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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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So they showed a blurry picture to a primate expert and he saw monkey lips. What a shock. Next are you going to show clouds to aerospace engineers and be surprised when they see airplanes? How about showing a baker inkblots and never expecting him to see cakes?

.

Now if the primate expert had seen cakes, or airplanes or Santa Fe freight trains in the photos then there's an argument that carries some weight against the observations of the primate expert. It is unreasonable to expect that showing a photo of a potential unknown primate to a primatoligist is going to render a response unrelated to to the subject at hand which concerned the photo of a potential unknown primate.
 
Now if the primate expert had seen cakes, or airplanes or Santa Fe freight trains in the photos then there's an argument that carries some weight against the observations of the primate expert. It is unreasonable to expect that showing a photo of a potential unknown primate to a primatoligist is going to render a response unrelated to to the subject at hand which concerned the photo of a potential unknown primate.

Way to totally ignore my point about the quality of the still not supporting the level of detail needed to identify the lips in the first place. I wasn't suggesting that the expert should have called it a cake or a plane obviously. The expert would of course be biased to see something related to his field.

It is also appereantly unreasonable to expect people to address the main points and not the extra examples. Remember, the primate guy was looking at the blurry still, the aerospace man at the clouds, and the baker at the ink blot. To suggest that I meant the monkey man should have seen a plane or a cake is so twisted that it is most likely intentional.
 
This is a hack fabrication. A blatant lie by Bigfoot enthusiasts. That photoshop joke is funnier than Creekfreak's Bigfoot photoshop hoax. Lu, why are you endorsing an obvious cartoonish fabrication?

This is one of the stills from the digital microscope photography done by Noll and Caddy "as seen on TV".

What evidence do you have it was photoshopped?

I don't know if the drawings were computer generated or hand drawn, but if they're traced (my old CorelDraw could do that), it eliminates human bias, don't you think?
 
Please explain how you would know that the suit that you show filmed under the same conditions as the PGF would be obviously a man in a suit.


Well, for starters, there's: A) the subject's body proportions, and B) the subject's fully-upright posture.

Both of those scream "fully-modern homo-sapien in a suit".

Gsuit4a.jpg


In sharp contrast, check-out Patty's 'not-so-upright' posture....her head projects forward, noticeably more than a typical human's head does...

Pattywalk2a.jpg
Pattywalk2.gif



And then, from there....if we saw the suit in motion....it would, most likely, only become more obviously a suit.


BTW, still waiting, Sweaty:

I'll have some time later tonight to respond to those posts.
 
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Both of those scream "fully-modern homo-sapien in a suit".

As might Patty if a similar still was taken. Patty is only seen from far away, with motion blur, at low resolution, with poor exposure...which Sweaty knows very well.

So why does he keep comparing modern high res stills to Patty?

In sharp contrast, check-out Patty's 'not-so-upright' posture....her head projects forward, noticeably more than a typical human's head does...

Yeah, Patty is leaning forward just like a human being often does. A mask also makes your head project forward more.

Why this is seen as unusual remains a mystery to me. I know several people who walk like that. They look like they expect to see something good on the ground...
 
The lips on this current Patty photo no longer look a cotton picking thing like Pattyshop.

They're different frames. The point Owen and Daris were making was that her face changed expression. Her lips appeared to be twitching, the profiles seem to show her mouth opening and closing. Just when they thought all the information that could be got from the film had already been got (and then some) something new was noticed. They weren't claiming bone scüncis.

The mouth in one frame looks a bit like this Don Post mask. Gosh, do you think..............?

donpost-yoda.JPG
 
In sharp contrast, check-out Patty's 'not-so-upright' posture....her head projects forward, noticeably more than a typical human's head does...

However, if a person who was not fitted for a suit is wearing a suit, they will take an unusual posture to wear the suit. In the obvious suit you keep showing, the suit is designed for the person who wears it. Therefore, it is not a good example. If the suit was not fitted for the person who wore it, then the person would have difficulties assuming an upright posture and walking in the suit.

Any padding in the suit would also make the wearer less likely to walk or appear like the photograph you keep showing.
 
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Noll and Caddy are amateurs at analyzing digital image’s, they are also amateurs at analyzing film and what they speculate on should be taken with a grain of salt. As I recall it was Noll who animately insisted upon the fact that Kodachrome could not be processed by hand in someone’s sink, yet on more than one occasion former employees from Kodak research labs have indicated quite the contrary. Noll has fed bum information into the bigfoot machine more times than I care to count. Owen Caddy should stick to informing grade-schoolers about sea life at the Edmonds beach and/or telling stories about his past African adventures, lol.

Neither Noll or Caddy seem capable of being objective in their analysis and both maintain a heavily biased opinion based on insufficient data. A huge problem with bigfoot proponents is that the vast majority seem to rely upon what the few say as gospel, and that aint right!

It’s time to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch.



m
 
Not to mention that even if the suit was tailored for a given person, this person can, if he/she wants or is asked to, assume the "Patty posture". Arguments related to posture, walk and proportions are dead ends. They are as usefull as those highly imaginative drawings of Patty's face...
 
Way to totally ignore my point about the quality of the still not supporting the level of detail needed to identify the lips in the first place. I wasn't suggesting that the expert should have called it a cake or a plane obviously. The expert would of course be biased to see something related to his field.

It is also appereantly unreasonable to expect people to address the main points and not the extra examples. Remember, the primate guy was looking at the blurry still, the aerospace man at the clouds, and the baker at the ink blot. To suggest that I meant the monkey man should have seen a plane or a cake is so twisted that it is most likely intentional.

No I wasn't suggesting that the primatoligist needed to see any of the outlandish things that can be imagined when looking at ambigous images. The idea that the primatoligist was looking at a hopelessly blurry still can only be speculated about since there is no way for anyone to indirectly observe the still in the very same way whch can only be done by direct observation. Even if the camera catptures the still in question it is yet another generation removed from what could have been seen directly.

I took your post as meaning that the PGF raw material is of such poor quality that nothing can be asertained from it. Perhaps it is better to say that the PGF material that is available in cyber space is of poor quality. Until anyone here actually views early generation stills or film nothing can be said for certain. Why not spend a little time viewing the various examples of PGF that are floating around the web and on video. You'll discover in short order that the quality of them varies tremendously in terms of resolution color balance and color accuracy and speed.
 
No argument from me about a false eye glinting or not glinting. I mention it because it has been stated that Bob H inserted glass eye in the mask to help with realism. In at least one instance a writer mentions the glass eye and points out a glint of light supposedly showing up in the face (frame 352). The glint/white spot is usually visable in the blow ups of the face in frame 352.

My point is that arguments are made against the film that based on the resouluition render those arguments as usless and hollow as the most fanciful. Arrow points to supposed glint.


[URL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1875548b569b4a08d3.jpg[/URL]
Why did he place a glass eye on the neck as well, one wonders?
 
As might Patty if a similar still was taken. Patty is only seen from far away, with motion blur, at low resolution, with poor exposure...QUOTE]

Well since we can't bring Patty into better focus we can make a current decent photo of a Bigfoot like subject emulate what is seenh in the PGF. The photo posted has been blurrd and noise has been added. So what do we have now? We have a noisy blurred photo of an upright walking Bigfoot like creature whose hands and legs are too small for the scale of the rest of the suit and of course the feet are way too big against the scale of the hands and arms. Photo blurr and noise does not negate the upright marching to the drum posture of the subject.

If you could bring Patty into HDV quality and crispness of image she would still be hunched over lumbering her way across the field of view. True that the PGF lack of image distinction may hide certain thing but the basics of posture movement and gait are not among those things.

 
Noll and Caddy are amateurs at analyzing digital image’s, they are also amateurs at analyzing film and what they speculate on should be taken with a grain of salt.

Rick sounds pretty knowledgable here:

"Rick Noll: John Green gave me a copy he had of the Patterson Gimlin film, with the permission of Mrs. Patterson, to take microscopic pictures of each frame. I went there in person to pick it up. Drove to Canada. John was interested in finding those frames where he could get a reasonable estimate of the IM index of the creature. I had to build a transport stage for the film, which was on a reel. I used a 6-megapixel camera to shoot RAW formatted images through a microscope. Since the camera operator (Roger Patterson) was moving through the scene, as was the subject, the film stage had to be moved many many times through the process. It took about two months to get the images.

RAW images are not sharp or color corrected like consumer jpg files are. John Green could not use RAW images, so I just gave him unprocessed jpg files. These are highly compressed images and can contain artifacts from the process.

This was the first part of the job John asked of me. We were then going to select the very best and make film negatives of those images. I stopped short though.

The film I worked with was the same one used in “Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science.” It had been optically blown up at some point by John Green. In order to do better work and stabilize the photographs, I told John that we needed a better copy. I needed more of the background to align between frames.

I went to Mrs. Patterson and asked about this as well. She said that she would look into it but she was also dealing with a new book soon to come out on Roger Patterson and the film, so she had her hands filled right then.

She does have a master copy and was willing to make another, but she would have had to come to Seattle with it and stay until it was made.

Melissa: To your knowledge, has anyone ever worked directly with the actual film itself?

Rick Noll: There is a rumor that Bruce Bonney used the original film to make the 12 Cibachromes that Rene Dahinden wanted made. But that is about it that I know of. I remember that Rene told me that he had to go to California and pick up the film right before the UBC conference in 1978. The book that came out of the conference, “Manlike Monsters on Trial,” used the Cibachromes as plates in it.

I suspect that Bruce Bonney used a product called Scratch-All to hide the scratches in whatever film he used before printing onto the Cibachrome paper. Unfortunately, this also degrades the image clarity. The Cibachromes do not have, or they are highly reduced, the scratches that the film has.

I have also seen some stills taken from the film that have to have been altered by hand, details drawn in artistic interpretation.

Melissa: Please tell us your background and experience with Film and Video.

Rick Noll: I use to own a camera shop and professional photofinishing lab in California and know quite a bit about the process. I had to take Kodak classes in processing and slide duplication. I know all of the pros and cons... what is and is not possible.

Melissa: What is the difference between "stabilization" and a ".gif"?

Rick Noll: Stabilization usually refers to arresting subject or camera movement through a sequence of contiguous image frames in video or film works. A gif file is a format that can simulate video like movement over the Internet without the tremendous file size and resources needed to show an actual video stream."

http://txsasquatch.blogspot.com/2006/12/interview-with-rick-noll.html

But what do I know? I'm just an amateur.

Owen's presentation on the "New Face of Patty" drew at least one comment that he's done his homework.

Just how did Owen and Rick induce the esteemed Dr. Swindler to appear on national TV and deliver information that is just so obviously "woo"?
 
"The next speaker was Owen Caddy who, in association with Rick Noll, has performed the most rigorous and revealing computer enhancements of frames from the Patterson/Gimlin film to date. He began his presentation with a long, but fascinating explanation of how images are recorded to film, the resolving capabilities of the Kodak II film that Patterson used and how its four layers of color emulsion are “stacked” on each frame of film. Before showing any of his enhancements, Mr. Caddy also diagramed the process by which each enhancement was made.

The results of the enhancements (all of which focused on Patti’s upper chest and head) were eye-opening, to say the least. His work has literally put a new face on the creature in the film. He demonstrated quite convincingly that the creature’s mouth is considerably lower down on its face than any current interpretations would have it. Using a considerable number of photos of chimpanzees taken during his own work with them (unfortunately, I was never able to catch Mr. Caddy’s credentials, though it seemed he had spent a number of years working directly with chimps in primate research), he proved (to me, at least) that the prognathism evident in all of the Great Apes can, under many conditions, present the appearance of a false mouth that is much higher up on the face than their actual mouths. This optical illusion -- caused by light reflecting off their upper lips at the point where the lip presses against the protruding ridge in the upper jaw -- most often occurs when a subject is brightly lit from above. Since the subject in the P/G film is lit by bright sunlight coming from above, this false mouth is what has long been interpreted as its actual mouth. But Caddy’s enhancements show the true mouth is considerably below the supposed upper lip -- giving the creature a much more ape-like appearance than previously assumed.

Some of Caddy’s enhancements show the creature pursing its lips (a common primate expression of annoyance or fear), and opening its mouth several times. To my eye -- and in Caddy’s line-drawing interpretations of what the enhanced images show -- the creature’s upper lip pulls back in a very ape-like manner when it opens its mouth. Caddy also said that the enhancements suggest the creature possessed deep wrinkles around and below its eyes.

Mr. Caddy’s enhancements were made from a second-generation, enlarged copy of the P/G film (the same copy made from John Green’s first generation copy that was used for the Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science TV show). He is continuing his work, hoping to enhance other portions of the creature’s anatomy. Unfortunately, due to possible copyright conflicts, it is not known when, or even if, Mr. Caddy will be able to publish his findings."

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/reviews/seattle_meeting.htm
 
No I wasn't suggesting that the primatoligist needed to see any of the outlandish things that can be imagined when looking at ambigous images. The idea that the primatoligist was looking at a hopelessly blurry still can only be speculated about since there is no way for anyone to indirectly observe the still in the very same way whch can only be done by direct observation. Even if the camera catptures the still in question it is yet another generation removed from what could have been seen directly.

I took your post as meaning that the PGF raw material is of such poor quality that nothing can be asertained from it. Perhaps it is better to say that the PGF material that is available in cyber space is of poor quality. Until anyone here actually views early generation stills or film nothing can be said for certain. Why not spend a little time viewing the various examples of PGF that are floating around the web and on video. You'll discover in short order that the quality of them varies tremendously in terms of resolution color balance and color accuracy and speed.


I never said that nothing could be obtained from it, but that lips certainly couldn't from that still. I've seen many versions of the film and am well aware of video formatting artifacts, etc, that have been introduced through the dissemination process. However, that doesn't have any bearing at all because the expert in question was looking at the same material I was criticizing. Like I was chastised for not knowing just from looking at it, it was taken right from Monster Quest.

Why do bigfoot proponents keep acting like all these problems go away with a 'better' version of the film that no one gets to see? If they don't have access to it, how do they know what it shows?
 
Regarding Dfoot's various activities, let me just say that, with all due respect for his determination and his research work, his methodology of presentation and the way he structures his arguments is simply so different from mine that trying to reconsile his arguments with mine is an "apples vs oranges" thing to me, and I've never been able to reach any kind of foundation mutual understanding with him on this debate.

Okay, let me try to clear it up for you: Dfoot showed that you can create the illusion of having a long arm depending on how you swing said arm/position your body. You can easily see this in action for yourself by posing in front of a mirror while using the poses Dfoot adopted as a guide. You have used some frames that seem to exhibit this in action, especially frame 352. This means that your poser figure's proportions (at least for the arms) might not be accurate.

Secondly, he showed that you can only have your hands partially in a gorilla glove and still make it move as if your hand was fully in it. tube did something similar using gardening gloves. This could mean that you should at least test what would happen if your poser figure only partially had his hands in the glove area of the Bigfoot suit.

I hope that your not addressing my point about that Bigfoot costume (especially the leg area) means that you're trying to fit a poser figure into that Bigfoot costume so you can get back to me on that.

On your question about film frames in or out of sequence, I don't see that as a factor which would affect the analysis. If you feel it might, I'd be willing to listen to why you thought it might.

Well, just off the top of my head, there's the possibility that not using the frames in sequence could result in you missing data/images showing that the arms aren't always as long as they appear in other frames (like how you noted the head shape seemed to change at some points). I vaguely recall something like this coming up when you tried to figure out the shape of Patty's head/nose.

There's also the potential for you to be accused of cherry-picking your data. I recall that you expressed concern over being accused of this when I suggested that you contact Bob Burns, so I figured that I should point this out to you now.

Another issue that just sprung to mind is your seeming lack of a "control." In other words, an example of you fitting a poser figure into a picture/pictures of a person in a gorilla/bigfoot-type costume and showing that your results match up to the proportions of the person inside the costume.

Gorillamen.com seems pretty knowledgable about Steve Calvert, so you might be able to use his appearance in a Three Stooges short called "Hot Ice" and some pictures of him from various parts of the site (such as this) to act as your control (and get your information on his proportions from the webmaster of the gorillamen website). Or, since I have some data on Bob H. handy, I can post some footage (and at least one picture) of him both in and outside of the Morris costume and you can tinker around with that.

Oh, and this might be of interest to you regarding the thigh size issue. Here's the picture missing from that article and here's another picture of that Godzilla suit.
 
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Mr. Caddy’s enhancements were made from a second-generation, enlarged copy of the P/G film (the same copy made from John Green’s first generation copy that was used for the Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science TV show). He is continuing his work, hoping to enhance other portions of the creature’s anatomy. Unfortunately, due to possible copyright conflicts, it is not known when, or even if, Mr. Caddy will be able to publish his findings."
]http://www.
[urlbigfootencounters.com/reviews/seattle_meeting.htm[/url]

From that link and the statements, I can gather that Mr. Caddy doesn't know much about copyright as pertaining to analysis, and that Mr. Gimlin knows little about guns. Seriously, 30.06 of 185 grain will take down most things, unless he's a piss poor shot or loaded the ammo himself with too little powder.
 
Crowlogic:

Nice job on the picture! Am I the only one here who thinks that the blurred fur resembles Patty's?

LAL said:
Just how did Owen and Rick induce the esteemed Dr. Swindler to appear on national TV and deliver information that is just so obviously "woo"?

This is just a guess, but I'd say that they pointed out the pareidolia-enduced "details" to him and he thought he saw them as well. Then, not knowing that masks can allow for eyelid and mouth movements and that the movements seen on the film seemed to be due to background noise and what's known here as "peyote vision," Dr. Swindler assumed that Patty couldn't be someone in a costume.
 
From that link and the statements, I can gather that Mr. Caddy doesn't know much about copyright as pertaining to analysis, and that Mr. Gimlin knows little about guns. Seriously, 30.06 of 185 grain will take down most things, unless he's a piss poor shot or loaded the ammo himself with too little powder.

Look at the date. According to a cyber friend who saw him in the Washington State Capital Museum program on "Giants in the Mountains" "The Search for Sasquatch". Bigfoot Expeditions: January 26, 2008, he's paid for rights.

If you're going to play Shoot the Messenger, you're going to have to get a bigger gun.
 
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