Ah another example of how corrupt Vladimir Putin is. Putin is trying to make Georgia into another Chechnya. Just look at what happend to a Kremlin critic named Magomed Yevloyev. Russia is supporting a dictator in Chechnya called Ramzan Kadyrov? Americans don"t care what happens in Chechnya? Why? Also even Russia has said that chechen leader is used to support named Sulim Yamadayev is a war criminal. Magomed Yevloyev is another Anna Politkovskaya who was trying to tell the truth about Chechnya and the Russian apartment bombings. Why is Vladimir Putin protecting people like Andrei Lugovoi. Andrei Lugovoi is wanted by British police on suspicion of the murder of Alexander Litvinenko. Oh yeah and then there is general Alexander Baranov who is a war criminal in Chechnya but a hero in Russia.
Russia invades Georgia
- Thread starter andyandy
- Start date
Matteo Martini
Banned
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2004
- Messages
- 4,561
Do you want to say,that Putin/Medvedev did not copied/improved Hitler plan???
Hell,this is perfect example of modern false-flag operation(correct term?).And invoking "godwining thread" is invalid as it is correct comparsion and future is unfortunately going to show truth(Putin's plan).
Very few people here trusts Russians and we regard what they say as propaganda and definitely would back Georgians.
Last words:Nobody should trust Putin,except that "Russina empire" might be around corner...
Klimax
You are forgetting to say that the Bush administration (and Clinton`s) behaved more or less in the same way, moving their area of influence from East Germany, to Czech, Hungary, and now Georgia and Ukraine..
You forgot to mention Poland and the Baltic states.
I find it remarkable that the US sphere of influence includes East Germany. I thought that was part of the BRD now. And evidently, to you, the US sphere of influence includes the entire European Union.
Who'd'a thunk it? All those Europeans, kowtowing and sucking up to the presidents of the US. Remarkable.
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
From perspective of those,who were at best under Russian influence,both plans are same.Hitler tried to use germans here and same goes for Putin and Gerogia,so it is same.Hitler was obviously first,so he made mistake of not issuing passports,so I see Putin's plan as improved version of copy.
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Somewhow I do not see that in German,France,Spain;somewhat less in CR,Poland,Hungary,GB,...
Influence from USA is far more subtle and not threating then it was from SSSR.(See 1968)And in some way we paid back to world (tunneling was perfected here
)And so far I did not see any threats by USA to contries which disagreeded with USA,like Germany,France.Only threats to those helping terrorists,which is somewhat expectable...
Wire
Scholar
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2002
- Messages
- 81
A quick note - this is not just a readjustment of borders to align with ethnicities, it's an thoroughly pre-planned expansion together with ethnic cleansing (quite a number of Georgians has been driven out from both areas since 1991). If the South-Ossetia and Abkhazia experiment is successful, ther is no 'rational' reason for Russia not to try it again. And indeed Medvedev's recent 'spheres of intrest' statement can easily be interpreted as confirmation of their will to create further trouble.
A bully always finds a reason no matter how much you try to please him (we found it out the hard way in 1939-40).
It's always possible that this is something of a trial run. That is, there will be border readjustments in Latvia and Estonia and Lithuania, bringing in strategic areas -- regrettably the Russian populations are largely urban. Hard to see what they can do about Ukraine, though. I read an article this AM in the Polish press which referred to Putin's saying at a European meeting that Ukraine's independence was "temporary and transitory." Haven't tried to track that down, though.
But don't worry. Putin has plenty of apologists 'round here. They all join in blaming the US.
ETA: Found it in Rzeczpospolita, a major Warsaw paper, today -- which may be yesterday in Poland. "Już to, co prezydent Putin powiedział na szczycie NATO w Bukareszcie w kwietniu, że Ukraina to państwo sztuczne i przejściowe, uruchomiło w ekipie Platformy Obywatelskiej dzwonek alarmowy." That is, at a Nato summit in Bucharest in April, "Ukraine is an artificial and transitional state." Said by a Polish diplomatic official Bartosz Cichocki.
Last edited:
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
They both used the same pretext (defence of their nationals or clients), but a pretext is not a plan. As I pointed out it's a pretext that's been used by the Romans and many others since, in pursuit of their various plans.
Passports are neither here nor there; plans are ranked by how they work out.
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
Where do you suggest Russia might "try it again"? And to what end?
If the Russians were planning any further move it would presumably be into the Crimea. But there's no audible call for Russian intervention coming from there; if the Russians intended to move in they'd be orchestrating one.
Characterising nations as "bullies" simply obscures the reality. Russia has gained what it wanted from the March Through Georgia. All the rest is sound and fury, signifying nothing.
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
Said by Cichocki, or reported as being said by Putin?
Ukraine is unarguably an artificial state. It was a Soviet Socialist Republic, its borders crafted and recrafted by the the State for its own purposes.
Artificial states do tend to be transitional. Belgium's just about hanging in there, but it's getting tense. The Czechs and Slovaks parted company in a very civilised manner. Yugoslavia, gone. Moldova, gone.
It's just a matter of time for Ukraine. Could be a long time, might not be. Could be messy, could be civilised. But there's no compelling reason for Ukraine to remain exactly as it is right now. It could make itself more cohesive, and thus less artificial, by giving up territory.
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
No; in that case they would have driven to Tblisi, as Saaskatchvili kept bleating that they would. Have you seen what happened to Grozny? It was terrible.
The Russians are a brutal bunch. It goes back a long way.
Because the Chechens are Muslims and have a history with Al Qaeda and the like. It goes back to Bosnia; Chechnya was the route for Saudi influence. Lots of Chechens fought in Bosnia and Afghanistan.
The US was all in favour of Putin stepping on the Chechens. Apart from the Islamist nutters in the hills it was a gangster-state. Look it up.
There's never been much to like about Russian society.
Cichocki reporting Putin. It'll be interesting to check and I think I will.
Wait a minute -- Moldova, gone? No, sorry, look again. It's not much but it's there.
Many Ukrainians would disagree with your analysis as to the "artificial and transitory" nature of the state. But the fact is that the Russian empire, including its Soviet manifestation, always coveted and then included Ukraine. (Outside of periods with rule by Austria or Poland of significant western areas.)
The trouble with Realpolitik sorts of analyses by outsiders -- I'm thinking of Henry Kissinger -- is that there is no single Realpolitik. Or, my cynical view may be quite different from your cynical view. Do you think that the UK is an artificial and transitional construct? Act of Union was 1707. Belgian kingdom ... I should look it up but am lazy -- was an outcome of the Congress of Vienna, thus post 1815. There are people in these forums who seem already to be planning for an independent Scotland.
Ca.1830-1865, smart money would have bet that the US wouldn't survive as a unified state. It did, thanks to 620,000 military deaths and 4 years of war. Will Putin move the Russian military into Kharkiv or Kyiv (I use Ukrainian spellings intentionally)? And if he does, what will the outcome be?
Last edited:
Here is a link to RIA Novosti (in English), Russian News Agency. I could continue searching but sources seem to say these statements by Putin (to which I refer above) took place in closed door sessions; so everything is quoted, or better paraphrased. http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080415/105143374.html
Article focuses on foreign min Lavrov reassuring Ukraine and Nato. And if you look at related articles at the bottom of the page, there is a lot of diplomatic assuring and the like.
Frankly, as I said above, control of Ukraine has historically been a life-and-death matter for Russian state power. This is the longest stretch, now, in which a Russian state has not controlled most of Ukraine since, I guess, Peter the Great, and the start of the 18th c. Without Ukraine, Russia is a big country, blocked from Europe; with Ukraine, it is an empire, bordering and partly inside Europe.
Does that mean they will march into Ukraine? Or just try to dominate? It is not a casual decision. Georgia is nothing in comparison, neither to western states nor to Russia itself.
Article focuses on foreign min Lavrov reassuring Ukraine and Nato. And if you look at related articles at the bottom of the page, there is a lot of diplomatic assuring and the like.
Frankly, as I said above, control of Ukraine has historically been a life-and-death matter for Russian state power. This is the longest stretch, now, in which a Russian state has not controlled most of Ukraine since, I guess, Peter the Great, and the start of the 18th c. Without Ukraine, Russia is a big country, blocked from Europe; with Ukraine, it is an empire, bordering and partly inside Europe.
Does that mean they will march into Ukraine? Or just try to dominate? It is not a casual decision. Georgia is nothing in comparison, neither to western states nor to Russia itself.
DanishDynamite
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2001
- Messages
- 10,752
Boneheads here have asked whether the EU is ready to challenge Russia. No bonehead here has asked whether the EU "SHOULD" challenge Russia.
Policenaut
Infidel Defiler
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2007
- Messages
- 2,191
Should from what perspective? Should for defending what they think is right and just? Or should not for defending their economic interests? Or should or should not for some other reason? I think each EU country has a different reason for leaning one way or the other. It just shows the inability for them to have any meaningful sway with Russia. We're going to suspend talks until you move troops out. SERIOUSLY! WE'RE PUTTING OUR FOOT DOWN! THIS TIME IT'S FOR REAL GUYS!
DanishDynamite
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2001
- Messages
- 10,752
Let me explain, my dear bonehead.
Why did the West not try to get Russia to join Nato?
What are NATO forces doing in Afghanistan?
What is the purpose of NATO?
The West wants Russia as a harmonios partner. Russia has incredible oil and gas ressources.
Russia has a pride which is currently being tested, especially by the USA. With their idiotic "missile shield" and their haste to include former parts of the Soviet Union as members in NATO.
The US, i.e. Bush, are pure idiots.
Have been for 8 years now.
No longer.
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
Putin may well have said it. He's an educated chap, and it's just an educated observation.
Where? And why?
See what I mean about artificial? Where's the historic Ukraine? (Before you answer, take note that "Ukraine" means "New Territories", and so has had a constantly shifting nature).
These Ukrainains you speak of : what makes them define themselves as Ukrainians?
It was the absence of Realpolitik that brought on the Great War, and screwed up the aftermath. There was no general war in Europe in Bismarck's time, and there was no global war in Kissinger's time. Realpolitic works.
Take a poll in Scotland. But of course it's not artificial; look at a geogrphical map. Then look at a geogrpahical map and work out where the Ukraine must be.
Artificial, and polarised. Belgium's only there to demilitarize the Lower Rhine (and look how tht's worked out when push comes to shove).
You get all sorts on the Politics Forum.
And the subject of States' Rights still hasn't been put to bed, has it?
If you mean Kiev, no.
DanishDynamite
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2001
- Messages
- 10,752
It is idiotic to act agressively against Russia. We don't want Russia as an enemy. We want them even more integrated in the world economy.
CapelDodger... Could you advise as to your skills with Slavic languages? I have professional-level reading skills in Russian, Polish, and Ukrainian. (Professional level = have been paid to translate. Worst experience ever was a summary of the ca.1993 published annual report by the chief of the Ukrainian tax service. I'll shoot myself before I do that again.)
"Ukraine" most definitely does not mean "New Territories," which would be "Novyi Krai" or something of the sort in all 3 languages (for example, in Polish Nowy Kraj, pronounced the same). Ukraina (to use the original) is derived from "at the border." (There is that root, "krai" following "u" which can mean "at.") English-language standard has been "the Ukraine" because of that, but people are moving away from it in the field. And that is neither here nor there.
Full disclosure of personal bias: I would prefer an independent Ukrainian state, not incorporated into the Russian Fed nor a satellite. I have studied extensively the horrors of the old Soviet Union and believe that it is too late to go back for Russia and Ukraine. I gather you regard yourself as a Realpolitiker and believe that Russian hegemony in that region is preferred, or inevitable.
Seriously, check your Slavic-language sources. As for Moldova, it's still a state. I didn't speak as to its viability. Don't muddle is and should.
"Ukraine" most definitely does not mean "New Territories," which would be "Novyi Krai" or something of the sort in all 3 languages (for example, in Polish Nowy Kraj, pronounced the same). Ukraina (to use the original) is derived from "at the border." (There is that root, "krai" following "u" which can mean "at.") English-language standard has been "the Ukraine" because of that, but people are moving away from it in the field. And that is neither here nor there.
Full disclosure of personal bias: I would prefer an independent Ukrainian state, not incorporated into the Russian Fed nor a satellite. I have studied extensively the horrors of the old Soviet Union and believe that it is too late to go back for Russia and Ukraine. I gather you regard yourself as a Realpolitiker and believe that Russian hegemony in that region is preferred, or inevitable.
Seriously, check your Slavic-language sources. As for Moldova, it's still a state. I didn't speak as to its viability. Don't muddle is and should.
Last edited:
Childlike Empress
Banned
We have a nice little media scandal in Germany right now. The ARD ("the first" German TV station) aired an interview with Putin last Friday. The broadcast was around 9 minutes long, and they pretended that it was the complete interview. Unfortunately several russian TV stations broadcasted it also, and their versions were between 20 and 40 minutes long. Bloggers translated the russian broadcast back into german and somehow it spread like wildfire that the ARD cut out everything that was contradictory to "the western" position. Putin repeated what he told CNN about american involvement and in general, as usual, was quite on top of the discussion.
After many hundred people contacted the ARD and complained about the "censorship", ARD today issued an apology and will broadcast the complete interview tommorrow morning at 6.20 AM on one of its local stations.
That's the good thing about this affair, a lot of people start smelling the propaganda (and the german TV is harmless compared to the Murikan and British media).
Here are more details (in german).
My favorite Putin quote there: "If we have the choice between sausages and life, we choose life."
After many hundred people contacted the ARD and complained about the "censorship", ARD today issued an apology and will broadcast the complete interview tommorrow morning at 6.20 AM on one of its local stations.
That's the good thing about this affair, a lot of people start smelling the propaganda (and the german TV is harmless compared to the Murikan and British media).
Here are more details (in german).
My favorite Putin quote there: "If we have the choice between sausages and life, we choose life."
Last edited: