Trouble Ahead on the High Seas (ISM)

[webfusion]

"superpower" in the sense of having nukes and extensive air, sea and land forces that include the most sophisticated weaponry available. That reference was also made in relation to the Palestinians (my sentence probably should have read "Israel is a superpower vis-a-vis the Palestinians.")

Do you think that an Iranian-armed and supplied military presence in Gaza would be a good thing? By your saying that I "just think it would be a poor idea if it did. No surprise, given your loyalty to Israel." it sure seems that you happen to believe it wouldn't be a problem.

As all this relates to the thread itself, Israel has legitimate fears of the blockade being broken with a steady influx of ships that could be bringing all manner of smuggled items which Israel wants to prevent from getting into Gaza ( which already is stockpiled to the rafters with weaponry ).

How can the Pals have a state that a priori has to be unarmed?

See: 'Protectorate'

 

[Darth Rotor]

"superpower" in the sense of having nukes and extensive air, sea and land forces that include the most sophisticated weaponry available.

Sorry, they are a local, regional Power. That's it. Delusions of grandeur aren't pretty.

That reference was also made in relation to the Palestinians (my sentence probably should have read "Israel is a superpower vis-a-vis the Palestinians.")

That makes more sense.

Do you think that an Iranian-armed and supplied military presence in Gaza would be a good thing?

No, but I suspect the locals there would like it greatly, given their goals.

By your saying that I "just think it would be a poor idea if it did. No surprise, given your loyalty to Israel." it sure seems that you happen to believe it wouldn't be a problem.

Nope. The tensions remain a problem, but as far as I am concerned, it's not my problem.

As all this relates to the thread itself, Israel has legitimate fears of the blockade being broken with a steady influx of ships that could be bringing all manner of smuggled items which Israel wants to prevent from getting into Gaza ( which already is stockpiled to the rafters with weaponry ).

Which is why they are still applying a maritime embargo. Blockade is an incorrect usage here, unless you contend that Gaza Pals and Israelis are in a state of war. Do you so consider the state of play?

See: 'Protectorate'

See "not gonna work" in any working definition of "work."

DR

 

[webfusion]

D-R:

Delusions of grandeur aren't pretty.

You should know that Israelis maintain those delusions, as a matter of routine.
It's just how we see things. We somehow imagine ourselves as invincible.

No, I don't consider the IDF to be at war with HAMASTAN-Gaza. In fact, the Tadiyyeh (lull) is holding exceptionally well. I agree with you -- maritime embargo is the accurate term.
Which is exactly why the Israeli government decided to let those two small craft proceed without bothering them. They posed no threat and had a clearly-defined non-lethal cargo of balloons.

ETA __ Just for reference, the Palestinian territories are already de-facto Insular Possessions of Israel. Formalizing that status with a treaty shouldn't be so drastic.

 

[FireGarden]

It's become a jailbreak:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1016232.html

After five days on the Gaza Strip's coastline, two boats carrying humanitarian aid in efforts to break an Israeli-imposed economic blockade on the Strip set sail for Cyprus on Thursday, carrying seven Palestinians who had been confined to the Strip.

Israel's navy made no effort to stop the vessels.

Flying Palestinian flags, the boats carried dozens of activists away from Gaza's Mediterranean coastline, following a five-day stay in the Hamas-ruled territory.

[...] The Palestinians on board included a father and his 16-year-old son, who hopes to be fitted with an artificial leg abroad. Protest organizers said the youth lost his leg in an Israeli tank shelling incident.

The other Palestinian passengers included a mother and her four children who have residency permits in Cyprus, organizers said.

[...] "On Monday, I got Palestinian citizenship," Halper said. "On Tuesday, I'm already in an Israeli jail." Israeli officials said Halper's acceptance of a Palestinian passport did not endanger his Israeli citizenship, but emphasized that he remains bound by Israeli law.

 

[webfusion]

Hardly a 'jailbreak' -- the youth would have been eligible to go through Israel or Egypt anyway and obtain the needed medical care.
Israel routinely permits such humanitarian cases to leave Gaza.

The family of Cypriots could have also used their documentation to transit Egypt or Israel.
Was Israel stopping them from leaving? I doubt it.

The biggest impediment for people in Gaza trying to leave seems to be the fact that HAMAS is running things and they are 'persona-non-grata' in the eyes of many nations (and also, apparently, in the eyes of the Palestinian Authority itself).
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1834715,00.html

 

[Mycroft]

Hardly a 'jailbreak' -- the youth would have been eligible to go through Israel or Egypt anyway and obtain the needed medical care.
Israel routinely permits such humanitarian cases to leave Gaza.

Which illustrates the propaganda aspect of this mission. It's telling that the pro-Palestinian-Arab side of the conflict needs to routinely misrepresent the facts in these ways.

Maybe you are the one detached from the plight of Palestinians. Do you deny that Gaza is a prison? Do you have no sympathy for the victims?

The "prison" analogy fails in that Palestinians themselves have the ability to end their "imprisonment".

One can feel sympathy for anyone caught in the hardships of war, but they are not "victims" so long as they play an active role in perpetuating that war.

 

[FireGarden]

Hardly a 'jailbreak' -- the youth would have been eligible to go through Israel or Egypt anyway and obtain the needed medical care.
Israel routinely permits such humanitarian cases to leave Gaza.

You've never heard of a jail that lets prisoners out to get medical care?

The family of Cypriots could have also used their documentation to transit Egypt or Israel.
Was Israel stopping them from leaving? I doubt it.

Not via the ferry to Cyprus, anyway!

The biggest impediment for people in Gaza trying to leave seems to be the fact that HAMAS is running things and they are 'persona-non-grata' in the eyes of many nations (and also, apparently, in the eyes of the Palestinian Authority itself).
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1834715,00.html

Which illustrates the propaganda aspect of this mission. It's telling that the pro-Palestinian-Arab side of the conflict needs to routinely misrepresent the facts in these ways.

Which facts have been misrepresented? Webfusion's article talks about a new travel restriction, in addition to Palestinians being "confined to their narrow strip of land by Israeli and Egyptian border closures."

The border is closed except to very few Gazans. Even Egyptians have trouble getting back into Egypt.

If you deny this, then explain why "Egypt said it opened the crossing as a goodwill gesture for the holy Muslim month of Ramadan," in this Haaretz article:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1016527.html

Surely that means it was closed -- and is normally closed.

Egypt has opened the Rafah crossing for two days beginning Saturday.

Thousands of Egyptian citizens had been stuck in Gaza with the border sealed. Egypt closed the crossing last year after militant Muslim group Hamas seized power of the territory.

[...] Officials will allow hundreds of Palestinians needing medical treatment to enter Egypt. Palestinians with foreign residency permits can also leave Gaza, while Palestinians who had been stuck in Egypt will be able to return home.

[...] Over Saturday and Sunday, Egypt will allow Palestinian students enrolled in universities abroad to leave Gaza, along with those with foreign residencies and work visas.

Around 300 Egyptians stuck in Gaza after they entered the territory after Hamas gunmen breached the border in January. They have been unable to return home for months. Some 400 Palestinians needing medical treatment will also head to Egypt on Sunday, officials said.

Which clearly shows that such people are not routinely allowed to leave. The window of opportunity this time is two days only.

However, I think that Egypt may well be shamed into keeping the border open permanently. Especially if Westerners and Israelis start a ferry service between Gaza and Cyprus.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g4IHXLWPzB6Rc4NlHuyjzBZ6jlNAD92SAEGO0

Protester Derek Graham, 40, an electrician from Ireland said the group wants to start a regular ferry service linking Gaza to the east Mediterranean island "to keep the borders open."

The two small boats sailed into Gaza last Saturday to protest Israel's yearlong blockade of Gaza, imposed after the Islamic militant group Hamas overran the territory. Since then, Israel has allowed only minimal humanitarian supplies to enter, causing shortages and hardship. Few Gazans are permitted to leave due to Israeli and Egyptian travel restrictions.

There it is again: Israeli and Egyptian travel restrictions.

Want an example of Israel's restrictions?
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-students31-2008aug31,0,6745813.story

Even with scholarships to prestigious foreign schools, many are trapped by Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip. Only a few with Western backers or high connections get to leave.

[...] The case of seven Gazan Fulbright scholars who were not being allowed to leave the enclave attracted a flurry of international media attention; four of them got out in June after the U.S. intervened. But very few Gazans are allowed out anymore, except in extreme medical cases.

[...] Individual students -- 58 so far this summer, according to Israel -- have been permitted to leave to study overseas. But Daya, the coordinator of Gaza's trapped student committee, estimates that at least 600 have been accepted to foreign universities.

[...] The various loopholes in the closure policy have created a kind of caste system: the free and the trapped. Anyone with any leverage -- a Western government's backing, or high-level connections in Cairo or to the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority in the West Bank -- is using it to get out. Residents say the disparity creates resentment and corrodes Gazan unity.

[...] Students also feel betrayed by Egypt. It is bound by treaty in its handling of the Rafah border crossing. But there's nothing to prevent it from unilaterally opening the border, something it has done in emergency medical cases.

[...] Maj. Peter Lerner, a spokesman for the Israeli military, confirmed that students with prestigious scholarships for study in Western countries are the only ones even being considered for travel.

The overall Israeli policy, Lerner said, is to "allow a minimum" of people out of Gaza, usually in cases of extreme humanitarian need. Graduate students "are not people who need humanitarian aid," he said.

Does that sound like freedom to you? Or does it sound like collective punishment?

The "prison" analogy fails in that Palestinians themselves have the ability to end their "imprisonment".

One can feel sympathy for anyone caught in the hardships of war, but they are not "victims" so long as they play an active role in perpetuating that war.

Blaming the victim is so weak. You should be ashamed.

The border closures are an attack upon a civilian population with the intention of achieving political aims. ie: it is terrorism. It is the exact same sick argument that allows OBL to treat civilians as targets because he doesn't like what their government is doing.

 

[webfusion]

FireGarden keep trying to portray Gaza as a prison:

(you remarked about the Cypriot family that would have been able to leave and return home if they wanted to do so through Israel) - "Not via the ferry to Cyprus, anyway!"

Why not?
There is regular service from Limassol to Haifa.
http://www.varianostravel.com/Cruises/ferry_service.htm

The main reason that Gaza has no ferry service (or shipping lines to gaza port) directly is because the entire Gaza Strip has been transformed into a nest of terrorist vipers and for the Israelis to just allow ships to come and go without any oversight is insane.
That is the same reason the borders are closed in general.
You call it collective punishment. You call it a prison.
I call it taking sensible precautions in the face of an Islamic Terror Regime that openly declares their intent to 'eff with Israel at every chance they get.

 

[FireGarden]

There is regular service from Limassol to Haifa.
http://www.varianostravel.com/Cruises/ferry_service.htm

Didn't you realise which ferry I was talking about? The "Free Gaza"/"Liberty".

Next time, I'll have to crow more blatantly. Israel most certainly did not stop them -- no doubt about it.

The main reason that Gaza has no ferry service (or shipping lines to gaza port) directly is because the entire Gaza Strip has been transformed into a nest of terrorist vipers and for the Israelis to just allow ships to come and go without any oversight is insane.

I don't need your clarification. Israeli politicians state their position clearly enough:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel

Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.

The "diet" is an attack upon civilians to bring about political change.

 

[Mycroft]

Which facts have been misrepresented?

The implication was that Gazans are not allowed exit for medical reasons. Do you deny that this youth had other options available to him?

Blaming the victim is so weak. You should be ashamed.

No, you should feel shame for such a blatant misrepresentation of my position. If you need to resort to such tactics, maybe you should reconsider your motives.

I disagree on your definition of "victim." If the things you describe were being done to Gazans for no reason at all and if Gazans had no recourse at all except to submit then you would be right in everything you say.

But your not. The truth is Israel has very good reasons for blockading Gaza, and Gazans do have options available to them that would end their hardships.

Or do you deny this?

 

[gtc]

Blaming the victim is so weak. You should be ashamed.

Where is the laughing dog smiley?

This from the man who thinks that attacking Holocaust victims is a perfectly fine way to retaliate against the actions of Danish cartoonists.

Thanks to Mycroft for quoting this.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Where is the laughing dog smiley?

Right here, good sir!



May I offer you a facepalm though?

 

[FireGarden]

Where is the laughing dog smiley?

This from the man who thinks that attacking Holocaust victims is a perfectly fine way to retaliate against the actions of Danish cartoonists.

And that from the man who accused me of misrepresenting his argument.

I condemned that cartoon competition because it was in retaliation to the Danish cartoons.

 

[FireGarden]

The implication was that Gazans are not allowed exit for medical reasons. Do you deny that this youth had other options available to him?

No, I don't deny he had other options.
He could have waited for the Rafah crossing to be opened by Egypt. (which wasn't announced until it happened). Or he could have waited for the Western media to get interested in his case, and then for Western pressure to be applied to Israel.

Are you claiming that everyone with a medical need is allowed out? Did you read how many people seeking medical treatment left Gaza over the weekend while Egypt opened their border? 400

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/10/20/isrlpa17139.htm
(October 2007)

Israel is arbitrarily blocking, delaying and harassing people with emergency medical problems who need to leave the Gaza Strip for urgent care, Human Rights Watch said today. At least three patients denied exit permits have died since June, and others have lost limbs or sight due to injuries and disease that have gone without proper treatment.

[...] The Israeli government, and in particular the General Security Service (Shabak), cite unspecified “security concerns” when denying medical patients exit permits from Gaza. But numerous examples point to the arbitrary nature of those decisions, Human Rights Watch said.

This week, for example, the Israeli government allowed six people with life-threatening conditions to leave Gaza, after the Tel Aviv-based Physicians for Human Rights-Israel (PHR-Israel) threatened to challenge the denied permits in court. The government had previously rejected all six on two separate occasions, citing unspecified security concerns.

The six cases include a 16-year-old girl with a congenital heart defect and two women in their twenties with cancer. They all have conditions that Israeli doctors determined require treatment outside Gaza, and one of the women had previously received chemotherapy in Israel.

Since June, PHR-Israel has intervened in 138 cases of patients from Gaza whom the government had rejected for alleged security reasons. It succeeded to date in gaining exit permits for 52 of these people.

According to PHR-Israel, in some cases the person was allowed out of Gaza only if he or she submitted to interrogation by the Shabak. An article this month in the major Israeli daily newspaper Ma’ariv documented how intelligence officers at Erez crossing, the only passenger crossing in and out of Gaza, tell medical patients that they can leave only if they provide information to Israeli intelligence.

From a letter signed by Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, and sent in May 2008:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/05/12/isrlpa18808.htm

Israel has arbitrarily blocked, delayed, and harassed residents of Gaza with emergency medical needs from accessing treatment outside of the Gaza Strip. According to the World Health Organization, at least 32 people who were denied exit permits have died since October 2007.

Letter to Obama, from HRW. Dated July 2008
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/07/10/isrlpa19357.htm

Israel’s near total blockade of the Gaza Strip continues to have a severe impact on the civilian population, reducing the availability of basic goods to a trickle and severely affecting the provision of essential services. Israel, along with Egypt, sharply restricts travel abroad for Gazans, preventing departure for work, study and medical care except in humanitarian emergencies defined by Israel.

So not everyone gets out simply because they need medical care. People have died, gone blind and lost limbs as a result of being denied exit by Israel.

Do you deny that?

No, you should feel shame for such a blatant misrepresentation of my position. If you need to resort to such tactics, maybe you should reconsider your motives.

I disagree on your definition of "victim." If the things you describe were being done to Gazans for no reason at all and if Gazans had no recourse at all except to submit then you would be right in everything you say.

What utter nonsense.
Where did you get the "no reason at all" rubbish from? OBL has reasons. They're just really bad reasons.

But your not. The truth is Israel has very good reasons for blockading Gaza, and Gazans do have options available to them that would end their hardships.

Or do you deny this?

The Palestinian's option is political change. That is why civilians are targeted: to bring about political change.

Israel's security/military concerns were addressed by negotiating with Hamas.

 

[webfusion]

The closure of Israeli border crossings is done in reaction to terrorism.
The Egyptians keep their border closed because monitoring it is part of an overall deal with the Europeans to maintain a presence, and the Europeans do not feel safe at Rafiah.

The fact that persons crossed the border with Egypt at all is a violation of prior agreements on having that crossing monitored.

The Palestinian's option is political change.

Which they will not pursue, because apparently, they rather prefer to have HAMAS in charge.
A new caliphate is being built inside Gaza with the blessings of Iran: HAMASTAN.

 

[webfusion]

Tony Blair's sister-in-law is now trapped in Gaza

Whatta maroon!

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1017539.html

Lauren Booth is stuck in Gaza, since she chose to remain there rather than return with the ships she came with.
Neither Egypt nor Israel feels the need to allow her to transit their countries, so she is sitting in the Gaza Strip.

If she really wanted to make herself useful, she might wish to approach the HAMAS authorities and ask to see Cpl Gilad Shalit as a humanitarian gesture, and assure the families of this hostage that he is OK after 3 years of no-contact. That would be a nice thing for a "peace activist" to accomplish, and show that she's not just a stooge of the palestinians.

I'm not holding my breath, however.