is rock solid. Heironimus was trying to sell his story for years, but he didn't get anywhere with it until Long bit. The man's proportions are normal human and he looks like a big teddy bear in the Morris suit. If Patterson ever did film him for the documentary I'd guess he sidelined the film as unuseable.

Patricia Patterson has rolls of film Roger took. If by chance there's film of Bob in a suit there, it would be very interesting to compare it to the PGF. She has a master copy, BTW.

Have you actually read Sanderson's articles? In the one I linked to, Sanderson said Hansen told them in January of that year (1969) there was a model made in 1967. He not only considered the original might have been fabricated, he speculated how it might have been done.

I bought the original Argosy MIM issue when I was living in Portland and beginning to take an interest in all this, mostly because there was a sighting with track evidence just miles from where we were planning to live.

Years later I ran across something on the Net saying the MIM was a hoax, so I just assumed it was. No big deal. It wasn't until I started looking into it during the debate on BFF that I realized it's not that open and shut. Whatever the original was it's disappeared, so there's no way to know for sure.

It's interesting either way.

You seem to have an emotional investment in converting me to your POV. Will it break your heart when I say it's not going to happen?

 

[LAL]

There's nothing at all in that clip that is problematic for Heironimus' story.

He says Roger was up on his (Bob's) horse and that's not problematic?

No padding was used, huh? (Click to activate.)

 

[LAL]

Actually they don't seem to be in the same plan in a very obvious way. Mclarrin seems behind the debris, and behind a small stuff where is leg disappear, whereas patty seem to have her leg before the small pile where is leg disappear but behind debris.

Naturally that don't help a bit to guess size, but it should be clear they are not even in the same plan.

AS I see it he's behind the stump and she's stepping out from behind it. She's behind it here:

 

[Skeptical Greg]

He says Roger was up on his (Bob's) horse and that's not problematic?

No padding was used, huh? (Click to activate.)

In the mind of Pattycakes " like an old time football helmet " becomes a modern NFL helmet with a face guard, so BH's story is flawed..

In this case, no separate padding , other than what was sewn into the suit becomes ' no padding was used ' .....

The problems with BH's story, fall far short of the problems with identifying the subject in the film as a non-human North American primate...

 

[Skeptical Greg]

.... She has a master copy, BTW.