Is Primal Therapy woo?

[Onion]

I think Janov was hoping Lennon would prove as durable a marketing angle is Cruise has become for $cientology. Alas, it didn't work. Lennon looked at it, and subsequently dropped it.

There's no evidence I know of that Lennon bought any of it, except, perhaps, as fodder for his art.


M.

Lennon did not drop it. He went to his parents place to abuse them for all the pain they had caused. This is a common desire amongst primal patients as they start to feel their pain and start to see where it came from.
Janov advised Lennon that he was "Asking for trouble" and going back to his parents while he was feeling his pain, was not going to help.
Primal patients do not always follow the advice they are given, especially as they start to feel more.
Lennon was killed before he had a chance to continue with the therapy. His wife continued with primal therapy and has a very positive opinion of it.

 

[Moochie]

<snip>

Moochie, it is a shame that you were unsuccessful with your therapy. I hope to be more successful....maybe I won't be.

I haven't said it it was unsuccessful. As with most things in life, I did learn something.

How one perceives something like PT has much to do with expectations, and if one forms a picture of PT based solely on reading Janov's books, and fails to take into account dissenting views, one may be headed for disappointment, or often much worse.

The opening post in this thread asked if Primal Therapy is woo. Based on everything I have seen and experienced, I would have to say that yes, it is, indeed, woo.

You will no doubt find out for yourself.

Good luck.


M.

 

[Moochie]

Lennon did not drop it. He went to his parents place to abuse them for all the pain they had caused. This is a common desire amongst primal patients as they start to feel their pain and start to see where it came from.
Janov advised Lennon that he was "Asking for trouble" and going back to his parents while he was feeling his pain, was not going to help.
Primal patients do not always follow the advice they are given, especially as they start to feel more.
Lennon was killed before he had a chance to continue with the therapy. His wife continued with primal therapy and has a very positive opinion of it.

Well, I don't know where you got that information, but it's not what I've read about that time in Lennon's life.


M.

 

[Andrew4589]

Hello again people:

Just reviewed some of the comments, and would like to point out where I think some 'misinterpretations' have been. I, like "Onion", agree that mental health as a stand-alone reality cannot be measured and defined.
(But we can see, as human beings, when someone is a bit nutty, in the same way that we can see whether or not someone is genuinely happy, without any kind of scientific clinical measure - but, though a valid perception in itself, that's a human interpretation not reducable to data.). However, I agree that you can certainly measure physical parameters - of course.

The idea that the relationship between mental health (again, as a stand-alone reality) has a dynamic relationship between physiological conditions (psychosomatic disorders) does not seem an unreasonable assertion to me (and please don't tell me to give evidence - I'm just saying it's not unreasonable). Curing a specific physiological condition does not [necessarily] mean you're curing whatever it was that created the symptom in the first place. You can know that you have cured a mental sickness (from the reduction or removal of a physical symptom) when you can know that you have removed the mental basis of which created the physical symptom. (And if the physical problem is not coming from a mental basis, then what we're talking about is not mental sickness, but only physical sickness).

 

[DuckTapeFileMan]

Talking about subjective experience; what about anaesthetic? Is there any real proof that it works?
what if your dentist said "there is no real proof that anaesthetics really work, other than a few chemical difference in the body, therefore, I'm not going to use it on you, and save some money; now are you ready for your root canal?"?

 

[Onion]

The use of local anaesthetic is not complex like the practice of psychotherapy. The mouth goes numb, and the patient feels no pain. There is nothing complex about this, so the general public does not demand evidence (proof of numbness).

The more complex something becomes, the more easily it becomes misunderstood.

 

[Onion]

Moochie, are you female? Or are you male and a cat lover?

 

[Dancing David]

Hello again people:

Just reviewed some of the comments, and would like to point out where I think some 'misinterpretations' have been. I, like "Onion", agree that mental health as a stand-alone reality cannot be measured and defined.

Only if one is not aware of the defintions and possible metrics used to measure symptoms and functioning. Now that does not mean that it is at the level of element analysis by a mass spectromter, but it is more than alchemy.

Primal therapy may appear to have some relief for some participants. i say it is woo, as is most 'therapy' that does not have research statistics to back it.

(But we can see, as human beings, when someone is a bit nutty, in the same way that we can see whether or not someone is genuinely happy, without any kind of scientific clinical measure - but, though a valid perception in itself, that's a human interpretation not reducable to data.). However, I agree that you can certainly measure physical parameters - of course.

that depends upon what you mean by 'scientific clinical measure' , I could make very accurate assesments of symptomology and the roel of current life stress in symptom presentation. that however does not determine the course of treatment, however my assesments had a high relationship to the preliminary diagnosis given by the doctor.

Success in treatmen usually takes some fine tuning and is often determined by response to treatment.

In crisis presentation and hospitalization, the history is usualy lacking in the degree needed to make accutae diagnosis on the first run.

The idea that the relationship between mental health (again, as a stand-alone reality) has a dynamic relationship between physiological conditions (psychosomatic disorders) does not seem an unreasonable assertion to me (and please don't tell me to give evidence - I'm just saying it's not unreasonable). Curing a specific physiological condition does not [necessarily] mean you're curing whatever it was that created the symptom in the first place.

Quite true, some people have a higher biological predisposition that others, stress, contingent conditioning and substance abuse jhave a huge impact as well. About 50-75% of crisis presentation involves substance abuse.

You can know that you have cured a mental sickness (from the reduction or removal of a physical symptom) when you can know that you have removed the mental basis of which created the physical symptom. (And if the physical problem is not coming from a mental basis, then what we're talking about is not mental sickness, but only physical sickness).

Um sorry , all mental illness is physical unless you are a dualist, the mental world is the physical world of a body.

 

[Dancing David]

The use of local anaesthetic is not complex like the practice of psychotherapy. The mouth goes numb, and the patient feels no pain. There is nothing complex about this, so the general public does not demand evidence (proof of numbness).

The more complex something becomes, the more easily it becomes misunderstood.

Most 'therapy' is hookum of the first order. Some have a research basis and are grounded in functional analysis of behaviors. The rest are ooga-booga pixie in the sky type stuff.

Real treatments are :
-CBT: cognitive behavioral
-RET: Ellison's version of CBT
- Dialectic based treatment and Pearson's model of borderline treatment
- Boston model of psychosocial rehabilitation
- relapse prevention/harm reduction and life skills models that are based upon CBT

 

[Dancing David]

I am not Andrew4589.

Try to understand the point that Andrew and I have been trying to illustrate. If you need to read books to learn how to be accurate and scientific with your thought processes, then you are unable to realise that critical thinking cannot be taught.

I disagree.

The methods you have learned can easily lead you to the wrong conclusion if you are lost in a sea of scientific method, rather than using your natural intelligence.
Scientists often struggle to see the forest for the trees because they are often simplifying information to make it fit into a simple mathematical formula.

We live in a world that worships the sciences, so 'psychological scientists' get more credit and freedom than they deserve.

Want to talk about reality?

care to take this over to Science with Mercutio and Jeff Corey.

Psychology is a science.

Most scientists dealing with astronomy, believe that they know the size of the universe, and how it began.

Shows you don't read much astronomy either.

Their methodical thinking has led them to a confident conclusion, despite the fact that they have left out some very basic variables which prove their theories to be nothing more than hypothetical.

Oh really?

care to tell me what?

These conclusive scientists feel secure in their group, and often refer to the 'outsiders' as weirdos and crazy and rediculous etc. A few years later the outsiders prove that the 'insiders' methods are flawed, and so the science changes, and so on.

Forensic science all around the world has been woefully unscientific for over 30 years, and many convicted people have recently been proven to be innocent. Forensic methods are now changing rapidly.

But wait....shrinks are smarter than that....right??? You be the judge.

If you actually think about this point:
it is impossible to prove what a person is feeling
then you might realise that your argument for proper scientific evaluation is pointless.

Nope you have built a straw man and burnt it.

There is no proper science that can prove or disprove any psychotherapy. Don't just shoot past this point like it is meaningless.

Why you just made up a bunch of stuff.

Don't be impressed by the quantity of literature out there. The literature is an attempt to prove what cannot be proven. This attempt will continue on and on as long as scientisits continue to ignore the fundamental point:
it is impossible to prove what a person is feeling

Stop asking for evidence!!!!!!

Ask for information. Don't worry about whether the information follows the guidelines agreed upon by a bunch of scientists. Scientists are always disagreeing amongst them selves about the correct methods for evaluation. Just focus on what the information is saying. Use your natural intelligence.


Moochie, it is a shame that you were unsuccessful with your therapy. I hope to be more successful....maybe I won't be.

Sorry, one can judge behaviors and response to the enviroment, you do not need to measure anything other than behaviors.

Some may feel that there is benefit to PT, that does not mean that there is.

 

[applecorped]

Lennon did not drop it. He went to his parents place to abuse them for all the pain they had caused. This is a common desire amongst primal patients as they start to feel their pain and start to see where it came from.
Janov advised Lennon that he was "Asking for trouble" and going back to his parents while he was feeling his pain, was not going to help.
Primal patients do not always follow the advice they are given, especially as they start to feel more.
Lennon was killed before he had a chance to continue with the therapy. His wife continued with primal therapy and has a very positive opinion of it.

Lennon's mother was dead when started PT. He had very few contacts with his father, Alfred, who died in 1976.

" By 1976, Alfred had contracted terminal stomach cancer. Pauline contacted Lennon via Apple to make sure that he knew that his father was dying. Lennon sent a large bouquet of flowers to the hospital and phoned Alf on his deathbed, apologising for his [John's] past behaviour. When Alf died, Lennon offered to pay for the funeral, but Pauline refused, and paid for the arrangements herself."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Lennon

"Lennon ended his therapy sessions before completing a full course of therapy. Lennon did not recommend primal therapy after that time."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primal_therapy#John_Lennon_as_patient

"Our pain is the pain we go through all the time. You're born in pain, and pain is what we're in most of the time. And I think that the bigger the pain, the more gods we need."
John Lennon 1970

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Lots of people come here and assert that they have had such and such an experience, be it clairvoyance, seeing flying saucers (but not teapots!), or whatnot...

Then they're not listening to enough Gong!

To continue the musical theme and to link back into the subject of this thread seamlessly...

Tears For Fears' first album 'The Hurting' was a concept album based on Primal Scream Therapy - including the hit single 'Shout' as in 'Shout, shout, let it all out'. Both members were well into it. Good album, load of rubbish therapy.

There you are, I can cover the seventies and eighties me!

 

[DuckTapeFileMan]

I am controlling Dancing Dave with an Skeptoscope, invented by the late Professor Widget; I wonder if he can prove otherwise..


and this is the devise that I assessed him for the possession Skeptotherapy(TM), it's a full psychoanalyses machine that creates a complete psychological profile.
Apparently he is only 34.89%-skeptic.

 

[Dancing David]

I am controlling Dancing Dave with an Skeptoscope, invented by the late Professor Widget; I wonder if he can prove otherwise..


and this is the devise that I assessed him for the possession Skeptotherapy(TM), it's a full psychoanalyses machine that creates a complete psychological profile.
Apparently he is only 34.89%-skeptic.
[qimg]http://www.celebitchy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/middle-300px-scientology_e_meter_blue.jpg[/qimg]

The burden is on you to demonstrate it's effect , duh?

Apparently your ability to address my statements criticaly is 0% or ability to understand how to discuss things is -10%.

I notice you can post pictures, can you make a cogent critique of my posts or is your comprehension 5%? Maybe you should wet down the paper bag you find yourself in.

Try cognitive behavioral therapy, there is a wealth of data and information on it, surely even you can use wikipedia?

 

[Dancing David]

false memories?

What about lack of memories?

how can that be explained from the conventional point of view?

What kind of memories are you asking about , eh?

I think there is a hippocampus somewhere.

 

[Dancing David]

The notion of going into painful memories from the past, by unlocking the unconscious mind, and accepting the need to abandon one's defences is a frightnening thought for many...especially as one gets closer to actually doing it.

Because it is stupid and often damaging, desentizization is much more effective.

Sell much snake oil?

It is perfectly understandable that one would have reserved feelings about the integrity of such 'extreme' regressive therapies like Primal Therapy. When regressive psychotherapy is practiced incorrectly, the result can be severe abreactions and even psychosis. One has every right to be sceptical.

Apparently you do know PT is stupid, but not what psychosis is. that is funny!

However, it is important to understand one thing about any therapy. The ultimate decision to let go and just do it, comes down to a raw trust between the patient and the therapist. Indeed, there is no science that can prove that any particular therapist is safe. It's a decision that the patient must make after very careful consideration.

i see you can't demonstrate it is effective so you move the goal posts, how about a baseline of symptoms before and after treatment?

In other words, you really have to trust yourself. If you feel that the therapist or therapy is not helping you, or able to help you, then you have to trust in your own personal feelings.

For many of us this is too difficult to do, because our ability to trust ourselves has been diminished by our defences. Our defences protect us by keeping us blind to the things that we can't cope with. Our defences can also keep us blind to the things that can help us.

What a load of neofreudian psychotwaddle.

Rather than going into an endless debate about whether Primal Therapy is good or bad, it would be better to learn as much as you can about the therapy and the Primal Therapy patients.

It's important for me to point out that many regressive psychotherapists like to call their therapy 'Primal Therapy' but actually use their own techniques which are not derived from Dr. Arthur Janov's therapy. Dr. Janov claims to have treated patients who had suffered even more psychological damage through the practice of 'pseudo-primal therapy'. A neurotic therapist will mistakenly interpret the needs or behaviour of his/her patient. This can be very dangerous.

can't even use the right jargon, neurosis is very outdated.

All of this boils down to a conclusion that many of us share. "No thanks...I'd rather just have a safe chat". Just talking about stuff does not cause the repressed memories to emerge into consciousness, where they can be resolved. The talking must lead to feeling. When the patient is feeling, the information coming into consciousness is flowing in a natural, undefended way. The memory becomes clear and very detailed, and accurate. The patient experiences a feeling of 'knowing' (about what happened in the past, and how it has been affecting his/her behaviour). This feeling of 'knowing' does not occur during an abreaction (this is when the patient fights hard against the feeling, and this reaction is often misdiagnosed as feeling).

Nor does this feeling of 'knowing' occur during a psychotic episode. Psychosis is the invention of new, completely unreal 'beliefs' but a delusional belief never has the obvious sensation of a real belief.

Believe me?? You shouldn't.....you need to believe in yourself.

Well, does your ignorance know any bounds?

 

[Dancing David]

I have no desire to provide the evidence to back up every sentence. If you require evidence, then you will need to look further.

Uh huh, you haven't got it so you move goal posts.

I have looked at all sorts of so-called evidence, regarding 'mainstream' therapies, and primal therapy. I have also looked at my own personal experiences and compared them to the information provided in books written by many different authors. In my opinion, Dr. Arthur Janov's explanations and observations seem much more credible than others.

I'm not asking you to believe me. I am just stating my opinion.

lacking evidence you ignore reality, that must be convinient.

What a crock of ignorance!

 

[Dancing David]

Electroconvulsive therapists readily admit that they know very little about what the electricity is doing to the brain. The therapy is designed to 'force' the patient to exhibit behaviour that is more suitable for integration with society.

Uh huh and where is that data?

it is only used in the US to treat unresponsive depression, are you in a time warp or just ignorant?

 

[Dancing David]

No wonder Onion decries science, PT is bullpoop!

How come PubMed shows only very old and antiquated papers on Primal therapy? No replication, huh? A total of 12 and the most recent is 1983?

While electroconvulsive treatment gives 20 from 2008 out of 9701

 

[DuckTapeFileMan]

What kind of memories are you asking about , eh?

I think there is a hippocampus somewhere.

there are vast swathes of most people's childhoods that people can't remember, not because anything particularly bad happened in them, but because those times contained, from the child's perspective, painful feelings.

and by painful feelings I just mean depression type feelings.

The Janov theory would say that most people are burdened by repressed feelings and memories, where as the child that they bring into the world is not; but is subject to the repression process which is going on in the parent-this leads to them being sad, lonely, anxious etc, and those memories and feelings are themselves eventually repressed, and so the process goes on.