Is U.S. at war with Russia?

[thesyntaxera]

Here's a quick summery I gave in another thread, over at politics:

- With the fall of the USSR, Georgia declares independence.
- Shortly after, South Ossetia declares independence from Georgia, with the desire to unite with North Ossetia in Russia.
- Georgia responds with artillery attacks, driving north approximately half the population.
- A compromise is reached, where South Ossetia is internationally recognised as an autonomous region with a peacekeeping force.
- The population continues to favour a united Ossetia, under Russian protection. (as indicated by internationally monitored polls)

- Georgian president is elected with the promise to bring South Ossetia back under Georgian control.
- Georgia attacks South Ossetia with artillery, killing civilians (many with Russian passports) and Russian peacekeepers.
- Russia counterattacks. And does it better.

Thanks for the summary. I am still a bit confused as to why the United States is so sympathetic to the Georgians, who by your telling seem like the A-holes in this situation.

McCain Declaring(to paraphrase) "that all americans are Georgians" doesn't really help much either. Does he, or anyone in the US government understand what is going on there?

 

[JoeEllison]

Thanks for the summary. I am still a bit confused as to why the United States is so sympathetic to the Georgians, who by your telling seem like the A-holes in this situation.

American antagonism towards the Russians, and not much else? It seems like American foreign policy is to destabilize the world as much as possible, and this is just another example of that.

McCain Declaring(to paraphrase) "that all americans are Georgians" doesn't really help much either. Does he, or anyone in the US government understand what is going on there?

McCain is a war-mongering moron. He's always been a moron, and age has only made him a confused moron. From what I remember of what I've read about him, he wanted to start WW III during the Vietnam War, by attacking Soviet ships, and considered the civilians who stopped him from triggering a war with the USSR to be "complete idiots."

 

[Texas]

American antagonism towards the Russians, and not much else? It seems like American foreign policy is to destabilize the world as much as possible, and this is just another example of that.

McCain is a war-mongering moron. He's always been a moron, and age has only made him a confused moron. From what I remember of what I've read about him, he wanted to start WW III during the Vietnam War, by attacking Soviet ships, and considered the civilians who stopped him from triggering a war with the USSR to be "complete idiots."

Trust you to root for the Russians. Yes a JFK almost started WW3 by driving the almost firing on Soviet Ships off of Cuba.

 

[senorpogo]

Russia has now retreated back to Russia and any other peacekeepers will be from NATO or the UN.

That's not what happened at all. Where did you get that?

The fifth point of the agreed upon cease fire places Russia’s armed forces at the positions preceding the beginning of the military actions, i.e. in South Ossetia. The sixth point demands a start for the "international discussion of issues of the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia by means of guaranteeing their solid security".

Sounds like Putin is laying the groundwork for a little lawful land snatching.

Hailie vs. United States. Hailie: 7, United States: nothing.

 

[JoeEllison]

Trust you to root for the Russians.

We can trust you to lie at every opportunity. Show me where I "rooted for the Russians." You can't, because I didn't, and you have no integrity at all.

 

[senorpogo]

McCain Declaring(to paraphrase) "that all americans are Georgians" doesn't really help much either. Does he, or anyone in the US government understand what is going on there?

I think McCain is very much an old Cold Warrior and refuses to see Russia as anything other than "the enemy".

But, to be fair, I think from a political point of view, he's saying the right thing as far as winning over voters. We don't do nuance well. So, "Russia is bad" plays a lot better than, "let me illustrate the complexities of the geopolitical situation in the region around the Caucasus Mountains"....

Sad, but true.

 

[JoeEllison]

That's not what happened at all. Where did you get that?

He probably just made it up. That's what liars do.

 

[senorpogo]

We can trust you to lie at every opportunity. Show me where I "rooted for the Russians." You can't, because I didn't, and you have no integrity at all.

I don't understand this line of reasoning at all (the one you're defending yourself against) - how is objectively evaluating the situation "rooting for the Russians"?

 

[senorpogo]

He probably just made it up. That's what liars do.

Someone at a board devoted to critical thinking just making stuff up? Well, I never....

 

[JoeEllison]

I don't understand this line of reasoning at all (the one you're defending yourself against) - how is objectively evaluating the situation "rooting for the Russians"?

You said it yourself:

We don't do nuance well. So, "Russia is bad" plays a lot better than, "let me illustrate the complexities of the geopolitical situation in the region around the Caucasus Mountains"....

For some people, if you don't get on board with McCain, or whichever right-wing retard is coming up with the official spin, then you must be "siding with the enemy." It is the same "with us or against us" nonsense that plays well with the low-IQ set, and infuriates anyone with intelligence and intellectual integrity.

I'm not 100% up on the complexities of the situation either, but it doesn't look like there IS a "good side" for us to get behind... which is why it is galling that McCain(who has shown a remarkable level of ignorance on every subject possible this year) has decided to "pick a side" for all Americans. What we need is diplomacy and a cooling off of tensions on both sides, not McCain escalating the situation by throwing in for one side.

 

[senorpogo]

For some people, if you don't get on board with McCain, or whichever right-wing retard is coming up with the official spin, then you must be "siding with the enemy." It is the same "with us or against us" nonsense that plays well with the low-IQ set, and infuriates anyone with intelligence and intellectual integrity.

I know, I know...

I just can't comprehend the cognitive dissonance, especially after all the stuff we've pulled in the last eight years.

 

[JoeEllison]

I know, I know...

I just can't comprehend the cognitive dissonance, especially after all the stuff we've pulled in the last eight years.

One of the fundamental problems with people like McCain is that their faith in their worldview is unshakable, and that their continual failures only reinforce that faith. McCain is convinced that the reason for the failure of his worldview lies in the fact that people disagree with it and have stood in its way... not that there's anything possibly wrong with the ideas he holds. He thinks that we could have "won" in Vietnam if only we'd done more and more of what obviously wasn't working, and that provoking the Soviets would have also led to victory. After the years of near-total control of the federal government by Republicans has led to disasters on every possible issue, McCain believes that the problems can be solved if we buckle down and do exactly what Bush did only more so. "Action" is seen as "strength" even(or especially) when it is impulsive and poorly-reasoned. Actually thinking about things and attempting to come up with a reasonable solution is considered "weak"... because you don't solve problems by thinking, you pummel people with aggression until they sit down and shut up. And that's why people like McCain cannot solve any problem, ever. All they can do is create new ones.

 

[geni]

Thanks for the summary. I am still a bit confused as to why the United States is so sympathetic to the Georgians, who by your telling seem like the A-holes in this situation.

Nah should have seen what the Ossetians did to the Ingush.

Georgia has an oil and gas pipeline which is kinda handy for getting caspian sea oil without gooing through russia. The goverment is also somewhat pro western (how pro-western depends on who you belive) and we generaly support pro-western states near russia becuase we would like there to be more of them.

 

[Texas]

That's not what happened at all. Where did you get that?

The fifth point of the agreed upon cease fire places Russia’s armed forces at the positions preceding the beginning of the military actions, i.e. in South Ossetia. The sixth point demands a start for the "international discussion of issues of the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia by means of guaranteeing their solid security".

Sounds like Putin is laying the groundwork for a little lawful land snatching.

Hailie vs. United States. Hailie: 7, United States: nothing.

The US has no dog in the fight but taking SO was not Putin's objective, he used it to try to get rid of the Georgian government and when the world didn't fall in line as it did during the cold war he took his little tin soldiers and ran to the UN. It was no accident that he "accepted" the Ceasefire" the day after 5 former soviet states heads of state showed up in Georgia's capitol to show solidarity with the most notable being Poland and Estonia. Both members of the EU and Poland a member of NATO. The Eastern European nations that have joined the EU are not as prone to appeasement as the Western members especially Poland. Putin let his mouth write a check his military couldn't cash.

 

[egslim]

Poland, Estonia and Ukraine have now pledged their support for Georgia so the brilliant Putin has overplayed his hand unless he wants to try his hand with all three 2 of which are EU nations and Poland a member of NATO.

What have you been smoking?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7557457.stm
Russia has held all the cards in this conflict and looks set to end up with both a diplomatic and a military victory, says the BBC's Caroline Wyatt in Moscow.

It has shown its power within the region and the weakness of the West, which has been unable and unwilling to come to Georgia's aid with anything other than words of support, our correspondent adds.

Georgian troops will no longer operate in South Ossetia. That pretty much frees the way for the South Ossetians to declare independence from Georgia at some point in the future, since Georgia isn't going to launch a third attack at the province either.
Future Georgian governments will pay more respect to Moscow, the corrent government is unlikely to survive the next election - losing a war generally does not sit well with the electorate.
Any prospect of Georgia joining NATO is now definately off the table. And other neighbouring governments will take notice.

Basically, Russia has performed a quick and limited military intervention resulting in a change of the political status quo ante bellum, almost entirely to its own advantage.

 

[egslim]

Thanks for the summary. I am still a bit confused as to why the United States is so sympathetic to the Georgians, who by your telling seem like the A-holes in this situation.

The Georgians certainly are A-holes. The country has several separist regions inhabited by people who really don't want to be part of Georgia. Unfortunately for them, Georgia has bigger guns.
Nor is the country a shining beacon of democracy. Georgia is more like a miniature of Russia in that regard.

South Ossetia is controlled by thugs and inhabited by smugglers.

And Russia is, well, Russia. South Ossetia is merely a pawn for them.

The whole conflict is basically one of A-holes beating up A-holes, who then got beaten up in turn by other A-holes and cried for help from mainly the US - Europe had wisely blocked their entry in NATO.

 

[senorpogo]

The Georgians certainly are A-holes. The country has several separist regions inhabited by people who really don't want to be part of Georgia. Unfortunately for them, Georgia has had bigger guns.

Fixed that for you.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

...

I find curious the amount of bombast coming from NATO and Europe. It isn't as though the Russians started this latest edition of hate and discontent in SO. I may be getting skewed news coverage, but IIRC, first blood was drawn by the Georgians in calling the bluff of Russian peacekeepers in Ossetia, only to find out that unlike UN peacekeepers, Russian peacekeepers have teeth, and a political will to punish the careless.

DR

Good point. Was the action in Ossetia action authored in the US?

Bush can speak for his own nation until that nation decides he should be removed from office. He needs to realise that the USA has no mandate to speak for the world on international matters in any sphere.

Given the failure of NATO in this instance perhaps it time that NATO was disbanded?

Also, given the amount of bombast coming from the USA about the UN isn't it time the US left the UN and carried on plowing its own furrow?

 

[SteveGrenard]

One of the fundamental problems with people like McCain is that their faith in their worldview is unshakable, and that their continual failures only reinforce that faith. McCain is convinced that the reason for the failure of his worldview lies in the fact that people disagree with it and have stood in its way... not that there's anything possibly wrong with the ideas he holds. He thinks that we could have "won" in Vietnam if only we'd done more and more of what obviously wasn't working, and that provoking the Soviets would have also led to victory. After the years of near-total control of the federal government by Republicans has led to disasters on every possible issue, McCain believes that the problems can be solved if we buckle down and do exactly what Bush did only more so. "Action" is seen as "strength" even(or especially) when it is impulsive and poorly-reasoned. Actually thinking about things and attempting to come up with a reasonable solution is considered "weak"... because you don't solve problems by thinking, you pummel people with aggression until they sit down and shut up. And that's why people like McCain cannot solve any problem, ever. All they can do is create new ones.

It also helps that Randy Scheunemann is McCain Campaign's Chief Foreign Policy Advisor. This is the same Randy Scheunemann who, together with his partner, are registered foreign agents or lobbyists for Georgia. They received $200,000 from Georgia (cash) last April and the in the previous some few years about half a million to represent Georgia in Washington. It's no wonder the President of Georgia feels he is not getting his money's worth from the U.S. in terms of weapons and troops to defend him. What a farce.

For someone who once pledged to get rid of influence peddling lobbyists in Washington McCain never ceases to amaze.

This is enough to want to make you puke up your lunch, irregardless of who has the moral high ground in this conflict, Russia or Georgia.....and is ironic as well. The irony of McCain's criticism of one sovereign nation attacking another is obviously lost among all those lobbyist dollars cited above:

Speaking at a town hall meeting in York, Pennsylvania, the Republican candidate for US president revealed that he had spoken to the president of the "brave little nation", Mikheil Saakashvili, offering his support.

"I know I speak for every American when I say to him, 'today, we are all Georgians'," he told the rapturous crowd.

"Over the past several days, we have seen that international aggression is, tragically, not a thing of the past. We thought we'd put a lot of that behind us at the end of the Twentieth Century.

"But now we find it's rearing its ugly head in the Twenty-first. The small nation of Georgia has been subject to Russian attacks that threaten its very existence."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...Russia%3A+Pelosi%2C+Boehner%2C+Hoyer%2C+Blunt

 

[CFLarsen]

It also helps that Randy Scheunemann is McCain Campaign's Chief Foreign Policy Advisor. This is the same Randy Scheunemann who, together with his partner, are registered foreign agents or lobbyists for Georgia. They received $200,000 from Georgia (cash) last April and the in the previous some few years about half a million to represent Georgia in Washington. It's no wonder the President of Georgia feels he is not getting his money's worth from the U.S. in terms of weapons and troops to defend him. What a farce.

For someone who once pledged to get rid of influence peddling lobbyists in Washington McCain never ceases to amaze.

This is enough to want to make you puke up your lunch, irregardless of who has the moral high ground in this conflict, Russia or Georgia.....and is ironic as well. The irony of McCain's criticism of one sovereign nation attacking another is obviously lost among all those lobbyist dollars cited above:

Now, it's a bad thing that the US isn't going into the war?