Well there you go. You just made a 100% false claim. So it's no wonder you misunderstand the event. Sorry, but saying that the sound of an explosion has a high resonance frequency is absolutely FALSE.
Try not making crap up and maybe you wil have something intelligent to be countered. My God, you kids are amazing. You make this stuff up and then act surprised that people laugh at you and don't take you seriously.
And the exact purpose of such explosives has been defined? I don't mind occasionally playing devil's advocate here, let's say these were in fact explosives that were responsible. In the end what purpose would these explosives have played in the collapse of the towers?
Whoops, it looks like I forget to mention back in post #561 that Felipe David must have been standing just a few meters away from two elevator shafts leading directly up to the impact zone. So just a second after the impact sound traveling through the steel structure reached him, the direct sound of impact traveling down the air inside the elevator shafts would reach him to. Standing outside the elevator shafts it would sound as it came from the elevator doors like in this account from floor 53:
Kenton Beerman, 24, was also sending e-mail at work when an explosion rocked 1 World Trade Center, making it sway back and forth for 10 seconds.
At first, Beerman thought the building would fall into the Hudson River. Then he realized it had stopped moving and saw thousands of pieces of paper fluttering outside.
``We thought it was a bomb in the freight elevator,'' Beerman said, because the sound of the explosion seemed to have come from that direction.
He headed into a corridor with about 15 co-workers and made his way down the stairs from the 53rd floor. The lights were still on but the stairwell reeked of smoke and something that smelled like kerosene. Beerman and others had to step aside so people who had been burned could descend more rapidly _ and so firefighters could head up the stairs. http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/11_APwitnesses.html
My main point in post #561 was that the building shaking he would have felt through the floor easily could have led Felipe David to believe that the explosion occurred below him. Just like in this account from the south tower:
53rd floor
Jack Alvo: I felt the impact of the explosion that I believed was at my feet. I heard the crashing glass around me as the building rocked. My hands began to shake and my knees buckled. I knew I could not stay where I was and I had to go lower. I made my way to the stairs, passing people along the way. I saw the horror and the fear in several faces as I went by them. I still believed the impact was at my feet and as I descended past floor 50 and floor 40 I was sure I was going to see disaster. http://www.aish.com/societyWork/society/One_Mans_Escape.asp
This something even you should be able to understand on your own with a bit of critical thinking thewholesoule. Everywhere that we do not state every detail explicitly you attempt to shoehorn in some fantasy bombs.
Here is some useful homework for you thewholesoul. I suggest that you read every witness account assembled by Mark Roberts. Do note that people on all levels heard the impact. Especially note that what occurred in the basement is no different from what occurred higher up in the tower. Look at the overall picture instead of engaing in quote mining and misrepresentation of what happened inside the towers when they where hit by aircrafts.
Here is some useful homework for you thewholesoul. I suggest that you read every witness account assembled by Mark Roberts. Do note that people on all levels heard the impact. Especially note that what occurred in the basement is no different from what occurred higher up in the tower. Look at the overall picture instead of engaing in quote mining and misrepresentation of what happened inside the towers when they where hit by aircrafts.
Look, you have changed your explanation for the first basement explosion no less than three times. The reason I look for details is because I like to address and counter every single aspect of a persons argument. And like they say, the devil is in the details. But lets cut to the chase. A shockwave from the impact zone has only one possible route for reaching Felipe David’s ear drums. You argued that:
Now many things can sound like an explosion but in post #564 I argued that one thing that cannot sound like an explosion is a vibrating steel core column. A typical explosion emits a loud bang or boom noise, it has a high pitch sound resulting from high frequency wavelengths. A vibrating steel core column has a low resonance frequency due to its physical parameters therefore it will not sound anything like an explosion. Now instead of countering this objection – this particular detail in my argument - you simply reiterate the same claim in your latest post i.e. that a vibrating core column will sound like an explosion:
This admittedly is a more plausible explanation but again it is wrought with problems.
Shockwaves play a double function in your argument. Firstly they are responsible for explaining the sound of the explosion heard by Felipe David, and secondly they are responsible for explaining the reverberations i.e. floor shaking etc that were felt. You write:
Sound travels through structural steel with a speed of about 4500 m/s. The impact shock wave would reach B1 instantly. Felipe David would hear the impact sound transferred through the core columns. And he would feel the impact shock wave and the following vibrations through the floors below him would lead him to believe that explosion occured below him.
Given that we can safely rule out shockwaves passing through solid steel core columns as generating the sound of an explosion, that means the only possible way the sound of an explosion could reach the ear drums of Felipe David from the impact zone must have been down through the air within the elevator shaft itself. But sound travels through air a lot slower than it does through steel therefore the sound of the explosion travelling through the air would have reached Felipe David AFTER he felt the shockwave responsible for the reverberations. However this is NOT what actually happened. Felipe David in addition to every other person in the basement ALL claim that the explosion was HEARD FIRST and then the explosion was FELT.
For example Felipe David states
The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below
if indeed the explosion heard by Felipe David originated from the impact zone then the sound waves traveled down through the air in the elevator shaft and thus would be heard by Felipe David who was apparently standing beside the shaft as coming, like you say, from the elevator doors. The only trouble is Norseman those on B1 heard an explosion coming from BELOW them, NOT from the elevator shaft doors.
To repeat
The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below
it was so hard that I thought it was an electrical generator that just blew up on the sublevels, because the support of the building, the electrical pumps and generators, was located by the mechanical room on that floor
Those on B4 heard an explosion ABOVE them, NOT from the elevator shaft doors.
Philip Moreli was walking past the elevator shaft when he thrown to the floor by the impact of the explosion he did not think hear the sound coming down the elevator shaft, he states,
The impact of the explosion or whatever happened threw me to the floor...You didn't know what it was, you just assumed something fell over in the loading dock. Something very heavy, something very big.
Note the tranformers are located in the mechanical room.
In support of your claim that Felipe David would hear the explosion coming from the elevator doors you cite the testimony of ONE person on the 53th floor - Kenton Beerman (who was obviously drunk ) -
“We thought it [impact of flight 11 in North Tower] was a bomb in the freight elevator,'' Beerman said, “because the sound of the explosion seemed to have come from that direction.
The obvious explanation for this is that Kenton Beerman was located in the South Tower not the North Tower and presumably the elevator shaft was situated between him and the North Tower which is why he was given that impression.
In contrast I support my argument with 5 individuals (and there are many more) situated above and below the B2/3 floor where the explosion was actually heard coming from. I provide two individuals (Felipe David + Philip Moreli) beside the only elevator shaft and neither of them say the sound of the explosion came from this shaft. So your new and expanded shockwave explanation is not supported by any of the relevant testimony Norseman. But what is a little detail like that anyways?
To summarize:
•Sound waves/shockwaves travelling down the air in the elevator shaft would reach Felipe David AFTER he FELT the explosion. But Felipe David and EVERYONE else on the B1 level heard the sound of an explosion FIRST and then FELT reverberations.
•The elevator shafts were the only means sound/shockwaves could reach the ear drums of individuals in the basement but NOBODY in the basement heard the explosion coming from the elevator shaft doors.
•Your argument is not supported by ANY of the RELEVANT testimony in the basement.
•Vibrations passing through a solid, steel core column approximately 340m/s in length DO NOT sound like a high pitch explosion.
peace
p.s. i will get to you "main" point in post #561 when i get a chance
is a false statement. dont believe me? go read the testimony in Roberts paper.
in relation to the first basement explosion i have debunked
- the unignited jet fuel hypothesis
- the official fireball hypothesis
- the falling debris hypothesis
- and the shockwave hypothesis
now tell me Smith which one do you support and i will explain to you in very simple terms why it is not just improbable but impossible based on the facts we know and the relevant testimony.
You have not debunked anything! You think you have. If you debunked something, you would be famous for exposing something. But you have not earned a Pulitzer Prize, you have only exposed your lack of knowledge and shallow research. Take your "ample evidence", package it up and apply for the Pulitzer Prize. Prove me wrong.
Have you sent all this important work to the top news agencies? Good luck.
in relation to the first basement explosion which explanation is your favorite, is it:
(a) the official fireball hypothesis
(b) the unofficial unignited jet fuel hypothesis
(c) the unofficial falling debris hypothesis
(d) the unofficial shockwave hypothesis
if you picked one and actually entered a dialogue with myself, i will explain why it is impossible.
Now many things can sound like an explosion but in post #564 I argued that one thing that cannot sound like an explosion is a vibrating steel core column. A typical explosion emits a loud bang or boom noise, it has a high pitch sound resulting from high frequency wavelengths. A vibrating steel core column has a low resonance frequency due to its physical parameters therefore it will not sound anything like an explosion. Now instead of countering this objection – this particular detail in my argument - you simply reiterate the same claim in your latest post i.e. that a vibrating core column will sound like an explosion:
In that case thewholesoul don't you think it would have been smarter to see what Felipe describes in his original statement?
Felipe said:
“We heard a loud rumble, then all of a sudden we heard another rumble like someone moving a whole lot of
furniture," Rodriguez said. "And then the elevator opened and a man came into our office and all of his skin was off.”
It's a real concern as to Felipe's expanding version of events... his story is much different now than what he originally gave. The explosions in the basement is still rather baseless. I can appreciate your efforts to clarify the physical properties of steel with regards to how sounds travel through it but the testimony is entirely consistent with what's been said before. There is no mention of explosions, explosives, anything of the like.
What examples is he to provide? Sound travels through steel and does so 17 times faster than it travels through air. Felipe would have heard sounds before hearing the impact sound. I believe he made his point quite clear.
if indeed the explosion heard by Felipe David originated from the impact zone then the sound waves traveled down through the air in the elevator shaft and thus would be heard by Felipe David who was apparently standing beside the shaft as coming, like you say, from the elevator doors. The only trouble is Norseman those on B1 heard an explosion coming from BELOW them, NOT from the elevator shaft doors.
Sound as I am sure you should be aware is not the only thing travelling through the structure, as sound is vibration, the physical effects were there and would have felt as if it were below him at least at one point. Did you forget the numerous accounts of WTC occupants who reported feeling as if the impact was below them? It doesn't sound like it.
Let's look at his testimony in complete context shall we:
...He then came in. We then were talking about the day's work, and what needed to be done, when we heard a massive explosion that was in the World Trade Center at about 8:46 in the morning. (video is edited here)
Um, the explosion came from, I believe, we believe that it first came from the mechanical room. Then we heard a series of other, uh, explosions that sounded up on the above levels of the building, to where we then realized that there was something wrong, and there was a major problem.
The sound reverberating from the steel columns would have sounded as if it were coming from a different region in the building. It would be easy to understand his confusion as to the origin of the sound. And of course hyperboles do not equate to 'bombs'
it was so hard that I thought it was an electrical generator that just blew up on the sublevels, because the support of the building, the electrical pumps and generators, was located by the mechanical room on that floor
Do you honestly read the quotes you post? The principal point is the same for the last. Since the sound is transmitting through the steel framework it would make it seem that the origin of such sounds is different than the original...
Philip Moreli was walking past the elevator shaft when he thrown to the floor by the impact of the explosion he did not think hear the sound coming down the elevator shaft, he states,
Morelli was knocked off his feet as the entire building shook violently.
He as well heard the elevators descending down the shafts. He was also unaware of the plane impacts. Given that at the time one wouldn't immediately consider "OH!! A plane crashed into my building!" What might you inistially associate the movement with? It's clear from his testimony here:
"The impact of the explosion or whatever happened threw me to the floor...You didn't know what it was, you just assumed something fell over in the loading dock. Something very heavy, something very big."
It's clear he was not sure what it was, let alone if what he felt was actually an explosion, and even more so that it was associated with "bombs". Ignorance of context is no excuse for pandering weak evidence.
I'm not impressed by the arguments you've offered so far..
In support of your claim that Felipe David would hear the explosion coming from the elevator doors you cite the testimony of ONE person on the 53th floor - Kenton Beerman (who was obviously drunk ) -
“We thought it [impact of flight 11 in North Tower] was a bomb in the freight elevator,'' Beerman said, “because the sound of the explosion seemed to have come from that direction.
The obvious explanation for this is that Kenton Beerman was located in the South Tower not the North Tower and presumably the elevator shaft was situated between him and the North Tower which is why he was given that impression.
It is very obvious from the context of the quote that Kenton Beerman was in the North Tower = WTC 1. Here it is once again:
Kenton Beerman, 24, was also sending e-mail at work when an explosion rocked 1 World Trade Center, making it sway back and forth for 10 seconds.
At first, Beerman thought the building would fall into the Hudson River. Then he realized it had stopped moving and saw thousands of pieces of paper fluttering outside.
``We thought it was a bomb in the freight elevator,'' Beerman said, because the sound of the explosion seemed to have come from that direction.
He headed into a corridor with about 15 co-workers and made his way down the stairs from the 53rd floor. The lights were still on but the stairwell reeked of smoke and something that smelled like kerosene. Beerman and others had to step aside so people who had been burned could descend more rapidly _ and so firefighters could head up the stairs.
In case you should happen to still be in doubt thewholesoul, here is a different quote confirming that he was inside WTC 1:
Kenton Beerman, 25, was alone at the software company where he is a sales executive. He sat at his desk on the 53rd floor of 1 World Trade Center, the north tower, sending e-mails and checking scores: His Red Sox had fallen behind the Twins in the wild-card race. Hopeless, he thought.
• "i am ok and alive and not injured and evacuated from the world trade center," Kenton Beerman wrote in the subject line of an e-mail at 10:50 a.m. EDT on Sept. 11. Beerman was in Tower One of the World Trade Center on the morning of Sept. 11.
i am fine. i work in the world trade center (the one
that's still up) and was successfully evacuated along
with many other people by the time the south tower
collapsed.
love and talk soon, Kenton
Email Date:tuesday September 11, 2001, 10:23am EST
Email To:everyone I know
Email From:Kenton Beerman
Email Cc:
Email Subject:i am alive and not injured and ok and successfully evacuated from the world trade center
If still in doubt here is his story written by Kenton Beerman himself:
I was in my office
on the south side of the 53rd floor of WTC 1 (the
first tower to be hit and the second tower to
collapse) when the first plane hit. I was the only
one in my office when the plane hit around 8:50am -
many of my co-workers usually arrive around 9-9:15am,
thank God.
I was checking my e-mail when the first explosion hit
my building, although I was unsure whether it was my
building or the other tower at the time. There was
swaying for about ten seconds - during the first
couple of sways I was convinced we'd topple in the
Hudson River far below - and then I looked out the
window and saw documents and papers floating down from
the sky. I collected my wallet and Sharp organizer and
keys and went outside. Some other people in the
corridor initially thought there was a bomb in a
freight elevator so we all took the stairwell located
away from the freight elevator doors.
In that case thewholesoul don't you think it would have been smarter to see what Felipe [Correction:William Radriguez] describes in his original statement?
It's a real concern as to Felipe's [Correction:William Radriguez] expanding version of events... his story is much different now than what he originally gave. The explosions in the basement is still rather baseless. I can appreciate your efforts to clarify the physical properties of steel with regards to how sounds travel through it but the testimony is entirely consistent with what's been said before. There is no mention of explosions, explosives, anything of the like.
Unfortunately this came to my attention a bit late to add in to the original response so I suppose this will have to suffice. The excerpt I retrieved here came from William Rodriguez, NOT Felipe. I apologize for any confusion the error might have led to.
point taken, but you really went into a lot of effort just to make the point he was in wtc? i really wish that you would put the same effort into the other points i made? and where was he relative to the elevator shaft exactly? you see i provided two witnesses Felipe David and Philip Morelli who were right beside the elevator shaft and neither recalled the sound of the explosion coming from that direction.
that means you are wrong.
you said Felipe should have heard the explosion coming from the elevator doors because the sound they heard travelled down the air in the elevator shaft from the impact zone. but the truth is they didnt hear the sound of the explosion coming from the elevator door. in fact noone in the basement did. simple facts like that would force me to change my position. is it going to change yours?
peace
p.s. i will address your "main point" as soon as get the time
your right - thats what happens when i write in a rush
point taken, but you really went into a lot of effort just to make the point he was in wtc?
are you going to put that much energy into the other points i made?
you said Felipe would hear the sound of the explosion coming from the elevator door. but nobody in the basement including felipe heard the explosion coming from the elevator shaft door. moreover a vibrating core column does not sound like an explosion.
these two points refute your shockwave theory in relation to the sound of the first basement explosion if you disagree please state your reasons.
peace
p.s. i will address your main point as soon as get the time
I can appreciate your efforts to clarify the physical properties of steel with regards to how sounds travel through it but the testimony is entirely consistent with what's been said before. There is no mention of explosions, explosives, anything of the like
I dont want you to appreciate my clarification of how sound is affected by the physical parameters of the material it passes through I want you to acknowledge whether it is true or false that vibrations passing through s steel core column can not sound like an explosion and if ture to accept its implications.
In regards to Rodriguez, he said that what he heard sounded like someone moving a whole lot of furniture. Given that nobody was presumably moving furniture in the mechanical room below him and given that numerous other individuals on the same floor described hearing an “explosion” [Anthony Saltalamcchia, Felipe David, Salvatore Giambanco, Bobby Hall] or a “big bang” [Kenneth Johannemann] then changing his story from moving furniture to an explosion is not of concern.
What examples is he to provide? Sound travels through steel and does so 17 times faster than it travels through air. Felipe would have heard sounds before hearing the impact sound. I believe he made his point quite clear.
i think Norseman has a responsibility to explain in greater detail how a vibrating core column will SOUND like an explosion. I outlined my reason why it would not i.e. due the physical parameters of a solid, steel approx 340m long core column it could not produce a high pitch sound which is characteristic of an explosion. I can undertsand if a column fell over or snapped that a sound something similar to an explosion would be produced but your not making that argument. So even though you claim to appreciate this point neither Norseman or yourself are willing to counter it?
I am not disputing that fact that the impact sent vibrations through the building and caused it to sway. What i am disputing is that these vibrations or sway would sound like an explosion.
81st floor Michael Wright: "All of a sudden there was this shift of an earthquake. People ask, "Did you hear a boom?" No, the way I can best describe it is that every joint in the building jolted.
40th floor Brendan MacWade: At 08:48, as I was sitting in my chair, I felt a tremendous jolt. My office chair rolled in one direction and then the opposite direction. During the sway, I could hear the grinding of concrete and steel
In the above testimony we have two accounts of what a swaying building sounded like – it sounded like a jolt, and the grinding of steel and concrete. but what it doesnt sound like is like is a bomb, a boom, a big bang, or an explosion. sometimes it doesnt even make an audible sound although it can still be felt.
72nd floor Frank Lombardi, Lombardi was at his desk. He heard nothing, but felt the tower sway
As for your second point. I agree sound travels through steel 17 times faster than air. in post 588 i used this fact against Norsemans expanded explanation he wrote:
the direct sound of impact traveling down the air inside the elevator shafts would reach him to
that means that Felipe should have FELT the vibratons before he HEARD the sound of the explosion. But this simply does not corresspond to HIS testimony because he heard the explosion BEFORE he FELT the building shaking.
The building started shaking AFTER I heard the explosion below
I am not disputing the fact that sound waves travelled down the air from the impact zone, that would be absurd. What I am saying is that they are not responsible for the explosion Felipe heard. And neither you or Norseman has countered the above point just made.
what sounds would he have heard Grizzly? Would these sounds sound like an explosion? I am really trying to understand your theory but you are not being clear at all. Besides felipe does not report hearing TWO sounds as in one followed by the other, how many times do I need to post this one line sentence before it sinks into your head.
The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below
Felipe said he heard the explosion coming from below him and NOT from the elevators door. Philip Moreli said he heard the explosion coming from above him and NOT from the elevator doors. They were both standing beside the elevator doors – I mean how much more needs to be said? Not to mention the numerous other corroborating testimony on B1 that the explosion came from below them and NOT from the elevator shaft. For instance, William Rodriguez states:
“So I was talking to the supervisor and at about 8:46 we hear boom, an explosion so hard that it pushed us upwards in the air, upwards, and it came out from below us, from the mechanical room that was right below us and it was so loud and so powerful that all the walls crack...”
Can you not see how you are conflating two things? Vibrations are heard by the ears and felt by the body. An explosion is both HEARD and FELT. both you and Norseman try to wish away the sound of the explosion and focus on the vibrations.
Felipe identified the location of the explosion through SOUND and not by the vibrations he felt.
To repeat
“The building started shaking after I HEARD the explosion BELOW”
assuming that your right and the core columns could act like a ventriloquist what KIND of sound was reverberating Grizzly? Please specify. Would that sound have a high pitch for example? we are talking about vibrations going through a steel and solid core column, shockwaves passed through the ENTIRE core column so why didnt Felipe and everyone else on B1 not hear the sound coming above them? or from the elevator shaft on the same level? ASSUMING of course that the reverberating core columns could produce a sound like an explosion – which they cannot.
there was no confusion he and everyone else on B1 heard the explosion BELOW them and those on B4 heard the explosion ABOVE them because SOMETHING EXPLODED grizzly on the B2/3 level. the official fireball hypotheis can at least account for the sound of the explosion in the basement because fuel deflagrations do sound like explosions but this vibrating steel framework argument is utter nonsense.
How can you be sure that what they heard below them was not a secondary explosion from the jet fuel, or the detonation of a preplanted explosive device? But quote the “numerous” accounts anyways.
but there was steel framework in the floor above felipe so why didnt the sound appear to originate from there?
This is what makes me laugh. I am the crazy one because I happen to believe the people who were actually there that day when they say that they HEARD the sound of an explosion coming from below them but your the sane one to say that sound waves from a plane crash 90+ floors above travelled downwards but the reverberating steel framework above Felipe magically did not make any sound, then the sound waves somehow passed the elevator shaft door that he was standing beside SILENTLY before taking a HORIZONTAL TURN to sound as if they actually originated from below him! in essence you are actually arguing that NOTHING exploded below Felipe that the first basment explosion was nothing more than vibrations which they mistakenly thought sounded like something actually exploded ! I think you and Norseman should seriously stop taking that medication your smoking.
But this is my final argument that should put to rest once and for all you and Norsemans absurd explanation for the the first basement explosion. on the opposite side of Felipe on the B1 level Salvatore Giambanco had just stepped out of an elevator when he states that
"We heard the explosion and the smoke all of a sudden came from all over. There was an incredible force of wind that also swept everything away. I remember hearing a scream of a woman, but I couldn't see her.
Are you really still on this sound vibration thing? TWS, YOU have to prove how it's impossible for steel vibrating to sounds like a rumble or explosion, since that is your argument. You know you can't do it, so now you are trying to require that everyone else prove how it can.
You got caught in a lie and now you are just trying to get out of it. As per usual. Vibrating metal almost always sounds like an explosions, and heck one of the early principles o creating explosion sounds for special effects was vibrating metal plates.
"but there was steel framework in the floor above felipe so why didnt the sound appear to originate from there? "
Low frequencies are omnidirectional and not directional. You cannot tell what direction they come from and if you think you do know the directions, then you are almost always wrong. The higher the frequency, the more directional, the lower the frequency, the less directional. An example your average person might be able to relate to is your home theater sound system where you can pretty much put the sub woofer anywhere in the room since the direction of those frequencies cannot be heard. It's just a fundamental principle of sound waves. Pure sine waves at higher frequencies have a similar effect, though not really a factor in the WTC. Just more of the point of how sound waves have principles and this concept you have about direction is simply incorrect.
Given that nobody was presumably moving furniture in the mechanical room below him and given that numerous other individuals on the same floor described hearing an “explosion” [Anthony Saltalamcchia, Felipe David, Salvatore Giambanco, Bobby Hall] or a “big bang” [Kenneth Johannemann] then changing his story from moving furniture to an explosion is not of concern.
No one person should be expected to interpret what they hear in the same way. Some like Rodriguez associated sounds through similes of "Like or as", while others associated sounds via metaphor or hyperbole, neither of which requires a "like or as" reference. Not one mentions bombs so it's hasty to assume that they couldn't possibly be using such language.
Norseman asserted that and i think Norseman has a responsibility to explain in greater detail how a vibrating core column will SOUND like an explosion.
In the above testimony we have two accounts of what a swaying building sounded like – it sounded like a jolt, and the grinding of steel and concrete. But what it doesnt sound like is like is a bomb, a boom, a big bang, or an explosion. sometimes it doesn't even make an audible sound although it can still be felt.
This is a hasty generalization at the very least as the audible effects of the structural members flexing under excessive strain and otherwise would be determined by location inside the towers and the environmental conditions.
It's brazen to come to a conclusion from two accounts in two similar areas of a building.
that means that Felipe should have FELT the vibratons before he HEARD the sound of the explosion. But this simply does not corresspond to HIS testimony because he heard the explosion BEFORE he FELT the building shaking.
Sound travels through air and materials as vibrations between molecules. What you appear to be discounting is that as such he'd have heard sounds eminating from the impact point twice. The first would have bgeen omnidirectional emanating from the structural member the vibrations travel through. The sound of the impact traveling in the air reached the location well after that traverseing the steel framework.
As described above, the vibrations traveling through the steel framework would have resulted in sound being heard. As I have only witness testimony to go by what kind of answer are you expecting from me?
I am not disputing that fact that the impact sent vibrations through the building and caused it to sway. What i am disputing is that these vibrations or sway would sound like an explosion
I want you to acknowledge whether it is true or false that vibrations passing through s steel core column can not sound like an explosion and if true to accept its implications.
That entirely depends on what the witness associates the sound with but yes, structural members can generate popping loud sounds among others when undergoing excessive flexing or shear stresses. I believe this crane collapse illustrates my point:
Sorry for confusing you, I assumed since you clearly explained the material properties of steel as it relates to sound you would pick up on what I was hinting at.
Given that the two sounds were separated at most by about .5 to 1 second, depending on his location in the basement and the environmental factors he may or may not have been able to discern between the separate events.
Felipe said he heard the explosion coming from below him and NOT from the elevators door. Philip Moreli said he heard the explosion coming from above him and NOT from the elevator doors. They were both standing beside the elevator doors – I mean how much more needs to be said? Not to mention the numerous other corroborating testimony on B1 that the explosion came from below them and NOT from the elevator shaft. For instance, William Rodriguez states: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIZtqKiidlo
Your defense was the following what else other than vibrations were travelling through the building Grizzly?
Ah, my mistake, I assumed that only the steel core would experience the secondary effects of the impact. Thank you for reminding me. Thankfully Jonny does not make such a mistaken assumption regarding this concept:
"but there was steel framework in the floor above felipe so why didnt the sound appear to originate from there? "
Low frequencies are omnidirectional and not directional. You cannot tell what direction they come from and if you think you do know the directions, then you are almost always wrong. The higher the frequency, the more directional, the lower the frequency, the less directional. An example your average person might be able to relate to is your home theater sound system where you can pretty much put the sub woofer anywhere in the room since the direction of those frequencies cannot be heard. It's just a fundamental principle of sound waves. Pure sine waves at higher frequencies have a similar effect, though not really a factor in the WTC. Just more of the point of how sound waves have principles and this concept you have about direction is simply incorrect.
And when people describe something as an explosion it is automatically tied to explosives? People are incapable of associating sounds with a common reference (what is better known as a metaphor or simile)? You've filtered all of those factors out?
I'm still not following where you are coming from with this assertion of yours.
Sound is by very principal a vibration that requires a medium to be perceived, be it gas, liquid, or a solid. This is why sound cannot be perceived in the vacuum of space.
I could call your interpretation here a logical fallacy, though it's a shame I can't ever seem to pick off the exact classification of fallacy it is off the top of my head. Norseman and myself have made no such attempt to somehow separate sound and vibration, needless to say I've no idea how either of us would as it's not possible to separate the two
The difference in discerning direction has to do with the time it takes sound to be heard through either ear and whether or not the human brain can perceive the difference. I believe Jonny went into this in his response to you.
Would that sound have a high pitch for example? we are talking about vibrations going through a steel and solid core column, shockwaves passed through the ENTIRE core column so why didnt Felipe and everyone else on B1 not hear the sound coming above them? or from the elevator shaft on the same level?
Suddenly demonstrates a lack of understanding? The effects of the impact were not relegated to just the core columns, it was felt throughout. You don't seem to understand particularly well that the entire building served as a medium for the vibrations to traverse.
This is certainly a strange claim coming from you, and considering that some of the witness testimony you used indicate otherwise. "I believe", "we believe," "sounded like," "thought it came from" sure don't corroborate your claim. They were unsure of what was happening almost a quarter-mile above them as well. What is your definition of confusion in the context of our discussion if the above is not?
How can you be sure that what they heard below them was not a secondary explosion from the jet fuel, or the detonation of a preplanted explosive device? But quote the “numerous” accounts anyways.
In this one I'd have to ask what exactly was the purpose of these explosives in the first place given that none of them evidently had any effect on the structural stability, and the core was the last part of both structures to fail. Why detonate explosives a full hours and a half BEFORE the final collapse and risk having the plans exposed prematurely? Why use such devices to "scare" occupants out when these conspirators clearly had no reason to prevent the deaths of 3,000 people?
There are quite a few schematics we could derail this thread into but the principal answer to your response is that unlike yourself, I interpret witness accounts dynamically whereas you treat them statically. What do I mean? I consider the circumstances of the event and the potential of confusion as a direct result of the event itself. You treat witness statements with out any apparent discretion and try to argue an irrational position rationally, the two do not mix.
In effect the gist of your response is begging the question.
Rather than repeat the answer for you multiple times more in this post, I'll let you apply some reading to the earlier parts of my response since the answer is already here
I am the crazy one because I happen to believe the people who were actually there that day when they say that they HEARD the sound of an explosion coming from below them
Nobodies' criticizing you for using their testimony. The problem arises when you take their testimony literally and avoid any scrutiny of why they expressed the testimony as they did!
What did you with with the testimony you used here? You asserted:
That there was absolutely no confusion
The way in which the sound transmitted through the materials played no part in adding to such confusion
that their use of the term "explosion" automatically links to bombs
The list can go on and on. You make these assertions without even backing your claim up. How for example did you eliminate confusion as a factor in the witness testimony? How does the use of "explosion" automatically mean evidence for bombs? You play to the tune as if you read the testimony and immediate have omniscient knowledge of what they experienced. Testimony is just that. A resource subject to interpretation. You also brought up that they are more credible because they were there that day and experienced it first hand. I don't doubt that, but you were not, and you cannot state a conclusion as if you experienced it first hand just by reading testimony.
in essence you are actually arguing that NOTHING exploded below Felipe that the first basment explosion was nothing more than vibrations which they mistakenly thought sounded like something actually exploded!
Don't put words in my mouth TWS. Witness testimony is fallible, you have to read beyond the witness testimony and consider what happened that day, and how the witness took it in. You must then decide what that testimony indicates given the collective of the account and events. You seem to have trouble moving beyond deciding conclusions beyond the face value of the words they speak.
on the opposite side of Felipe on the B1 level Salvatore Giambanco had just stepped out of an elevator when he states that now tell me Grizzly, can a vibrating steel framework produce smoke and an incredible force of wind?
Forget for a second that I never argued that anything that transmitted through the steel structure generated that wind. If they were that powerful of explosives I'd be asking what sort of miracle led to his survival and failed to send a portion of the interior space into partial collapse.
Just something to add. If you are in a building and an explosion were to occur above you, you would almost always think the sound came from below.
One thing that many people do not understand is that the ears are only part of our auditory system. Lower frequencies however are not so much picked up through the ears as they are through vibrations of our body. This is why you have things like Deaf musicians. Their ears don't functions, but they can hear low frequency sounds through vibrations, like we all do.
The biggest trait of an explosion is it's low frequency content. Try to image an explosion without the low end content, or find a recording of an explosion and filter out all the low frequency content. It's no longer an explosion, or even alarming sounding. Now again, most of this information that defines an explosion is not picked up by your ears, but by the vibrations (and I mean vibrations as in frequency, not in terms of a description of something vibrating like a beeper, etc). So since your ears are only involved in the higher frequency content (this is base more on volume threshold than an absolute phenomenon), you are going to sense the sound coming from where ever your body has the most coupling to the source. That would be your feet. Since the low frequencies are traveling through the building and not the air, you are going to pick up the sound with your feet (unless you're strapped to the ceiling).
Another example of sound directionality that doesn't involve low frequencies and more so frequencies that re piked up by your ears are gun fire and sniper fire. The biggest problem with snipers is that it's almost impossible to determine the location from the gun fire unless many shots are fired. Now going by TWS's logic, one should simply hear the gun fire in the direction it came from and know exactly where it comes form. But that's never the case is it? Because sound doesn't work the way he thinks it does. You then have 1000s of reflections as the sound bounces off of every surface at different times and becomes confusing as to the direction. I remember once talking to some marines who had served in Iraq. It wasn't uncommon for them to get fired upon while providing security for buildings or simply sitting on top of houses to keep watch. But the way they determined where gun fire was coming from was by placing a cigarette in the bullet hold and see where the cig pointed. Because of the nature of sound it wasn't possible to simply hear where the gun fire was coming from. The further away from the source you are, the easier it is to determine the general direction, but not with any accuracy (just a general direction). Because the further away you are the less reflections there are.
If anyone gets a chance, an anechoic chamber is a pretty cool place to check out. Sound becomes VERY directional since there are no sound reflections. If a sound is made you will hear exactly where it is coming from. If someone is talking to you and they turn their head away from you, you won't be able to hear them anymore. Pretty much just the opposite as the issue we're discussing, but helps one to understand how sound can work.
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I don't mind occasionally playing devil's advocate here, let's say these were in fact explosives that were responsible. In the end what purpose would these explosives have played in the collapse of the towers? 
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