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Is Primal Therapy woo?

just one example among many.....electroconvulsive therapy is a popular idea....not a scientific one. It is widely accepted around the world by various 'scientisits'. It is becoming popular again here in New Zealand.

Electroconvulsive therapists readily admit that they know very little about what the electricity is doing to the brain. The therapy is designed to 'force' the patient to exhibit behaviour that is more suitable for integration with society.

Dr. Janov's Primal Center is opposed to Electroconvulsive therapy. They back up all of their statements and claims with very detailed, well documented, and well reviewed information. Not all of their information is popular. It is up to the individual to decide.
 
just one example among many.....electroconvulsive therapy is a popular idea....not a scientific one. It is widely accepted around the world by various 'scientisits'. It is becoming popular again here in New Zealand.

Electroconvulsive therapists readily admit that they know very little about what the electricity is doing to the brain. The therapy is designed to 'force' the patient to exhibit behaviour that is more suitable for integration with society.

Dr. Janov's Primal Center is opposed to Electroconvulsive therapy. They back up all of their statements and claims with very detailed, well documented, and well reviewed information. Not all of their information is popular. It is up to the individual to decide.

I think you may have some misconceptions about ECT. I'd suggest you do some thorough research on the topic.

Did you bother to check out the site I mentioned?

http://debunkingprimaltherapy.com/

This site realistically portrays what I'm on about.

If you're happy to throw your money at every beguiling bag of nonsense that's out there, then I can't stop you. But here's a surprise -- I got more from reading and applying the ideas presented in the book, A New Guide to Rational Living by Albert Ellis and Robert Harper than I got from 18 months of PT. And the book cost me all of $11.95 in 1980s Australian dollars.

Before you convince yourself of the efficacy of PT (or any other woo notions), try to imagine how it might not be efficacious. Take the skeptic's role and see what you come up with.

Seriously, I have known at least two hundred "primallers" here in Australia, and I don't think a one of them actually progressed in their lives due directly to PT. Some, like me, sort of woke up and realized that perhaps they were being conned, or perhaps they expected too much. One of the "therapists" who sat with me left PT behind and went on to university to obtain a degree in psychology. That is to say, while practicing PT she had no qualifications of any sort, except that she'd been through the "therapy" as a client/patient.

None of this is to say definitively that PT doesn't help some people. I just have seen no evidence of it.


M.
 
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just one example among many.....electroconvulsive therapy is a popular idea....not a scientific one. It is widely accepted around the world by various 'scientisits'. It is becoming popular again here in New Zealand.

Electroconvulsive therapists readily admit that they know very little about what the electricity is doing to the brain. The therapy is designed to 'force' the patient to exhibit behaviour that is more suitable for integration with society...
When I worked as an aide in a private psychiatric hospital, I got to babysit patients who were given insulin shock therapy and electroconvulsive shock. When I asked the chief psychiatrist how it worked he gave me a bunch of reprints to read about the history of the treatment, but no rationale of why it was supposed to work. When questioned further he said, "It's like when your TV is on the fritz. Sometimes if you whack it, it clears up the problem."
It is now known as a case of avoidance conditioning. You get shocked every day until you cheer up.
 
When I worked as an aide in a private psychiatric hospital, I got to babysit patients who were given insulin shock therapy and electroconvulsive shock. When I asked the chief psychiatrist how it worked he gave me a bunch of reprints to read about the history of the treatment, but no rationale of why it was supposed to work. When questioned further he said, "It's like when your TV is on the fritz. Sometimes if you whack it, it clears up the problem."
It is now known as a case of avoidance conditioning. You get shocked every day until you cheer up.

That's about as jaundiced a view as I've seen. Have you bothered to try to find any positive outcomes for ECT and the like?


M.
 


Lots of data is documented, and you will need to look at that as critically as any other "evidence."

There are actually people out there -- look for them -- who chose ECT because nothing else worked. There were side effects, but not unexpected. For some, ECT is the only thing that worked.

On the face of it it might look barbaric, but it is anything but. It's not for most, but it is for some the treatment of choice. I would not deny them that choice, no matter what my preconceptions are/were.

Note that I'm talking about seriously ill people here, people for whom nothing else worked and who survived multiple suicide attempts before their ECT. It does make a difference in some people's lives, whether you like it or not.


M.
 
Hi again Moochie.

Just for the record, the Primal Therapy practiced in Australia is entirely different to the 'real' Primal Therapy practiced in Venice, California. The Dr. Janov Primal Center is the one that first started Primal Therapy and has by far the most experience and knowledge with the Primal process. The Dr. Arthur Janov Primal Center considers the Australian practices to be highly dangerous, and do not associate themselves with these 'mock' primal therapists.



Moochie, you have given me a link to an author who does not supply any evidence in any form, that can show that Primal Therapy is unsafe or ineffective. Instead, the author asks many questions, as if the questions are proof in themselves.

The author does not seem to be aware that the questions have already been answered in great detail in the books that the author claims to have read. The author seems to make implications about primal therapy techniques, without being clear as to whether the techniques mentioned are actual techinques practiced at the Dr. Janov Primal Center, or just hypothetical techniques to fit a hypothetical situation. There's a lot of "what if..." and "don't you think..." in this student's website.

I could go from one link to the next, to search for the promised evidence, but I always end up with opinions and speculations and hypotheses. Much of this information is backed up with more opinions and speculations and hypotheses. I guess eventually one could be confused into thinking this is evidence.

I am so tired of this crap.

If the author had some bad experiences at the Primal Center, and is now psychologically no better or even worse....then that is sad and unfortunate.

Do you want to provide a link that points directly to some hard evidence?

You won't find any. Nor will you find any for the 'mainstream' therapies.

This is why there is no governing body that has the power to stop some of the most apalling techniques (in my opinion) that are almost as bad as lobotomy.

There is no governing body that has the power to stop surgeons from conducting unnecessary experiments on unborn children. I'm talking about experiments that cause psychological trauma on the person in the womb. I have witnessed television footage of such events. I have witnessed television footage of a woman being brought back to semi-consciousness (by greatly reducing the anaesthetic) so that she could answer the surgeon's questions, while her heart was exposed and beating for everyone to see.
The pain caused by these surgical techniques is not always felt by the patient....the pain is repressed by the patient...much to the fascination of the surgeon.

There is no governing body that has the power to stop Electroconvulsive Therapy. There is no governing body that has the power to stop invasive Hypnotherapy, and 'dangerous' meditation experiments.

There is no governing body that has the power to stop a wide variety of wreckless, experimental psychotherapies.

Unless the therapist does something CRIMINAL, you can pretty much do what you like, once you are a 'qualified' therapist.

This is the real world we live in. The therapist or surgeon or cult leader is innocent until PROVEN guilty.

My friend suffered a psychotic episode during an experiment conducted by his therapist (not primal therapy). During the psychosis, the therapist began to cry and left the room. My friend was left to get through the psychotic episode on his own.

You don't need to convince me of the dangers of bad therapy. You don't need to talk to me about scientology, or any religion or cult.

Read a little more about what it feels like to experience a Primal. Apparently (I don't know for sure), a Primal is just a natural event that happens to people all over the world. Many of these people have never heard of Primal Therapy. It is when a traumatic feeling is felt properly for the first time, and understood properly for the first time. In a safe environment, this event happens naturally. When the feeling is understood properly, then the conscious mind no longer feels the need to defend against the 'invisible' feeling. The traumatic memory never goes away, but the emotional and physical reaction to the 'now visible' trauma does go away.

The ongoing effects of an 'invisible' trauma can be very subtle....but can be enough to make your life miserable. Simply not being loved enough when you are very young, is all it takes to create the 'program' that makes us over-react to the smallest problems in life.

Most patients who are successful at allowing themselves to Primal, end up experiencing most of their primals away from the Primal Center, in the safety of their own homes.

It sounds weird, but not that weird. According to the patients, the weird part is the feeling of slipping through your defences, which always has a threatening vulnerable feeling. This is the beginning of the primal, and can be the hardest part to get through. Once you get past the scarey defensive reaction, the feeling that follows is different. The PRIMAL feeling begins. The primal feeling is the feeling that belongs to the trauma. If you were burnt physically, you will feel burnt. If you were frightened in a car accident, you will feel frightened and will see and feel the accident happening. If you were rejected at a time when you really needed mummy....then you will feel rejected...etc etc. The primal feeling is the real one - the one that you were unable to feel at the time of the trauma.

I haven't explained why a traumatic feeling becomes repressed, or why we need to 'unrepress' it. It's about the way the brain protects itself and holds on to the information for later recovery. Repression is the body's way of allowing the heart to beat at a survivable rate while the trauma is happening. It takes too long to explain properly...I have to go to work now.

If primal therapy doesn't work for me, then that will be a shame....but I want to find out if it can. (NOT in Australia).
 
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Hi again Moochie.

Just for the record, the Primal Therapy practiced in Australia is entirely different to the 'real' Primal Therapy practiced in Venice, California. The Dr. Janov Primal Center is the one that first started Primal Therapy and has by far the most experience and knowledge with the Primal process. The Dr. Arthur Janov Primal Center considers the Australian practices to be highly dangerous, and do not associate themselves with these 'mock' primal therapists.

Perhaps I haven't explained my position adequately. I undertook PT in the late 70s, when it was brought to Australia by a psychiatrist who had trained with Janov. I wouldn't have a clue about PT in Australia today. I'm surprised it is still around.


Moochie, you have given me a link to an author who does not supply any evidence in any form, that can show that Primal Therapy is unsafe or ineffective. Instead, the author asks many questions, as if the questions are proof in themselves.
The site suggests a way for you to find your own evidence, if such evidence exists. It's called "the scientific method."

<snip>

I am so tired of this crap.
How do you think I feel? :)

If the author had some bad experiences at the Primal Center, and is now psychologically no better or even worse....then that is sad and unfortunate.
The author simply woke up to the fact that PT is just another fanciful method for depriving the gullible of their money, and often much more.

Do you want to provide a link that points directly to some hard evidence?
This is the same fallacious reasoning all believers in nonsense exhibit. The onus is on Janov to provide evidence, since he makes the claims, much in the same way that the onus is on god believers to provide evidence their god/s exists/s.

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.<snip>


Look, you will, of course, do as you see fit. I hope that you get out of the experience whatever it is you feel you need.

If, after properly evaluating PT using some well applied reason and logic you decide that perhaps it isn't the remarkable breakthrough it's claimed to be, you might benefit from the book A New Guide to Rational Living by Ellis & Harper. It provides sound advice and techniques for obtaining some degree of emotional maturity that have stood me in good stead for a long time now. And it appears to be based firmly in reality.

I'm not sure if it's still in print -- the copy I have is dated 1975 -- but if not, you could probably find a used copy somewhere.


M.
 
I have some doubts about PT myself, although I am a believer(since1988ish), praise the lord! :D

but when people say things like

The author simply woke up to the fact that PT is just another fanciful method for depriving the gullible of their money, and often much more

is this not a claim? Should this not be backed up by the sort of evidence that people are asking Janov to provide?


The way people talk about Primal Therapy, in terms of success or failure, one would think that the "human condition" was a simple matter like dentistry and rotten teeth-hey perhaps dentistry is a way to deprive people of their money, through suppression of chemicals that people could just swill their mouth with a few times a day to wash away all the tooth decaying crap......perhaps lots of things are a way to deprive people of their money....but perhaps, just one in ten people actually DO receive some sort of cure from primal therapy.... would that be any kind of success rate? well it would for that one person.
 
Thanks for posting that link, Moochie (you did it awhile ago, I know, but a belated "thanks" to you anyway). That's one of the best sites I've seen synthesizing a lot of stuff I've read pointing to the problems with PST.

I strongly agree with the quote from Singer et al's book Crazy Therapies regarding the severe lack of science education, critical thinking, and basic philosophy of science in many undergraduate curricula and graduate clinical psychology programs. This is a huge part of the problem, and I would also add (in the case of Andrew/Onion-- perhaps the same person?) that there is an aversion to learning about basic research methodology and philosophy of science.

Awhile ago when Andrew responded to one of my earlier posts admitting that he had never had any formal psychology or research training, I suggested that he take a look at a basic research methodology book. He ignored my suggestion and later said that he would do something along the lines of "just go and experience primal scream himself and reach his own conclusions" (not a direct quote, just to highlight his last point before he stopped posting).

This sort of belief-driven intransigence and unwillingness to learn the basics of how clinical research-practitioners go about testing therapies is a disgraceful affront to open-minded skepticism and intellectual honesty, and I really don't see the need to keep this topic afloat until PST believers offer some appropriate evidence for consideration aside from anecdotal tangents fused with psychodynamic woo.
 
Thanks for posting that link, Moochie (you did it awhile ago, I know, but a belated "thanks" to you anyway). That's one of the best sites I've seen synthesizing a lot of stuff I've read pointing to the problems with PST.

I strongly agree with the quote from Singer et al's book Crazy Therapies regarding the severe lack of science education, critical thinking, and basic philosophy of science in many undergraduate curricula and graduate clinical psychology programs. This is a huge part of the problem, and I would also add (in the case of Andrew/Onion-- perhaps the same person?) that there is an aversion to learning about basic research methodology and philosophy of science.

Awhile ago when Andrew responded to one of my earlier posts admitting that he had never had any formal psychology or research training, I suggested that he take a look at a basic research methodology book. He ignored my suggestion and later said that he would do something along the lines of "just go and experience primal scream himself and reach his own conclusions" (not a direct quote, just to highlight his last point before he stopped posting).

This sort of belief-driven intransigence and unwillingness to learn the basics of how clinical research-practitioners go about testing therapies is a disgraceful affront to open-minded skepticism and intellectual honesty, and I really don't see the need to keep this topic afloat until PST believers offer some appropriate evidence for consideration aside from anecdotal tangents fused with psychodynamic woo.


The advice to "suck it and see" is a constant refrain from hawkers of odd fantasies hereabouts. We need not step into a cake of cow dung to know what it is.


M.
 
yeah but you do need to take a sample and send it off for analyses.

I did better; I checked it out personally.

I still have some original copies of the Primal Journal, if anyone's interested.

All offers considered.

I Also have original copies of several Primal books, including what was considered a benchmark in the literature of PT by Janov and E.Michael Holden, Primal Man, The new Consciousness.

I'll let you research Holden's "contribution" to PT theory -- you might start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:GrahameKing/Archive_2

Whatever you do, please acquaint yourself with the literature and history of PT before posting from the hip.


M.
 
The uber Primal Scream song:


Mother, You had Me I never had you
I wanted you but you didn't want me
So I got to tell you
Goodbye , Goodbye

Father, You left me but I never left you
I needed you but you didn't need me
So I just got to tell you
Goodbye , Goodbye

Children, Don't do what I have done
I couldn't walk so I tried to run
So I got to tell you
Goodbye , Goodbye
 
The uber Primal Scream song:


Mother, You had Me I never had you
I wanted you but you didn't want me
So I got to tell you
Goodbye , Goodbye

Father, You left me but I never left you
I needed you but you didn't need me
So I just got to tell you
Goodbye , Goodbye

Children, Don't do what I have done
I couldn't walk so I tried to run
So I got to tell you
Goodbye , Goodbye

I think Janov was hoping Lennon would prove as durable a marketing angle is Cruise has become for $cientology. Alas, it didn't work. Lennon looked at it, and subsequently dropped it.

There's no evidence I know of that Lennon bought any of it, except, perhaps, as fodder for his art.


M.
 
I think Janov was hoping Lennon would prove as durable a marketing angle is Cruise has become for $cientology. Alas, it didn't work. Lennon looked at it, and subsequently dropped it.

There's no evidence I know of that Lennon bought any of it, except, perhaps, as fodder for his art.


M.


I remember reading a bit of the Beatle's biography, in the library about ten years ago, and there was an account of how John Lennon's father visited him, after the therapy, and how Lennon was blaming his father and saying/ranting that his father had driven him insane.

I think the father said there was a presence of evil, in the house, or something; which I can sort of understand, if one doesn't complete primal therapy, then one has opened up a very nasty can of worms, that just cause chaos.

From that account, it seems as though primal therapy was a little more than a passing interest for Lennon, although not all together positive.
 
I did better; I checked it out personally.

I still have some original copies of the Primal Journal, if anyone's interested.

All offers considered.

I Also have original copies of several Primal books, including what was considered a benchmark in the literature of PT by Janov and E.Michael Holden, Primal Man, The new Consciousness. <SNIP> M.

Yeah, I had no idea how downright bizarre some of this stuff was until I checked it out for myself. Four stars for a vivid imagination, negative four stars for reality testing.
 
I am not Andrew4589.

Try to understand the point that Andrew and I have been trying to illustrate. If you need to read books to learn how to be accurate and scientific with your thought processes, then you are unable to realise that critical thinking cannot be taught. The methods you have learned can easily lead you to the wrong conclusion if you are lost in a sea of scientific method, rather than using your natural intelligence.
Scientists often struggle to see the forest for the trees because they are often simplifying information to make it fit into a simple mathematical formula.

We live in a world that worships the sciences, so 'psychological scientists' get more credit and freedom than they deserve.

Most scientists dealing with astronomy, believe that they know the size of the universe, and how it began. Their methodical thinking has led them to a confident conclusion, despite the fact that they have left out some very basic variables which prove their theories to be nothing more than hypothetical. These conclusive scientists feel secure in their group, and often refer to the 'outsiders' as weirdos and crazy and rediculous etc. A few years later the outsiders prove that the 'insiders' methods are flawed, and so the science changes, and so on.

Forensic science all around the world has been woefully unscientific for over 30 years, and many convicted people have recently been proven to be innocent. Forensic methods are now changing rapidly.

But wait....shrinks are smarter than that....right??? You be the judge.

If you actually think about this point:
it is impossible to prove what a person is feeling
then you might realise that your argument for proper scientific evaluation is pointless.

There is no proper science that can prove or disprove any psychotherapy. Don't just shoot past this point like it is meaningless.

Don't be impressed by the quantity of literature out there. The literature is an attempt to prove what cannot be proven. This attempt will continue on and on as long as scientisits continue to ignore the fundamental point:
it is impossible to prove what a person is feeling

Stop asking for evidence!!!!!!

Ask for information. Don't worry about whether the information follows the guidelines agreed upon by a bunch of scientists. Scientists are always disagreeing amongst them selves about the correct methods for evaluation. Just focus on what the information is saying. Use your natural intelligence.


Moochie, it is a shame that you were unsuccessful with your therapy. I hope to be more successful....maybe I won't be.
 
I have some doubts about PT myself, although I am a believer(since1988ish), praise the lord! :D

but when people say things like



is this not a claim? Should this not be backed up by the sort of evidence that people are asking Janov to provide?


The way people talk about Primal Therapy, in terms of success or failure, one would think that the "human condition" was a simple matter like dentistry and rotten teeth-hey perhaps dentistry is a way to deprive people of their money, through suppression of chemicals that people could just swill their mouth with a few times a day to wash away all the tooth decaying crap......perhaps lots of things are a way to deprive people of their money....but perhaps, just one in ten people actually DO receive some sort of cure from primal therapy.... would that be any kind of success rate? well it would for that one person.


This is a good example of independant thinking.....but not 'scientific' thinking. This does not mean that DuckTape's point should be ignored.

In the scientific community, DuckTape's style of discussion would usually be ignored because it does not follow a path that leads to the possibility of evidence.
 

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