The FBI Has No Record of Any Evidence of the 4 Flights Used on 9/11

LashL said:
I've been reading quite a number of documents. Please advise the one in particular to which you are referring. Thanks.
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Exhibit E of the August 22 Monaghan doc. It's a letter dated 7/18/08.
 
RedIbis said:
Exhibit E of the August 22 Monaghan doc. It's a letter dated 7/18/08.
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Thanks. That explains why I could not readily identify it as a statement by the FBI - it wasn't. Returning to your prior assertion:

RedIbis said:
These documents state quite clearly that the FBI "doesn't have any recordsregarding the above requested information."
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Um, no, the document to which you are referring was written by the NTSB, not the FBI, and says, "Unfortunately, the NTSB doesn't have any records regarding the above requested information." It does not mention the FBI at all.


RedIbis said:
That request was for "records revealing the process by which wreckage recovered from the aircraft used during the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, was positively identifiedas belonging to" the four flights.
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Yes, but that is an exchange between Monaghan and the NTSB, not the FBI.

RedIbis said:
I can just imagine what legal rhetoric you'll spew to try and work around this particularly blunt statement.
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Now, now, there's no need to be snarky. But you could try reading more carefully in order to avoid mis-attributing quotes such as you did above.
 
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PhantomWolf said:
Buuuzt, INCORRECT, but thank you for playing. American Airlines was Bankrupted in 2003 after the US Govt refused to deal with a rescue package. United Airlines was also refused Govt help and had to beg their shareholders to come up with the money required to prevent bankrupcy.
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So what does that mean? They didn't have their hands out as an industry for a bailout the day after 9/11? All the airlines got bailout money after 9/11 whether they needed it or not. Some of them still failed so what? Many of them were failing before 9/11 even happened.

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed050503.cfm

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...3A25753C1A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24684

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9900E2D61F30F934A25755C0A9629C8B63

Have we derailed this enough so that all of you may keep avoiding to answer RedIbis? Give it up already.
 
Red is getting plenty of answers, the dodging is you refusing to comfirm if you believe the Airlines lied when they identified the planes. Why is that?
 
RedIbis said:
These documents state quite clearly that the FBI "doesn't have any records regarding the above requested information."
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Nice try, Red. But we're so accustomed to this tactic that the first thing a good lawyer will do (and did) is note the careful placement of the quotation marks just after the word FBI. Why would that be? Is it possible that the quoted part is from someone else?

Gasp! No... say it ain't so. You actually quoted a comment from the NTSB and attributed it to the FBI? But you're so staunch and upright and honest in your approach to things. Surely this is just an error, and now you'll apologize and mend your ways.
 
LashL said:
Thanks. That explains why I could not readily identify it as a statement by the FBI - it wasn't. Returning to your prior assertion:



Um, no, the document to which you are referring was written by the NTSB, not the FBI, and says, "Unfortunately, the NTSB doesn't have any records regarding the above requested information." It does not mention the FBI at all.




Yes, but that is an exchange between Monaghan and the NTSB, not the FBI.



Now, now, there's no need to be snarky. But you could try reading more carefully in order to avoid mis-attributing quotes such as you did above.
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True. It's a bit confusing because right under Exhibit E it says FBI because they're the defendant. As you said, the letter is from the NTSB, not the FBI.

So we can add another gov't agency that has kept no records of the investigation. Some here will accept that the identities of the flights were never in doubt, so no need to identify. I don't accept that.

I will say that I learn from these exchanges and will drop any snarkiness or general hostility if you do the same. This isn't a competition. I make mistakes. This is a long and complex learning process.
 
RedIbis said:
I will say that I learn from these exchanges and will drop any snarkiness or general hostility if you do the same. This isn't a competition. I make mistakes. This is a long and complex learning process.
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Cool, good sentiments. I hope then you will not take it amiss if I ask a question that for me cuts to the chase: Do you think there's any reasonable possiblility at all that the four planes that crashed on 9/11 were misidentified? If not, what is this thread all about?
 
Stellafane said:
Cool, good sentiments. I hope then you will not take it amiss if I ask a question that for me cuts to the chase: Do you think there's any reasonable possiblility at all that the four planes that crashed on 9/11 were misidentified? If not, what is this thread all about?
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Yes, I think it's possible that at least two were misidentified (77 and 93). I think it's counterskeptical to accept that since their IDs were never in question it wasn't necessary to keep records that document the investigation.

This thread is about requesting records of an investigation, records which apparently don't exist.

Think of all the unknowns on that day: the amount of hijacked airliners, how the planes were hijacked, why the military wasn't able to intercept, etc etc. So why should it be taken as a foregone conclusion what the identities of these planes were.

We have an empty hole and no serial numbers and no one is supposed to question the investigation records?
 
RedIbis said:
As you said, the letter is from the NTSB, not the FBI.

So we can add another gov't agency that has kept no records of the investigation.
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Brilliant spin there, Red. You've misattributed a quote to claim the FBI has no records. When you get caught out, you try to pretend that your claim hasn't been refuted while at the same time claiming that it also applies to the NTSB. Did you really think nobody would notice that?

Dave
 
OK, passing over the false claim of an "empty hole..."

Why do you think that 77 and 93 may have been misidentified? Some particular fact, or possible fact, or just general disbelief?

And since you've added the phrase, "at least," you are implying that it's also possible that 11 and 175 were misidentified. I could mention the guy I knew on 175. His mother says he's still dead as a result of 9/11 -- granted, I haven't spoken with her since last fall (2007). But I know her (and knew him) through a rather small special interest group; we all know one another's business. I think I would have heard of his reappearance.
 
RedIbis said:
This thread is about requesting records of an investigation, records which apparently don't exist.
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Except that, if you read the actual requests, it isn't about that at all. The original FOIA requests, as Horatius pointed out, refer to "formally and positively identified debris" and to "wreckage recovered by defendant". They do not at any point ask the question, "How were the identities of flights AA11, UA175, AA77 and UA93 established and matched to the crash sites?" It's classic truther misdirection: determine what evidence is easily obtained and conclusive, select an alternative subset, then claim that the subset is the totality of the evidence.

How about issuing a FOIA request for the process by which the identities of the crashed flights were determined, without placing limits on the types of evidence you're prepared to consider? Or would that leave your position open to refutation?

Dave
 
RedIbis said:
Yes, I think it's possible that at least two were misidentified (77 and 93). I think it's counterskeptical to accept that since their IDs were never in question it wasn't necessary to keep records that document the investigation.
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Interesting. Personally, I don't think it's counterskeptical at all to accept that which is not in question. And I think most people would agree that there is a preponderance of evidence available that clearly identifies, beyond any reasonable doubt, which planes crashed.


This thread is about requesting records of an investigation, records which apparently don't exist.
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If the records you're talking about involve the process of identifying the planes, I'm really not seeing the point of this request -- unless you happen to believe, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, that the IDs of the crashed planes remain an open question.


Think of all the unknowns on that day: the amount of hijacked airliners, how the planes were hijacked, why the military wasn't able to intercept, etc etc. So why should it be taken as a foregone conclusion what the identities of these planes were.
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For a period of time, there were indeed a number of temporary unknowns that day. But in the subsequent days, weeks, months, and years, virtually all of those momentary questions have been very thoroughly answered to most people's satisfaction, including all three questions you mention. Just because there was some quite understandable initial confusion doesn't render all subsequent questions eternally open.


We have an empty hole and no serial numbers and no one is supposed to question the investigation records?
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We have vastly more than that -- in-flight testimony from passengers, eyewitnesses on the ground, DNA, clearly and unambiguously identifiable debris, and so on. Not to mention the thorny attendant problems, such as if it wasn't 77 and 93 that crashed, then what became of these flights?

Four planes were hijacked on 9/11. Passengers on those planes reported being hijacked. As best they could, some even reported their location, which were completely consistent with their eventual crash sites. The hijackers themselves announced they had hijacked these planes. Four planses crashed on 9/11. The debris recovered from the crash sites is 100% consistent with the hijacked planes. The DNA recovered matches the passengers that were on those planes. No trace of those planes or its passengers has ever been found in any other location. In all seriousness, if all this doesn't convince you, what more could you possibly ask for that would?
 
LashL said:
Um, no, the document to which you are referring was written by the NTSB, not the FBI, and says, "Unfortunately, the NTSB doesn't have any records regarding the above requested information." It does not mention the FBI at all.
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RedIbis caught in a lie, no surprise. Sometimes willful ignorance just isn't enough and in tough times, when your back's against the wall, you have to lie for The Truth™. Right RedIbis? :rolleyes:
 
WildCat said:
RedIbis caught in a lie, no surprise. Sometimes willful ignorance just isn't enough and in tough times, when your back's against the wall, you have to lie for The Truth™. Right RedIbis? :rolleyes:
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Man, the whole thread is a lie, from the title to every single one of Red's posts. I am beginning to think he is delusional at this point.

"Plaintiff's original FOIA request sought "documentation pertaining to any formally and positively identified debris" from the aircraft used in the September 11th attacks. In response to this request, RIDS personnel at FBIHQ understood that any potentially responsive records would have been compiled for law enforcement purposes and would be located in a pending file because of an ongoing law enforcement investigation. RIDS personnel therefore determined that any records would be withheld in their entirety pursuant to 5 U.S.C. § 552(b)(7)(A)."

"evidence collected after September 11, 2001 has corroborated the fact that American Airlines Flight 11, United Airlines Flight 175, American Airlines Flight 77 and United Flight 93 were the aircraft hijacked".

Until Red deals with the bolded sections above, this thread is a huge waste of time.
 
Yes, I think it's possible that at least two were misidentified (77 and 93).
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Do you think that staff at United Airlines and American Airlines were lying when they identified those as the planes that crashed at the Pentagon and Shanksville to the FAA within an hour of the crashes?
 
PhantomWolf said:
Do you think that staff at United Airlines and American Airlines were lying when they identified those as the planes that crashed at the Pentagon and Shanksville to the FAA within an hour of the crashes?
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Perhaps RedIbis believes the staff at United and American originally suspected The Truth, but later "changed their minds" the way he believes the firefighters at WTC7 did.
 
I have never seen somebody get knocked down so many times and still get up (Red).

:boggled:
 
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