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Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

wow, that was an impressive post.

i apologise if i sound arrogant that is not my intention. but my argument is very simple and no one has debunked it.

based on testimony we know where and when that the first basement explosion occured. it occured somewhere on the B2-3 level. and it occured below car 50 and before car 50 reached B1.

so the question is how did the fireball or jet fuel get from the imapct zone to B2-3 before the car 50? the answer is it cannot. i do regret that you rather go off on an elegant rant than admit the truth when it stares you smack in the face.

Yes your argument has been debunked and you know it. In post #499 and post #503 I gave you a perfectly reasonable explanation for the first explosion that Felipe David believed occurred below him:
As should be evident from my post #499 there is no need for any jet fuel or your fantasy bombs to explain the first "explosion" heard by Felipe David and other witnesses in the basement levels of WTC 1. In all likelihood the first thing they heard and felt was the impact of Flight 11 itself transfered through the structure, just like numerous other witnesses on all levels of WTC 1 (see post #499 for links). That would be the first "explosion" they heard.

The tower was impacted a by 128 000 kg aircraft at a speed of 200 m/s. Sound travels through structural steel with a speed of about 4500 m/s. So the impact shock wave would reach B1 instantly. Felipe David would hear the impact sound transferred through the core columns. And he would feel the impact shock wave and the following vibrations through the floor he was standing on, something that easily would lead him to believe that the "explosion" occurred below him.

The impact of Flight 11 was equivalent to the detonation of 600 kg of TNT.

And as should be evident from the account of Felipe David he was burned some unknown time after he heard the "explosion":
"That day I was in the basement in sub-level 1 sometime after 8:30am. Everything happened so fast, everything moved so fast. The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below, dust was flying everywhere and all of a sudden it got real hot.

"I threw myself onto the floor, covered my face because I felt like I was burned. I sat there for a couple of seconds on the floor and felt like I was going to die, saying to myself 'God, please give me strength."
Source

He was burned after he heard the explosion, noticed that the building was shaking and that dust was flying everywhere. What burned him was the jet fuel fireballs coming down the elevator shafts from the impact zone.

In post #269 I described some other very likely sources of explosive sounds before the arrival of the jet fuel fireballs that burned Felipe David. The falling debris would also explain the dust described by Felipe David.

But instead of acknowledging for a second that the above could be a rationale explanation for what Felipe David experienced, you resort to erecting a straw man of something not claimed by anyone here:
VIBRRATIONS FROM A PLANE IMPACT 90+ FLOORS ABOVE DO NOT BURN PEOPLES SKIN OFF THEIR FACE

and this:
so a blast wave refraction flew down the shaft then bouced back up and burnt the skin off felipe's face.

You know fully well thewholesoul, that if you acknowledged the very reasonable possibility that the "explosion" heard by Felipe David could be the impact of Flight 11 that there is absolutely nothing left of your bombs in the basement fantasy. Since you have run out of arguments you are now down to creating silly straw mens in an attempt to keep your unsubstantiated fantasy or game alive.
 
There were other elevator shafts.

and why do you think that is signficant?

you have three elevator shafts 50, 6 and 7 these were the only avenues the fireball could travel down and reach the basment.

i have covered this before.
 
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and why do you think that is signficant?

you have three elevator shafts 50, 6 and 7 these were the only avenues the fireball could travel down and reach the basment.

i have covered this before.

And so has everyone else. Maybe you might want to go back and read those parts of the thread kiddo.
 
SHOCK-WAVE EXPLANATION FOR THE FIRST BASEMENT EXPLOSION DEBUNKED:

In Mark Roberts paper the explanation for the first basement explosion is a jet fuel deflagration or what is commonly refered to as the fireball hypothesis
The descriptions of explosions in the basement levels are entirely consistent with jet fuel traveling down the elevator shafts
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethetowers:summaryofwitnessaccounts

This explanation has been proven to be physically impossible because the first basement explosion occured below car 50 and before it reached the B1 basement level. That means for the official explanation to be true, whatever exploded below car 50 and before it reached B1, it had to travel down 90+floors from the impact zone and pass elevator car 50 undetected. But since elevator car 50 only had to fall approximately 17 floors at the speed of gravity until the breaks were applied and given that the fireball produced upon impact was estimated by NIST to be expanding at 28m/s we can safely conclude that a fireball from the impact zone with that velocity could not have possibly reached car 50 let alone manage to pass it and then explode! Furthermore to believe in this fantazy one has to believe that a raging fireball could pass car 50 literally undetected by the passengers within car 50. Of course no debunker in the JREF forum can convincingly address these problems, they are unable to face the reality that the official fireball explanation is impossible and even less able to debunk my argument that proves its impossible.

But there are some truly objective minded individuals in the JREF forum, Norseman for instance, recognizes the fact that the fireball could not have passed car 50
My view has always been that the jet fuel fireball arrived after elevator car #50 reached B1/B2.
Now the obvious implication of this view is that Norseman must provide another explanation – other than the official explanation - for the first basement ‘explosion’ and in this post I will debunk Norsman’s latest explanation for this event. But before I continue it is worth pointing out that in relation to the first basement explosion Norsman’s explanation has been anything but consistent. First it was a (i) “fireball” (post#1), then it was (ii) “falling debris” (post#269), and now its a (iii) “shock-wave” (post#561). Of the three explanations a shock wave travelling at 4500m/s most certainly could have passed the falling elevator before it reached B1. But would it ‘sound’ like an ‘explosion’ to those individuals on B1 and B4?

Norseman writes
“The impact shock wave would reach B1 instantly. Felipe David would hear the impact sound transferred through the core columns”.

I agree that when the plane struck the steel core columns vibrations travelled right down the length of the core. It is a known fact that every vibrating object has a resonant frequency determined by its physical parameters such as its thickness, length etc. For example, consider a tuning fork, a longer heavier tuning fork when struck will produce a lower frequency than a shorter lighter tuning fork. Accordingly, a typical garden fork due to its thickness and length etc will produce an even lower frequency when struck.

Now I cant say exactly what the resonance frequency of a steel core column is but I can say with all certainty that, due to their thickness and length, that the core columns would have produced a low frequency wavelenght. But here is the problem: all explosions produce high frequency wavelenghts therefore whatever caused the explosion Felipe David and many others heard in the basment could not possibly have been caused by a shock-wave passing through a core column because vibrations passing through core columns DO NOT SOUND ANYTHING LIKE EXPLOSIONS.

To support this claim I found a website that lists many various sources of explosions, but to my astonishment there was no example of a vibrating steel core producing the sound of an explosion!! http://www.shockwave-sound.com/sound-effects/explosion_sounds.html

But there are other problems with the shockwave explanation. The shock waves travelled through the length of the entire core column, that is from the impact zone right down to basement level B6. Norseman claims that these vibrations would sound like an explosion (although impossible let us assume this to be true). But how come nobody on B6 heard an explosion? How come those on B4 heard an explosion above them and those on B1 heard an explosion below them (a fact entirely consistent with the detonation of an explosive device on level B2/3)? And how come
“13 (non-deaf) people on 12 levels below the impact zone didn’t hear the aircraft impact/explosion on their building”
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethetowers:summaryofwitnessaccounts

If indeed vibrations travelling through a steel core column could sound like an explosion then everyone should have heard the explosion because if I am not mistaken the core columns ran the entire length of the building.

Now its a known fact that all shockwaves decrease in energy over distance and time so it violates basic laws of physics to suggest that 13 non deaf individuals only 12 floors below the plane crash did not hear the sound of an explosion generated from the vibrating core columns yet individuals 90+ floors below heard the sound of an explosion generated from vibrating core columns?

So to believe Norseman’s latest fantazy one has to believe that these shock waves passed SILENTLY over some floors then INCREASED IN ENERGY OVER DISTANCE AND TIME and magically manisfested from a low frequency wavelength into a high frequency wave length!! Frankly this explanation is ABSOLUTLY absurd and if you are unable to counter the above reasons then the rational thing to do would be to abandon your current explanation for the sound of the first basement explosion and seek perhaps a less fantastic alternative my friend.

peace
 
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This explanation has been proven to be physically impossible because the first basement explosion occured below car 50 and before it reached the B1 basement level.
Oh look, thewholesoul is back and still doesn't understand how the elevator shafts were constructed.
 
And so has everyone else. Maybe you might want to go back and read those parts of the thread kiddo.

why dont you be a pal and quote whatever argument you think debunks me.

my argument is incredibly simple: the first basment explosion occured below car 50 and before it reached B1 we can establish this fact from known testimony. It is physically impossible for jet fuel falling a distance of 90+ floors to pass car 50; it is physically impossible for an expanding fireball at 28m/s to pass car 50. Shockwaves travelling at 4500m/s did pass car 50 but low frequency vibrations can not physically sound like a high frequency explosion.

so kiddo, whats your response?

peace
 
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethetowers:summaryofwitnessaccounts

If indeed vibrations travelling through a steel core column could sound like an explosion then everyone should have heard the explosion because if I am not mistaken the core columns ran the entire length of the building.

Now its a known fact that all shockwaves decrease in energy over distance and time so it violates basic laws of physics to suggest that 13 non deaf individuals only 12 floors below the plane crash did not hear the sound of an explosion generated from the vibrating core columns yet individuals 90+ floors below heard the sound of an explosion generated from vibrating core columns?

Nit Pick.... in the bolded are I marked:


13 (non-deaf) people on 12 levels below the impact zone didn’t hear the aircraft impact/explosion on their building

The statement is followed by which building, and the floors on which the witnesses were located:

North Tower: 88, 81, 72, 62, 60, 50, 35, 34, 28, 8, Concourse, B6.

So if I follow your argument I'm confused. You state that if people 12 floors below the impact region could not hear explosions and people 80 floors down could, that there must have been bombs in the basement, yet in reality, these witnesses were distributed throughout the tower ranging from floor 88 to the concourse level. I think you've grossly misinterpreted the account you took from, and your premise has become even more confusing to me...

Those accounts refer to the moment the plane hit the building, not before...:confused:


It then follows with:
50 people on 31 levels below the impact zones described significant secondary damage (walls down, doors jammed, broken pipes, stairwells disintegrating, etc. Not intended to suggest structural damage.)


and similar to the previous point indicates which tower, and where observations were made:

North Tower: 88, 85, 83, 82, 81, 78, 77, 76, 74, 72, 71, 68, 63, 40, 30, 29, 22, 21, Plaza level, Concourse, B1, B4, B6, Basement (level unknown)

South Tower: 76, 70, 68, 67, 40, Plaza level, Concourse.

And the basement bombs caused secondary damage to the upper floors? Something doesn't sound right here in your argument
 
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Oh look, thewholesoul is back and still doesn't understand how the elevator shafts were constructed.

thats right i am back after unpopular demand. been crazy busy lately - opening a new buisness - and this requires all my time unfortunately.

i understand how the elevator shaft works. your argument is juvenile at best. why dont you point out or maybe provide some reasons why my argument is false or untrue? so please elaborate on your point that the manner by which the elevators were constrcuted affects my argument.

can you do that?

peace
 
So if I follow your argument I'm confused. You state that if people 12 floors below the impact region could not hear explosions

no mark roberts stated that. but you can read it in the testimony for yourself to verify his claim.

and people 80 floors down could,

no, my argument is that they could not

that there must have been bombs in the basement,

it is physically impossible for jet fuel or a fireball to pass car 50 before it reached B1. it is fact that the first basement explosion occured below car 50 and before it reached B1. why dont you address this very basic truth?

yet in reality, these witnesses were distributed throughout the tower ranging from floor 88 to the concourse level.

i was aware of this fact besides the exact location of the individuals makes no difference to my point.

to repeat: Norseman claimed that the first basment explosion was caused by vibrations transfered through the core columns. the core columns ran the entire length of the building. therefore assuming a vibrating core column could produce the sound of an explosion (which is impossible please address my point on the resonant frequency of materials post 465) then everyone should have heard the sound of the explosion because vibrations ran through all of the core column and the core column ran the length of the entire building. So because everyone did not hear the sound of the explosion we can therefore rule out the claim that the sound of the explosion was generated by a vibrating steel core column.

I think you've grossly misinterpreted the account you took from

read the above

and your premise has become even more confusing to me...

well that because you did not understand the point i was making.

Those accounts refer to the moment the plane hit the building, not before...:confused:

Norseman argued that a shockwave explains the sound of first basment explosion heard by Felipe David, Philip Morelli, William Rodriguez, etc. A shockwave travels at 4500m/s therefore the sound of the first basement explosion according to Norseman occured at the moment the plane struck the building. so those accounts i refered to who were closer to the impact zone and the source of the shockwave did not hear the sound of the plane crash? makes no sense considering that Norseman is arguing that the vibrating core columns were the supposed mechanism that transfered the sound of the impact to 90+ floors below.


And the basement bombs caused secondary damage to the upper floors? Something doesn't sound right here in your argument

perhaps because i never made that argument. i am focusing on the FIRST basement explosion and this argument remains undefeated. i know this because you and others will not address it directly and rather avoid the simple truth.

peace
 
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ETA: some of the reports of secondary damage are also made from some of the same floors that people did not hear the explosions... are basements bombs remotely capable of that?:confused:

i'm confused...why are you so confused these days grizzly??

i know you wish to talk about other things - anything - besides addressing the cause of the FIRST basment explosion.

i know you wish to argue that the building sway is the cause of all the secondary damage. well tell me grizzly how does building sway burn the skin off the face of Felipe David 90+ floors below the impact?

peace
 
name the post

Bob.


BTW, the explosions in the basement pretty much prove that the fireballs traveled down to them. Now would you like to present some evidence to prove that they were bombs instead? We would be more than happy to see that. Because you simply not being able to understand or figure out how the blasts travelled is not evidence.
 
no mark roberts stated that. but you can read it in the testimony for yourself to verify his claim.
no, my argument is that they could not
I admit I misread part of the post I was responding to. It does not however change where you took the account from, and how you represented it here in this thread. You linked to the source and you misrepresented it in presentation.


i was aware of this fact besides the exact location of the individuals makes no difference to my point.
Let's go over your basic paraphrase of the quote:

Now its a known fact that all shockwaves decrease in energy over distance and time so it violates basic laws of physics to suggest that 13 non deaf individuals only 12 floors below the plane crash did not hear the sound of an explosion generated from the vibrating core columns yet individuals 90+ floors below heard the sound of an explosion generated from vibrating core columns?

I bolded the parts that are relevant to my point. Let's reexamine the posting you got this from:
13 (non-deaf) people on 12 levels below the impact zone didn’t hear the aircraft impact/explosion on their building

I don't know if how it sounds in your context is intentional or not but it does make a difference contrary to what you claim. I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you that. If you didn't intend to convey that way the least I would expect you to do is clarify it, not hand wave it as nothing.


well that because you did not understand the point i was making.
See above, I don't like people who hand wave their mistakes. Your misrepresentation of the material you retrieved from that website confuses your point. I'm pointing that out for you.
 
i know you wish to argue that the building sway is the cause of all the secondary damage. well tell me grizzly how does building sway burn the skin off the face of Felipe David 90+ floors below the impact?

peace

Here is a counter point for you. If people on various floors below the plane impacts did not hear the explosion from the plane impacting the tower, they why do a few accounts from the concourse level and inside the basement not hear the explosions you claim come from bombs in the basements? How does a bomb gain notice to some people, but not to others in the same area?


What about ABM Industries janitor James Barrett, who was on the 6 a.m. shift and cleaning a basement room a quarter-mile below where the first plane hit the North Tower, was in the dark [figuratively]? “I was in the building when both planes hit but I didn’t hear a thing,” said Barrett, who has spent 22 of his 39 years keeping the World Trade Center clean and operating smoothly.
 
it was an unintentional misrepresentation.

but do you understand why it makes no difference to my argument whether they were all 12 floors below or whether they were located on the 12th, 20th, 30th, 40th etc floor below?

my argument was that Norsemans claim that the sound of the first basment explosion was caused by a shockwave is impossible. are you going to address THAT argument or not?

I don't know if how it sounds in your context is intentional or not but it does make a difference contrary to what you claim.

i disagree please explain further

I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you that. If you didn't intend to convey that way the least I would expect you to do is clarify it, not hand wave it as nothing.

dont be sorry your right.

peace
 
why do a few accounts from the concourse level and inside the basement not hear the explosions you claim come from bombs in the basements? How does a bomb gain notice to some people, but not to others in the same area?

over a dozen people on B1 heard and felt the first basement explosion below them, and numerous individuals on B4 heard and felt the first basment explosion above them.

why some people on the concourse level located above B1 did not hear or feel the the detonation of an explosive device somewhere on B2/3 is the same reason why people on B6 did not hear and feel the explosion. the answer is proximity.

as for the testimony of janitor james barrett - you will need to establish which floor in the basement he was on because nobody to my knowledge heard an explosion on B6.

peace
 
Why again is it "impossible" for the sounds of the explosion to have been caused by a shockwave?

it is impossible for a shockwave (vibrations) travelling down 90+ floors of a steel core column to generate the SOUND of an explosion

BECAUSE: a vibrating steel core column has a low resonacne frequency and the sound of an explosion has a high resonance frequency.

you should try reading my posts as it saves me time repeating myself.

as for "evidence" argument i responded to this in post #377 and your were unable to counter it in an intelligent way.

peace
 

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