Trouble Ahead on the High Seas (ISM)

[mrbaracuda]

mrbaracuda, why do you think he holds such extreme views?

The MA holds me back in answering the question. That and a nice mix of all of what you mentioned above is my guess.

 

[FireGarden]

I have told you what issues I have with your views.

The only problem you raised was the same one I addressed: the context. You didn't like the holocaust being brought up in response to the Danish cartoons. Neither did I.

What other problem have you mentioned?

I am undecided as to whether you just hate Jews and/or Israelis or whether you have such an extreme hatred of the West that you have been blinded to the immorality of your position. Either that, or you are down right ignorant. Perhjaps you are just extremely anti-social - I can't see how someone can discuss the artistic merits of such cartoons with such detachment.

Out of interest, do you actually accept that the Holocaust occurred? Are you capable of feeling sympathy for its victims?

Yes I do believe the Holocaust occured.
And, yes, I do have sympathy for the victims.

Maybe you are the one detached from the plight of Palestinians. Do you deny that Gaza is a prison? Do you have no sympathy for the victims?

Perhaps you should read the articles I linked.

Yosef Lapid, one of whose grandmothers died in the holocaust, was reminded of his grandmother when he saw a Palestinian woman digging in the rubble of her house -- searching for her medicine.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3740649.stm

"I said that if we carry on like this, we will be expelled from the United Nations and those responsible will stand trial at The Hague," Mr Lapid told Israel radio, describing his argument in cabinet.

Lapid's point wasn't that Israel was conducting another Holocaust. But the Holocaust didn't begin with the killing of 6 million. It began with hatred and seperation.

Avraham Burg raised a similar point.
Read the article I linked.

I think that Latuff's cartoon of a Warsaw child saying "I am Palestinian" is just as relevant. I have no problem with it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jan/23/israelandthepalestinians.world

Gaza is on the threshold of becoming the first territory to be intentionally reduced to a state of abject destitution, with the knowledge, acquiescence and - some would say - encouragement of the international community.

[...] Gaza's border closures are without precedent. Palestinians are effectively incarcerated. The overwhelming majority cannot leave or enter Gaza. Without fuel and spare parts, public health conditions are declining steeply as water and sanitation services struggle to function.

[...] Hospital infrastructure and essential pieces of equipment are breaking down at an alarming rate, with limited possibility of repair or maintenance as spare parts are not available.

[...] As the head of a humanitarian and human development agency for Palestinian refugees, I am deeply concerned by the stark inhumanity of Gaza's closure. I am disturbed by the seeming indifference of much of the world as hundreds and thousands of Palestinians are harshly penalised for acts in which they have no part.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel

Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said.

Oh, how kind!
No-one will be starved to death.

We already have the seperation and hatred. I think Latuff's Gaza prision cartoon is a great warning to a world that is encouraging the collective punishment of a population.

If you disagree. Fine. But say so. You can't condemn me while limiting your criticism to the same point I condemned: the context.

 

[FireGarden]

The MA holds me back in answering the question. That and a nice mix of all of what you mentioned above is my guess.

Does the MA apply to the Abandon All Hope forum? Don't be shy.

 

[FireGarden]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3588670,00.html
Jeff Halper has now been released.

Police originally thought to release Halper conditionally following preliminary questioning, but apparently decided to keep him in lock-up overnight.

[...] Halper is forbidden from nearing Gaza for the next 30 days and the court ordered him to pay collateral to ensure his compliance.

[...] According to information relayed during the meeting, the 'Free Gaza' organization that coordinated last weekend's sail intends to send two more ships from Cyprus to Gaza soon, carrying food.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Does the MA apply to the Abandon All Hope forum? Don't be shy.

Great, you have figured out what the MA is. I'm so proud of you.
As for the question, I assume so.

 

[webfusion]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3588670,00.html
Jeff Halper has now been released. --- (he indicated) "the 'Free Gaza' organization that coordinated last weekend's sail intends to send two more ships from Cyprus to Gaza soon, carrying food."

Pretty good trick to accomplish, since the people who organized the 'ships of fools' are completely broke, and another trip will cost tens of thousands of $$$ and the cargo capacity in those small dories is limited. What are they gonna bring to gaza, Cracker Jacks? To go along with the balloons they took this time?
Really, what a circus.

If they really wanted to prove how committed they are to a peaceful resolution, perhaps they could demand that Cpl Gilad Shalit be released unconditionally, or at least they want to be able to see him and check on his condition.
Yet, nary a peep.

 

[FireGarden]

It's Gilad Shalit's birthday.
You've got to feel for his family:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1015868.html

“And just to contemplate what a young man kidnapped at 19, whose third birthday in captivity this is, what he is thinking, what he knows, if he even knows anything, if anybody tells him what date it is, if anybody informs him that it’s his birthday. After all, we have no clue even in what kind of conditions he’s being kept.”

Have you read his story?

 

[webfusion]

Sailing off into the sunset...

The boats have left Gaza and took with them a few Palestinian humanitarian cases.

Jeff Halper didn't join them. (He is anticipating being arrested in Israel).

And so ends that latest chapter of the ISM trying to do stuff that is useless.

 

[gtc]

You can't condemn me while limiting your criticism to the same point I condemned: the context.

You are now misrepresenting both my argument and your argument.

 

[FireGarden]

You are now misrepresenting both my argument and your argument.

That's a strange allegation to make.
In my first post on the matter I condemned the cartoons because they were tit-for-tat in response to the Danish cartoons. So I condemned them for the context in which they occurred. In the same post, I gave an example of a context in which I would have found another of Latuff's Holocaust cartoons to fit (Latuff being the guy MrB mentioned).

I then gave other examples of how Latuff's cartoon could be acceptable.

You have not dismissed any of those contexts. You have only implied one reason for not liking the Holocaust cartoons (you only asked a question, rather than make a statement): They attack Jews and Israel in response to a Danish provocation. Therefore you only criticise the cartoons for the context in which they were published.

You have had ample time to criticise the context in which I would find them acceptable. You have not done so. I even asked if you condemn Holocaust cartoons on principle. You did not reply. Therefore, the only reason you criticise them is the context. If that is not the case, then provide another basis on which to condemn them.

 

[mrbaracuda]

You are now misrepresenting both my argument and your argument.

I would argue it's not necessarily wilfully done on his part..

 

[webfusion]

FireGarden:

They (drawings) attack Jews and Israel in response to a Danish provocation.

Do you have any evidence that they were created by the illustrators in response to the Mohammed cartoons?
(I know it would be fairly easy to provide that basis regarding the Iraninan "competition" itself but please try and show what the underlying motivations of the entrants to that contest were. Did they only create the holocaust cartoons in order to join the Iranian challenge, or had they already done their artworks and only incidentally found them later to be suitable for inclusion into the contest?)

For instance -- Moroccan cartoonist Abdollah Derkaoui, whose winning editorial drawing showed the Israelis constructing a 'concentration camp' wall around al-Aqsa mosque. Did he decide to create that before he had ever heard of the Iranian offer?
(the Iranian contest drew 204 entries -- you are claiming that all of them were done "as tit-for-tat" to the Mohammed series?)

BTW, Iranian newspapers reported the results of the competition, but gave it no significant coverage. Not one Iranian paper printed the winning cartoon.

 

[webfusion]

"From Somewhere in the Mediterranean"

Just to interject into my thread on "peace ships" -- I wanted to call attention to a man who I highly respected, who has passed away in Israel at 81.
Abie Nathan.

He sailed a pirate radio ship off the coast of Israel that broadcast popular music to the region.
I believe that John Lennon helped him finance the operation.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1015844.html

• When asked what he would want written on his tomb-stone, he replied "Nisiti" - the Hebrew for "I tried."

 

[FireGarden]

FireGarden:

Do you have any evidence that they were created by the illustrators in response to the Mohammed cartoons?

[...] (the Iranian contest drew 204 entries -- you are claiming that all of them were done "as tit-for-tat" to the Mohammed series?)

When did the artists draw their cartoons?... I don't know. I also don't know the rules of the competition. I suppose they could allow for "2nd hand" entries, as it were.

Latuff seems to have had more than one entry. There's one quoted here:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/worldopinionroundup/2006/02/that_holocaust_cartoon_contest.html

That cartoon is of the western world laughing at the Mohammed cartoons and offended by the Holocaust cartoons. So it was clearly on the topic of Western hypocrisy, which the organisers gave as their own motivation.

Most of the winning entries seemed to ignore that aspect entirely. Some were probably selected on the basis that the organisers needed entries which the west wouldn't publish -- otherwise they'd lose the "argument". (Well, what a troll would call an argument).

I condemn Latuff for entering the contest because I think the contest was an awful idea. Regardless of when he drew his cartoons.

I have already given an example of another of Latuff's cartoons which was published well before the competition. (The Jewish child in Warsaw).

I have also posted articles were I think Latuff's cartoons would have been appropriate.

BTW, Iranian newspapers reported the results of the competition, but gave it no significant coverage. Not one Iranian paper printed the winning cartoon.

Thanks, I hadn't known that.

 

[FireGarden]

Just to interject into my thread on "peace ships" ...

Don't apologise. It was very on topic.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1015844.html

• When asked what he would want written on his tomb-stone, he replied "Nisiti" - the Hebrew for "I tried."

Good choice.
"No man ever made a bigger mistake than he who did nothing because he could do little."

But it sounds like Abie Nathan did a lot.

 

[Gurdur]

Res ipsa loquitur

Show-off.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Gaza is not going to become a military power, that is not in the cards. The West Bank, by virtue of its strategic hills, also cannot develop into a military power, which would threaten Israel (the distance from Tulkarm to Netanya is less than 10 miles).

It can, you just think it would be a poor idea if it did. No surprise, given your loyalty to Israel.

Israel is NOT equal to the Palestinians.

I'll buy that.

Israel is an economic and military superpower.

This reminds me of a flea floating down the Hudson river on his back, with an erection, yelling "Open the drawbridge!"

The Palestinians have deteriorated into an economic basket-case

Yes

because of their love for islamic terrorism

One among numerous reasons . . .

and for that same reason, will never be allowed to evolve into a military superpower.

You keep using that word. Not sure if it means what you think it means.

If you want the Palestinians to move forward, you have to agree that they can do so only in the context of a demilitarized and non-islamic-terrorist-based society.

Wait a minute. Demilitarized? How can the Pals have a state that a priori has to be unarmed? Costa Rica's geopolitical situations the Pals don't enjoy, eh?

The UN cannot help in that.

There's a lot the UN can't help.

DR

 

[mrbaracuda]

Well for the immediate region I suppose an Israeli like webfusion here can have dreams, right?
What's the score anyway? haSchem:Allah.. 5:0?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Well for the immediate region I suppose an Israeli like webfusion here can have dreams, right?
What's the score anyway? haSchem:Allah.. 5:0?

Israel may be a regional power, but is not a superpower.

As to the score, I'd like to ask which game is in progress?

DR

 

[mrbaracuda]

2nd half time coming up with Hezb'allah I think. Not too interesting, the Jews are going to bash them proper this time mate! Proper I said!

Cheers.